[WIP] Heighliner Tileset

[Cm_blast]

8 hours ago, Fey said:

Wow, that's really interesting. I'm definitely going to use that going forward... or backwards, even. When I go back and adjust the OG smugglers campaign, S06V1 needs more attacks at midfield and less attacks on the player's base.

Ordos Saboteur don't work too well if you do this; maybe something similar happens with the St.Fremen, so be carefull with that. The Ordos may keep spawning saboteurs but don't use them, or they may join as part as a "defensive" unit wandering around.

8 hours ago, Fey said:

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're asking. The brown wall was in previous versions of the tileset, but it's only available on Base Platform. Otherwise, the blue / green wall can be placed on black or white platform. Could you rephrase the question?

Let's see if I can explain better

On that image I don't know exactly how big-smalls are the individual tile, so I cannot see clearly what each tile contain individually.
What I mean, your original tile (only 1 tile) it's my red rectangle: A tile that contain half green columns and half floor.
Or if that tile it's my yellow (on the second image); A tile that contain half green columns, half floor and the "brown wall" to the left, suppose to block the path.

I only refer to that single tile, forget the rest; if the "brown-wall" part to the very left it's part of the green-colum tile or it's just a part of a different tile.

If at this point I didn't explain what I mean then tell me where it is the very last version of the tileset and I will try to search it on the whole tileset.

[Fey]

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Ordos Saboteur don't work too well if you do this; maybe something similar happens with the St.Fremen, so be carefull with that. The Ordos may keep spawning saboteurs but don't use them, or they may join as part as a "defensive" unit wandering around.

Ah, okay, that's good to know. At least it could work on the earlier maps.

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Let's see if I can explain better

On that image I don't know exactly how big-smalls are the individual tile, so I cannot see clearly what each tile contain individually.
What I mean, your original tile (only 1 tile) it's my red rectangle: A tile that contain half green columns and half floor.
Or if that tile it's my yellow (on the second image); A tile that contain half green columns, half floor and the "brown wall" to the left, suppose to block the path.

I only refer to that single tile, forget the rest; if the "brown-wall" part to the very left it's part of the green-colum tile or it's just a part of a different tile.

If at this point I didn't explain what I mean then tell me where it is the very last version of the tileset and I will try to search it on the whole tileset.

Oh, I think I get it!

That's part of a different tile entirely. I did that to hide the border between Base Platform and other sorts of platform, like, gold tiles don't have borders so they need other platform types' borders pushed up against them, but I guess that also works to make the platform wall look more impassable.

I could add spike tiles with borders so they can be placed right up against the platform wall tile. I guess I could also add gold tiles with borders, but crates would have to be placed on the inner tiles. It would, like base platform borders, serve additionally to hide the gold platform craters which sometimes overlap with other tiles. This could be chalked up to debris getting knocked around and stuff like that, but still. It was more important for the Base Platform. Would certainly fill in those void tiles in the set...

[Cm_blast]

On 1/18/2019 at 8:15 PM, Fey said:

That's part of a different tile entirely. I did that to hide the border between Base Platform and other sorts of platform, like, gold tiles don't have borders so they need other platform types' borders pushed up against them, but I guess that also works to make the platform wall look more impassable.

I could add spike tiles with borders so they can be placed right up against the platform wall tile. I guess I could also add gold tiles with borders, but crates would have to be placed on the inner tiles. It would, like base platform borders, serve additionally to hide the gold platform craters which sometimes overlap with other tiles. This could be chalked up to debris getting knocked around and stuff like that, but still. It was more important for the Base Platform. Would certainly fill in those void tiles in the set...

So, if I am not mistaken things; this is your grid, more or less:
https://prnt.sc/m92isi

Did you try to place the borders together with the columns instead? Dunno if that will mess with another graphics, but for example, look at this.

https://prnt.sc/m92iuw
The black part is suppose to be normal floor, like the other tiles the vehicles are in; the borders here are tied with the colums so the top-left corner (the one that have a line of blue and half part of a column pointing to up) it's blocked either way (either you use borders on the floor or you set another type of floor without the border. Also the missile tanks and the rest of the vehicles graphic won't step up on those borders.

