Spew All About Politics Here

[Anathema]

If a system would cover the world, wouldn't that frighten you just a bit? Hitler used democracy to destroy democracy, imagine that at a larger scale.

[Acriku]

Well if it does turn that way, there would have to be a lot more than one Hitler-people since it isn't a dictatorship.

[nemafakei]

... and this councils system cannot turn into one, either (remember Weimar wasn't a dictatorship).

Well, not withoout REALLY good luck and a good few supporters.

[emprworm]

"The team that makes the slower chips doesn't lose, becuase their chips sell for less money"

Yes, yes, I'm not saying that there should be a single team of designers and one design of every type of product from which to base everything. I'm saying that the two teams should swap their designs and such information as well, in case one can pick up tips and ideas from the other. Then, they can combine their efforts while still

then all you have is one big team and competition is lost completely, hence the driving force to improve and excel has perished. Thats like me playing this game and telling my opponents what I'm going to do next, and they telling me what they are going to do next. No skill will be gained. A team in and of itself is meaningless unless there is something to compete against...period.

You cant have a team without a competition. The whole concept of team is lost without it. If your government existed 1000 years ago, it would still be in the dark ages

Your government is no different than a primitive native south american tribe. One big happy family sharing everything. Why do you think they never advance?

Maybe that is good for them, but not for me.

Competition brought this world technology and advancement, Nema, and you are just going to have to accept that.

[nemafakei]

"the driving force to improve and excel has perished"

There is the driving force that, if they don't, they get no payment. There is the driving force that, if they excel, they will acheive their goals.

"Competition brought this world technology and advancement, Nema"

It also brought and will bring war and poverty (even if capitalism did not).

There is no reason why co-operation cannot also bring advancement in the future - and in some cases, it has. (Theories of evolution, for one.)

Besides, just because something hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it can't.

"If your government existed 1000 years ago"

I know; it is only in conditions like those of today and the forseeable future that my government can do well.

"Your government is no different than a primitive native south american tribe"

Surprisingly enough, little scientific research is carried out in a native S. Ametrican tribe, because it does not directly produce food, and there is no excess with which to feed scientists. Globally, we have slight excess - enough to reseach and develop new ideas and progress.

Remember also that progress is not the same as growth and consumption - we cannot keep growing forever, so we must use science to become more efficient. (This is a note, not a direct refutation of your argument.)

"A team in and of itself is meaningless unless there is something to compete against...period"

Why? A team is there to complete a task - to compete only against failure.

[emprworm]

Nema, I am more open to Edric's government than yours. You think that people will be motivated to excel based upon getting paid? Lol. By what standard? They will be motivated to do just what it takes to get the job done. Progress will be eliminated. They will excel at making 75MZ chips. And you will pay them well. They will never invent a 2.5GZ chip- none will ever exist. You would be UNFAIR to not pay them well because they dont make faster chips. They may tell you "Our scientists are unable to make faster chips, this is the maximum speed we can make. We forsee that one day, we will be able to increase speeds to 100MZ. That may be years away at this point, but we will work hard towards that goal." And your MASSIVELY staffed government which makes subjective decisions on "effort" will have no rational basis upon which to deny them due payment. Your little deception will never be discovered because you will have no alternative basis upon which to know that your system is lethargic and subversive to human progress.

Only until a group of people succeed from your government and form their own state which contains competitive elements will your government finally realize how utterly impotent it has been. Your failure Nema is to accuse competition of being "bad." You have some very serious philosophical errors. Competition is neutral . It is neither bad nor good. Depending upon how it is used makes all the difference. A knife is neutral. It can be used to prepare food to save lives, or it can kill. You cannot just make blanket assumptions that competition is harmful. This is yet another one of your errors. You think 6 billion people will go along with something as crazy as that you are delusion. Since your are unable to invent a better system that contains competition, your system is inferior. I am open to a new system than my system. But that new system must contain competition. Again, you seem to imply that US capitalism is to blame for third world poverty. I challenged that statement earlier and noticed you did not respond to it.