Or maybe something in between, like half the border being part of the floor and the other part being on the column tile, but maybe this will refrain too much and then you are forced to do 2 tiles together without any freedom.

Keep in mind that I have no idea what it is better, visually or tecnically; I am not saying this as a "you should do it this way" but as a "did you ever through of this?" Also maybe at this point you have all the tiles on your tileset covered and this require a few new tiles from other situations with no borders or this will simply mess you overall visual graphics. so don't ever take this as an advice.

For Fey 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Cm_blast

[Fey]

3 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

So, if I am not mistaken things; this is your grid, more or less:
https://prnt.sc/m92isi

Did you try to place the borders together with the columns instead? Dunno if that will mess with another graphics, but for example, look at this.

https://prnt.sc/m92iuw
The black part is suppose to be normal floor, like the other tiles the vehicles are in; the borders here are tied with the colums so the top-left corner (the one that have a line of blue and half part of a column pointing to up) it's blocked either way (either you use borders on the floor or you set another type of floor without the border. Also the missile tanks and the rest of the vehicles graphic won't step up on those borders.

Or maybe something in between, like half the border being part of the floor and the other part being on the column tile, but maybe this will refrain too much and then you are forced to do 2 tiles together without any freedom.

Keep in mind that I have no idea what it is better, visually or tecnically; I am not saying this as a "you should do it this way" but as a "did you ever through of this?" Also maybe at this point you have all the tiles on your tileset covered and this require a few new tiles from other situations with no bothers or something, so don't ever take this as an advice.

Ohh, now I see!

Okay, so the way the tiles work, having the special parameters pushed up against the edge allows for maximum flexibility. Because the border wall tiles end at the top, you can put any sort of platform atop them and they'll look fine, like how I have blue walls with Base Platform above in one area and brown wall with a Supply Depot, Launch Pad, and otherwise white platform atop, and Base Platform below. Like, on the right side of this screenshot:
https://prnt.sc/m7ssk1

There are a LOT of wall tiles because even though the top is against the edge of the tile, which allows any sort of platform to be placed atop it, the bottom falls upon any sort of color of tile, and you need a different tile for every single possible combination. The border is also up against the tile edge, allowing for formations like the left side of that screenshot, where the black, white, and Base platforms all have borders up against the Supply Depot. There are also those blue-green walls on the black platform in the middle of the screenshot, but they're not arranged with platform atop, just impassable terrain. They're also fairly small, so they create obstacles but it's easy to path around them.

I guess gold platform borders could actually be useful for bordering Mass Deposits. Remember, you can't place crates beside an MD pad, otherwise the Harvesters will always go on the MD pad instead of harvesting the crates. So, those tiles could use something other than crates to decorate them anyway. Again in that one screenshot, you can see there are borders all around the Mass Deposit except on the side of the gold platform. That would be the perfect place for border tiles.

Anyway, so I can't do something in-between like this:

Quote

Or maybe something in between, like half the border being part of the floor and the other part being on the column tile, but maybe this will refrain too much and then you are forced to do 2 tiles together without any freedom.

For reasons you said. It would be limiting, it would force those two tiles together without freedom, and there's simply not enough space in the tileset for one set of platform walls without borders and one set of platform walls with borders. The platform base underneath the wall though, that can have borders, there's enough room for all of those and they can be pushed up to the side of the platform wall. I'll add more tiles with spikes and borders so we can maintain that better visual indicator of those walls being impassable.

So, there's a technical analysis on the tileset structure. Hopefully by allowing so many different combinations, we can make maps that are both aesthetically different and visually appealing. The two, technicality and visuals, are deeply intertwined.

The next update should allow for more options in infantry-only gaps in platform walls and more detailing around Supply Depots. I think I'll do the borders for gold platform like I did with Base Platform because, like Base Platform, you can sink craters into it, so it must have some sort of unique properties. Then, perhaps, the tileset will be done. I'm sure some folks are waiting for the final release so they don't have to deal with any updates while mapping with this, right?

I mean, updating it isn't hard, there are specific tiles that are left blank on purpose so I can fit more stuff into it. Updating won't change the finalized tiles already placed, it'll simply fill in the blanks I left there for the purpose of updating. It's safe to start mapping, but still. Gotta finalize it.

[Fey]

New (difficult) test map is up. @Cm_blast The latest version of the tileset is included in the zip and some more changes we've been discussing have been implemented. Here are the bullet points:
 - Black platform wall now has red pillars.
 - White platform wall now has blue pillars.
 - Fixed graphical errors with certain 'void' tiles.
 - One new, unique infantry-only debris tile was added for Base Platform.
 - Smuggler-colored Mass Deposit had to be removed.
 - Supply Depots now have platform border tiles.
 - New infantry-only tiles were added with platform borders.
 - Fixed an error where a certain impassable tile would read "Mass" when moused over.

The purpose of this test map is to demonstrate how the tileset handles a sense of scale. This map is the maximum size - 128x128 - and is dense with Supply Depots, Mass Deposits, and incidental units. Despite the amount of stuff on the map, it shouldn't feel crowded. It should feel like the player is fighting within a vast installation, where all these towering buildings and tons of tanks are tiny by comparison. Unit pathing should be better than previous test maps, and the map being very non-linear should help achieve that sense of scale.

This map is also about map control. The player will begin with plenty of map control, but the enemy will quickly take it without player interference! Move out from your base, explore for reinforcements from Freighters, defend focal points with friendly turrets, make use of LRA platforms, claim more resources, attack, and defeat the enemy. Good luck.

Note: For those who wish to avoid spoilers, this map is based on SBON3, which plays much differently since the objectives are much different and since the player starts in a different location. It was also balanced without my gameplay mod in effect, making it purely a test map for this tileset.

Details below:

Spoiler

Full map image: https://i.imgur.com/zvg7k6j.jpg
Tactical map image: https://i.imgur.com/YjrX0Wi.jpg

Green = Armor reinforcements.
Yellow = LRA reinforcements.
Blue = Guild fortifications.
Pink = Enemy bases.

You begin in the middle of the map with the goals of defending the Atreides HTF there and destroying all enemy forces. Simple objectives, but this map is anything but.

Gather your forces, get a Refinery set up immediately, and don't forget to micro that Harvester on the Mass Deposit pad. Then, have a look around the map before things get hectic. There are several friendly bases that will hold the enemy at bay for some time. Some of them have Refineries, some have idle factories, but most importantly, they all have Gun Turrets. The more of those you keep intact, the easier it'll be to gain your own ground against the enemy.

To help you gain ground, keep on the lookout for parked Freighters. Each one you discover will provide you with two new tanks. You'll also receive six Atreides vehicles after you build a Starport.

You can't defend every location at once, so I recommend you pick a direction you want to go in and set up fortifications on your rear. The enemy will blow through the Guild fortifications behind you and meet resistance at your base while you focus on and expand in the other direction. No matter what, you'll probably need to split your attention between several areas of this map at once, but it can help to make good use of artillery, especially on the LRA platforms! Like so:
https://prnt.sc/mbkcmh

This formation can't hold out against a massive attack, but that one Deviator will pick at tanks on the bridge that can't retaliate because the Gun Turret is defending the LRA platform. Any enemy infantry attempting to attack from the other direction will have to face down a Siege Tank - a losing battle almost every time. A few Combat Tanks or extra Gun Turrets supporting this position, and you'll find it's very effective at holding its own while you do something else.

While that's going on, make sure you set up a second position at your desired location. If the enemy sweeps all the Guild fortifications clean, they'll have free reign to push into your base from every angle, and that would make it very difficult to progress! You may want to capture the Guild Heavy Factory since it'll let you build Sonic Tanks, but you may wish to go straight for one of the Guild Refineries instead. Even if you don't build new structures at the new front, support the local defenses with Combat Tanks and LRA, like so:
https://prnt.sc/mblzka

This will contain one enemy base. As long as you hold your ground in the right places, you should find it's fairly simple to push into and destroy the enemy base you target. However, beware of attempts by enemy forces to flank you! Once every structure in an enemy base is destroyed, the base opposite that one will send its available units all at once. These desperate attacks will be devastating if you aren't prepared.