[nemafakei]

I say that friendly competition is good!

Competition when used for greed is not.

"to get the job done"

Yes, then they get the next job done! This is the progress you seek. Each job may complete itself, but work goes on - more jobs become available as each job is accomplished.

"They may tell you "Our scientists are unable to make faster chips, this is the maximum speed we can make""

Those who design chips will be paid to design what people in other groups say is possible. It's stupid to let people choose their own payscales; the point is about my ubiqitous division of power is that the innovators will be paid to innovate, researchers will be paid to research (incl. how much is possible at this time), etc. They will trade information, to help each other, but they are not one 'team' as you assume - they have different jobs - they will likely

And there will be more than one set - they will work independantly, publishing their information...

"And your MASSIVELY staffed government"

These are just taken from the population, bar some civil servants, if that. These also account for all the managerial jobs in the world -so do not simply think of the staffing as just the executive government.

[emprworm]

I say that friendly competition is good!

ok, we are making proress finally in this debate. It is good to hear you acknowledge the healthy aspects of competition. I am also hoping you will acknowledge the necessary elements of it as well. You said earlier "cooperation is superior to competition" I can go along with that. But I add, "competitive cooperation is superior to isolated cooperation". If you system contains only isolated cooperation without competitive cooperation, then human progress will come to a crawl. We know empirically that the species homosapien thrives under competition. it is just part of what we are. We also know philosophically that competition is not evil unto itself. A government must strive to utilize the components of human nature to the best possible good. Since human progress is inexorably linked to competition, a good government will strive to foster this quality of human nature, and not squelch it. Any attempt to squelch such a critical component of human nature will result in total collapse. The purpose of government is not to change the nature of a man, assuming it could in the first place.

Competition when used for greed is not.

I have witheld this next question from you and Edric intentionally for a long time, but I think the time has finally come. I would like to ask you to define greed.

Those who design chips will be paid to design what people in other groups say is possible.

progress will come to a crawl. Since the scientist who went to college for 8 years and has devoted his life to study gets the same pay as the guy who never went to college in his life who is out sweeping streets (o but he works hard at it!), the only thing that will happen is that there will be resentment building up and your little researchers whom you picture in your mind as a big happy group smiling little busy bees working away in jubilent bliss will in actuality be a group of demoralized people who will do just what it takes to cause your government 'effort-monitors' into thinking they are working hard. Whatever standard your 'effort-monitors' subjectively come up with that gives them the pay...the scientists will meet that standard only. They will not go beyond. In fact, I argue that they would never even become scientists.

It's stupid to let people choose their own payscales

oh, now were getting somewhere. Lets take a small little family restaraunt out in the Holland countryside. Who sets the menu? Who sets the price for a glass of orange juice? Who came up with the idea to put a little restaraunt there and what incentive would they have to do so? What incentive would the chef have to prepare fine quality cuisine over military-style preparation if prices are the same regardless? What is the exact job description of the "effort monitor" government worker that determines whether or not the chef is 'trying hard enough' to make high quality blueberry pancakes that sell for prices he has no control over?

man, you have a lot to sort out.

"And your MASSIVELY staffed government"

These are just taken from the population, bar some civil servants, if that. These also account for all the managerial jobs in the world -so do not simply think of the staffing as just the executive government.

?

a massive disconguitous beaurocracy that will know no limits of lethargy. They will be the ones that "decide" what has value and what doesn't? John Smith is the guy that decides what a glass of orange juice will cost, and just what determines that? Your government staff "decides" what is in demand and what isnt? You will tell people "THIS has value....You *WANT* this!"...?? You just tossed out supply and demand. I see no way....no way at all that your economy would function. Again, what if I make my own CD of my own music and everyone in society wants a copy. Who are you to tell me that if they are all willing to pay 10 bucks for it that I cannot sell it for 10 bucks? Or is there no such thing as private property? I get it: i dont even own my own music!!

[Edric O]

Progress has no inner value. Progess is not an end in itself, it is only a tool by which to increase happiness. I do not understand why you put so much emphasis on progress for the sake of progress.