Penetrating the enemy bases' defenses is made easier if you flank the enemy as much as possible and mass your units where they won't be funneled over a bridge. The two bases with Heavy Factories on the right side of the map each have open areas where you can mass tanks, and nearby Freighters where you can salvage additional armor. The left side of the map has only Light Factories, and they have only one Refinery each, but their defenses are concentrated and you will need to go head-to-head with enemy forces over a bridge. And, the left side bases will be the greatest threat to the Atreides HTF. You can't go wrong with either direction - one base down is one base off your back. Literally, when you turn your attention to the other bases.

The Ordos will prefer Light Infantry, Raiders, and Combat Tanks. Harkonnen forces will deploy many Devastators, Troopers, and Quads. If you're tackling the Ordos first, bring extra Siege Tanks and position Troopers on any infantry-only platform you can find. They'll bust those CTs with proper cover. If you're taking on the Harkonnen first, make sure you have enough Light Infantry and Raiders for their Troopers and Missile Tanks, and make sure you bring some Deviators to counter the Devastators.

Finally, you can make use of the Atreides HTF's Ornithopters. The only anti-air the enemy will have will be Missile Tanks, and only the Harkonnen will use those, so sortie the Ornithopters against massed enemy units to severely weaken their defenders before you try to push into a base. Be quick; wait too long, and the enemy will repair all of their damaged vehicles.

Once all enemy structures are destroyed, the mission is accomplished. Good luck.

Technical analysis:
I feel this map is an achievement in non-linearity. Although SBON3 had a structure I was proud of, it still restricted the player in certain respects. This map is completely non-linear. Any direction is justifiable, the map supports aggressive, defensive, and hybrid styles of gameplay, any of the four enemy bases could be argued best taken out first, the enemy attacks from any conceivable angle, but the player is given plenty of opportunity to hold them off at any of the six accessible locations the Guild has fortifications set up, though not all. It's an intense map, but I believe it strikes a balance that makes it fair.

This map is an excellent demonstration of how this tileset is naturally inclined to encourage vying for greater map control. The Supply Depot in the player's starting base is great income, but it lasts only for 10k credits. The player will need at least two Mass Deposits to have a steady and reliable income, but that involves dealing with enemy attacks from new angles. Capturing the Base Platform occupied by the enemy is additionally crucial for the sake of making use of the local Mass Deposit.

Given how this test played out quite satisfactorily for me, I'm excited to explore the potential for multi-player maps with this tileset. Theoretically, it could produce some fun, fast-paced results similar enough to the original game, but differing primarily in resource gathering and how that affects strategy. The multiplayer folks love to spam Refineries and build non-stop in the current meta, but this sort of system would demand more out of unit micro than base macro, in theory. What do you guys think?

With regard to the AI on this map, it's very standard optimization. Repairs begin ASAP for units and structures, each AI has its defensive units in the other AI's base so that when one base is destroyed, the other's defenders go berserk. Damaged defenders can be flown across the map for repairs, provided the player hasn't set up Rocket Turrets in the center, and each AI has its own strengths and weaknesses in terms of unit composition. AIs are set to rebuild their buildings faster and in a better order than the default, their economies are quite stable, and the Harkonnen and Ordos AIs will alternate attacks against the player. One attacks while the other builds up more.

Most notable is the difference in factories, where the left side of the map has Light Factories only and the right side of the map has Heavy Factories only. The structure of the map makes it about as difficult to defeat either sort of base. More importantly, this limits the amount of units the enemy is sending at the player and presents the player with certain specific threats depending on which direction he chooses to go, limiting unit variety and making the map more fair.

The map's structure is also conducive to the AI's units' movement. The map is very accessible and open all-around and is unlikely to cause pathing-related crashes.

Download link:
Heighliner Scale Test.zip

Good luck and have fun. Remember, if you're having trouble, there's a "strategy" section under the spoiler. This is a difficult map.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Fey
Added a technical analysis under the spoiler.

[Cm_blast]

Alright; I played the map.

Visually speaking it's gorgeus. I never expected that would be possible to create a tileset with tons of new stuff while still adjusting to the limits of the original game and still looking good.