The species Homo Sapiens thrives under competition. True. But the individual Homo Sapiens has a lot to suffer from excessive competition.

Emprworm, you see problems that do not exist. You seem to assume that the only way to get humans to do something is by a carrot-and-stick policy. You think we are animals driven only by personal interest. But not all of us are immoral egocentrists. (funny thing, that - you argue directly against the "common good" principles of Christianity)

Would you only work if motivated by greed?

Greed = An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth.

(dictionary.com)

[emprworm]

WORLD MANUAL NUMBER 1,233,456,998B REVISION 22C

UNITED WORLD GOVERNMENT REGULATION 93,369H: EFFORT AND QUALITY REGULATIONS GOVERNING PREPARATION AND PUBLIC SERVING OF PERISHABLE FOOD

SECTION 837: SERVING BREAKFAST AT GOVERNMENT CLEARED RESTARAUNT FACILITIES

CHAPTER 12,449: PANCAKES

PRICES IN THIS CHAPTER ARE ONLY GOOD FROM 10/2002 THROUGH 03/2003. PLEASE SEE YOUR ASSIGNED EFFORT MONITOR TO RECEIVE NEW PRICING REPLACEMENTS 2 WEEKS PRIOR TO EXPIRATION.

12449.1 Defintion of and Standard Pricing for Pancakes

12449.1.1 A pancake is a flat flour cake made of thin batter and cooked (as on a griddle) on both sides.

12449.1.2 Base Pricing for Pancakes: 1 World Unit per CM in diameter (eg, a 10CM pancake will be priced at 10 World Units)

12449.1.3 Minimum Adult Serving Size will be no less than 4oz. Number of pancakes may be

determined by the chef, but must not be less than 4oz. (4 1oz cakes or 1 4oz cake will be

charged equal and both count as one serving)

12449.2 Authorized Price Additions for Toppings. Chefs may add to their menu prices the following amounts if prepared with the pancakes.

12449.2.1 Fruit Adders (per ounce):

[Edric O]

ROFLMAO!!!! :)

You actually took time to write all that? You're overreacting, Emprworm.

It's not going to be like that at all. And besides, nobody is ever going to force you to live in it if you don't want to.

[emprworm]

Edric, please read it very close. Every line in there was intentional and is supported completely by what I believe Nema's (don't know about yours) philosophy is. It is horrible. I have utter fear of Nema's government. It is worse than slavery

[Edric O]

Ah, I see. I've read it and I understand your point.

You're saying that any attempt to make a detailed evaluation of effort would lead to something as insane as that, right? Well, it is not my intention (and I'm sure that it is not Nema's intention either) to regulate prices as strictly as that. You are indeed overreacting.

To put it simply, those regulations are FAR more strict that anything I could ever imagine. You are right, a system like the one you just described would be unbearable. But that... *thing* is NOT my system, nor is it Nema's.

[emprworm]

i dont see how it could not be your system. Obviously if someone is going to put berry toppings on their pancakes, they have to pay more for those berries. pure maple syrup is an indulgence. Would it even exist in your government? Whipped cream is very perishable. If a restaurant had whipped cream, it would have to buy it, adding extra cost. whipped cream that wasnt used quickly would go bad, forcing them to toss it out, adding even more cost.

therefore prices must be increased for pancakes with berries or whipped cream. Or in your society are such "indulgences" considered luxury and hence illegal? So all pancakes will be made with the same flour-water-sugar slop dough served with government issue artificial maple syrup? And if someone got paid the same amount for making regular crappy pancakes as a chef carefully preparing berry-topped pancakes with whipped cream, then no one....i repeat no one will ever serve the fancy pancakes because it isnt worth it. You will need a government regulation that grants extra incentive to the chefs that put berries on their pancakes.

sounds rediculous? yea, but thats exactly how i see your system running on a PRACTICAL level. you like to talk about things on a broad level- it sounds so nice and dandy, but thats not how life is. we live on a PRACTICAL level, Edric. Not a broad one.

[nemafakei]

"WORLD MANUAL NUMBER 1,233,456,998B REVISION 22C"

Hehe. There is something you miss. There will be little requirement of such things - the system is intrinsically self-righting so that this sort of thing cannot happen, or cannot be enforced. Councils are made up of fairly normal people, who would not see point in making such silly guidelines.

The government will always set a price range for the products, and leave it up to the discretion of the proprietors to price it properly. Shop or restaurant managers will be paid by the government, so there is no point in them overpricing customers, so Regulations like "12449.3 Pricing Adjustments for Artistic Preparations" will be unnecessary. General principles, like "nice decoration should cost about 10% extra" will be expressed, but such detail is not and never will be needed in any council decisions. Council decisions are 'the spirit of the law', not 'the letter of the law' - and are dynamic, so they may be changed if new conditions or examples arise. A lot of it will be purely case law.

"Who sets the menu? Who sets the price for a glass of orange juice?"

The proprietor. The community will have decided the basic price range of fruit juice, and the proprietor can alter it accordingly. If he has good reason to stray from the exact range, fair enough, and should not be punished if he gives this valid reson.

"You just tossed out supply and demand."

Ah, but no. If there is demand, then it will be decided that more will be employed to supply it. If demand is predicted, the same will happen. If a drop in demand is predicted, then fewer jobs will be required to make the product.

Greed...

Greed is the irrational want for personal gain beyond necessities, and expecially into luxury*, at the expense of others. Greed is the manipulation of responsibilities and duties by decisions based personal ambition, rather than sensible reason.

* Personal benefit disproportionally higher than expense.

[emprworm]

Hehe. There is something you miss. There will be little requirement of such things - the system is intrinsically self-righting so that this sort of thing cannot happen, or cannot be enforced. Councils are made up of fairly normal people, who would not see point in making such silly guidelines.

but those regulations would be required. How else could you determine that someone was making an unfair price? Someone selling orange juice for the standard "orange juice price" decides he wants to add a few secret ingredients. He gets creative and tosses in some almond powder, crushed ice, and cream powder and makes an Orange Julius. Now everyone just loves these things. He charges twice the cost of a normal boring glass of juice, - even though it took very little extra effort to make- it just tastes so much better. Unless you have a regulation in place, you will have no legal precedence upon which to shut him down. If people are BUYING his drink AND they are loving his drink, you cannot just arbitrarily come along and penalize him or take away his profits "just because". That isn't justice, Nema!!! And if his all his money is turned over to the World Bank and his salary is drawn soely from them, then he will NEVER innovate nor will he put 'extra' items in his food since it COST HIM MORE to make it.

Regulations will be required.

And a lot of them.

Shop or restaurant managers will be paid by the government, so there is no point in them overpricing customers

you really get into trouble here. As I posted above, it costs a lot of money to buy berries and whipped cream for your customers. Unless this shop manager gets paid more, he will never ever ever have an incentive to artistically prepare or make pancakes with berry toppings, whipped cream, or pure maple syrup. EVER!! All you will ever see is the same old bland crap.

You cannot get around it Nema. In your world, there will never be blueberry pancakes with whipped cream or pure maple syrup. Only a bunch of sloppy slabs of flourly like things barely edible for human consumption. If you think such a thing as blueberry pancakes with whipped cream and pure maple syrup would exist in a restaraunt, I want you to explain it to me. Start with the entrepeneur who builds the restaraunt. Tell me what motive he would have to do it, what incentives he has, how it is controlled, and what regulations he would have to follow. ITs time for you to start being practical. Ive heard enough of your ideals. Life isnt lived as an ideal. Life is day to day practicality.

[Anathema]

Life isnt lived as an ideal. Life is day to day practicality.

Todays reality is that there are billions of people who can't afford your Orange Julius, or even food and medicine. Is that better?

[emprworm]

Oh i guess we just make them illegal earthnuker. Everyone gets a standard protein-vitamin based health bar and water. They get cubic quarters 10m x 10m x 3m and government issue clothes. Then eveyrone smile! Cuz we are SOOO happy!! yay!! :D :D :D

HMMM! That protein-vitamin health bar is SOOOO GOOD! I could eat these every day for the next 40 years! O WAIT! I WILL BE!!