It's really a very good tileset.

Tecnically speaking it's also a well design map: double corridors, one designed to the infantry and the other to vehicles give the player (and mostly the AI) to be able to move around the map with no much trouble. In fact, vanilla maps are much more cramped that this one.

you did a really good job.

In game speaking: Indeed, a very hard map. I won because I was lucky, I think. At some point I feel like I was done and was about to give up, but I decided to do an all-in on the base I was trying to get in the first place (but couldn't finish due the insane amount of infantry/troopers coming at me); Good thing I could destroy (or at least negate) one of the enemy bases, giving me access to the right area to be able to increase my income while stopping enemies from only 1 side.

I got lucky on that all-in that I manage to strike strong enough to negate the enemy base, and I could do that just because I used the airstrike against the Heavy Factory but the AI took ages to rebuild it; in fact, by the time the fact was builded, my aristrike was only 20 seconds left to be ready and destroy it again.

Also, was a relief seeing the enemy having trouble too with the income. Not sure which enemies are using "unlimited" money on your map, but at least the Ai's have the silos empty for the most part. I used the airstrike often to decimated groups of 20-30 infantry 1 one single move and that give me a bit of relax to do other parts.

I am going to show a couple of images here:
This is normal?
https://prnt.sc/mchxap

I was scared that, at any moment, the AI decided to send all of that against me. He send attacks from time to time, but always a good amoung of units were behind. The other 2 bases (I didn't have vision on the 4º) didn't have as many units waiting to be used.

By the way; this map it's suppose to use your modified bin or just original rules? I doub I could be this lucky with your modified stuff at all; I mention this because the briefing said about the deviator but besides a couple of initial deviators you won't see more; I think (I encounter 5 or 6 vehicles on the frigates, dunno if I found all of them).

Anyway; I am going to show him the screen result:
https://prnt.sc/mchytg

Don't look at the timer but the ticks instead at the end to know the current in game time; I stopped to eat so the "real time" it's inflated. 136.000 ticks it's 1 hour and half. At least here you can see how bad I did at the other numbers.

Ps: when the tileset it's completely 100% done (if it isn't yet); I could suggest to group your multiple test maps and, since all are using the same faction and all, maybe you can reconvert them into a mini-campaign of three/four maps.

You can make a first map showing part of your tileset and the mass deposit, then a second map which combine both elements and showing ever more different/combined tiles, and then this map as the big-scale war that show off every combination possible.

A first map with only collectable boses could be present, just to really show the difference between using only mass deposit and only those boxes (showing a big group of transitable boxes and telling in the briefing that those worth money will be enough); and for the second map a mass deposit + 1 refinery already there so the player can see it clearly how the mass thing works.

low or very low tech for the first map, so people can do lots of mistake and waste money for no reason but still having more than enough, increasing later so 1 single mass deposit it's not enough to keep building, and this final map as part of the final map, not just to showcase the full pontential of the tileset, but also players by that point should be aware about how the boxes are limited, how less worthy a full harvester it's, etc...

[Fey]

Hey Cm! Thanks VERY much for finishing the latest test map. As always, your feedback is GREATLY appreciated!

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

Alright; I played the map.

Visually speaking it's gorgeus. I never expected that would be possible to create a tileset with tons of new stuff while still adjusting to the limits of the original game and still looking good.

It's really a very good tileset.

I sincerely appreciate that compliment. It makes me very happy to have produced something so desirable. Thank you! And I hope it goes to great use going forward.

On a related note, I was thinking of redesigning S06V2 for the final version of the OG smugglers campaign. Originally, I wanted it to be on a Heighliner, but this was incomprehensible to me at the time. Now, the player doesn't need to stop Ornithopters sortied from the ground from blockading the CHOAM Freighters - he can go right up to the Heighliner and liberate them! Huzzah!

It would also be a fantastic opportunity to introduce some Guild tech and foreshadow the Storm Lasher. I don't even need to have an active Storm Lasher there; all I need to do is throw in an inactive one and have the player look at it like "wtf is this lol?" Then S15 comes around and they're like "OH FUCK, THAT'S WHAT THAT WAS!"