COOL

[Anathema]

Oh boy ::)

You know what, you go drink your Orange Julius. When you drink your precious luxury beverage, just sit back comfortably and don't think about all the people who starve yet who haven't done anything to deserve such a fate.

[emprworm]

yea, i am thinking about them as I type on my 2gz computer in an entertainment forum on the luxury internet. I encourage you to do the same.

[Anathema]

Setting things straight, I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy luxury. But you critisised Nemas government because you wouldn't be able to drink your Orange Julius, and that his model was too idealistic.

In current society there is not enought effort put in ensuring proper healthcare or food supply for people in third world country, let alone serving them fancy drinks. Nemas government tries to do something about that, but yours wouldn't.

[nemafakei]

Read what I have said about shopkeepers again, please!

Profits? He will have no profits from selling expensive Orange Julii over Orange juice; it is in his interests not to overprice the orange julii. Remember, he is paid by the government to sell the juice; customers do not pay him, but the government when they buy things from him. (I implied this, but should have explicitly said it: ) The cost of manufacture should generally be reflected in th price.

"nor will he put 'extra' items in his food since it COST HIM MORE to make it"

Nope. If he makes it, the oranges will be supplied to him, as will his extras, when he requests them, assuming there is a demand (He can, of course, try out some extras, to see if people like them to prove that there is demand, and use that as a basis to request his extras.)

"Regulations will be required.

And a lot of them"

There will be general guidelines, and councils will decide whether they have been infringed or not, if someone is prosecuted for failing to comply.

But nowhere near the extent of detail of your "CHAPTER 12,449: PANCAKES"

[emprworm]

in my government some people will be in misery. In nema's nearly everyone will be

[emprworm]

Nema, I asked you to explain to me very practically the entire process from entrepeneur to blueberry pancakes with whipped cream and pure maple syrup. I will await for you to do this. Until now, eveyrthing from you has been ideal this, general that, speculation this, theory that. its time we simulate an actual persons life in your system. Tell me how blueberry pancakes with whipped cream and pure maple syrup would exist in your world. Or would such a simple- and I emphasize simple- taste treat never even exist? Or would all pancakes just be the same ole bland fried dough patties.

Take me on the entire process, include motivating factors, pay, incentive and government regulations that would limit and/or guide what he is doing. especially tell me WHY he would even want to do it to begin with and what would drive him to make better pancakes than everyone else, and why he would incur the extra expenses (such as whipped cream is extremely perishable- if he doesn't use it quickly, he must throw it away costing him money. Berries cost more money. Pure maple syrup is so much more limited than mass produced artifical syrup since pure maple syrup is made more slowly and has purity standards and made of natural resources that are limited).

How does he aquire his supplies? What regulations would grant those supplies? Would his requested berries be denied or approved and why? - would there not be regulations governing the approval/rejection of extra "indulgence" ingredients such as regulation 13,344,221.6B? Since pancakes do not NEED whipped cream or berries, these types of extravagance would cost more to the chef AND society.

[nemafakei]

In mine, those who work hard will be better off than those who do not, GLOBALLY. In capitalism, total misery *might be* no less, but even so, misery is disproportionale to work and benefit to society.

"Start with the entrepeneur who builds the restaraunt."

He is a builder who has an idea that a resaurant just here would be rather nice. Having suggested this to other builders, perhaps some town planners, and confirmed that there would be demand for it (and sufficient supply of work, resources, etc), a council would take a short time to approve his idea. He, along with the architect, electrician, etc. register that this is the project they are doing for the next month or two (or the month after, or during a certain week therein), and they commence.

Staff will be sought, and found, as the building work is done. They start work on menus to start with (they are paid initially to do this)... they see what can be sought in this area, and find that Asparagus must be imported from afar, so it's either going to be expensive or off the menu, and since no-one likes asparagus, it's not sold. Meanwhile, cream can easily be got hold of, and the chef can make Cr