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

Tecnically speaking it's also a well design map: double corridors, one designed to the infantry and the other to vehicles give the player (and mostly the AI) to be able to move around the map with no much trouble. In fact, vanilla maps are much more cramped that this one.

you did a really good job.

Thank you again. I'm really proud of the map itself too. I feel very confident working with this tileset now.

I think it might've been best to make those occasional 4-tile bridges 5 tiles, 4 seems a little bit too cramped, given the scale of the battle, but I can fix that up for the release thread.

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

In game speaking: Indeed, a very hard map. I won because I was lucky, I think. At some point I feel like I was done and was about to give up, but I decided to do an all-in on the base I was trying to get in the first place (but couldn't finish due the insane amount of infantry/troopers coming at me); Good thing I could destroy (or at least negate) one of the enemy bases, giving me access to the right area to be able to increase my income while stopping enemies from only 1 side.

I got lucky on that all-in that I manage to strike strong enough to negate the enemy base, and I could do that just because I used the airstrike against the Heavy Factory but the AI took ages to rebuild it; in fact, by the time the fact was builded, my aristrike was only 20 seconds left to be ready and destroy it again.

Also, was a relief seeing the enemy having trouble too with the income. Not sure which enemies are using "unlimited" money on your map, but at least the Ai's have the silos empty for the most part. I used the airstrike often to decimated groups of 20-30 infantry 1 one single move and that give me a bit of relax to do other parts.

Actually, all four of the AIs have a grand total of 10k credits to start. The Light Factory AIs begin with 2k credits each and the Heavy Factory AIs begin with 3k credits each. They also use only two Harvesters each, and of course that's not counting the fact that they only have two sorts of factories each. A Barracks and either a Light Factory and Heavy Factory.

...Apparently Mass Deposits are overpowered. The AIs with infinite cash are sides 4 and 5, and that's only so they can infinitely repair their structures and either hold out longer against the Harkonnen and Ordos or maintain themselves against any collateral damage they might suffer. The Harkonnen and Ordos are hostile to side 4, which contains all the Guild Gun Turrets and militia. Side 5 contains the Guild Wind Traps, Outposts, Repair Pad, Refineries, Silos... all the stuff the player will either capture or ride past. They're basically destructible objects on the map that don't affect the game in any significant way.

Aye, sending the Ornithopters out on their infantry or factory before attacking is definitely the ideal time and place. Hopefully the map reveal triggers helped with that a bit. If your attempt went anything like mine, the map went much faster after you managed to take out one of the bases, right? But that first one was tough.

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

I am going to show a couple of images here:

This is normal?
https://prnt.sc/mchxap

I was scared that, at any moment, the AI decided to send all of that against me. He send attacks from time to time, but always a good amoung of units were behind. The other 2 bases (I didn't have vision on the 4º) didn't have as many units waiting to be used.

lol yeah that's normal XD I slipped my own screenshot of the same area under the strategy section of the spoiler in my last post:
https://prnt.sc/mblzka

However, that was at the start of the game. The Harkonnen and Ordos are optimized and have alternating attacks. The Ordos attack first at 5 minutes in, then the Harkonnen attack at 8 minutes in. They'll alternate every three minutes. Ordos, Harkonnen, Ordos, Harkonnen... I think when I do the mini-campaign version for the release thread, I'll turn down their build rate. That should help.

I also see from that screenshot you linked that you went to the right first and de-toothed the Harkonnen base in the bottom right. Right? That was actually what I did on my first test run, except I went down first and attacked that Harkonnen base from the left side. Either way works, as you can see! And with that base down, you're rid of the worst one first, the one pumping out Devastators. Apologies if Deviators can't actually be built by the mercs; it was intended that the player should use more Deviators against the Harkonnen and other units against the Ordos. I made do with the first two just hitting and running on their Devastators and detonating them in the middle of all their units, and capturing the Guild Refinery in the bottom center got my initial production up pretty nicely. The position you went to first is much more defensible, I think, but it doesn't offer much more in the way of resources. I hit the Ordos bases next starting with the one on the other side of my first expansion and the final Harkonnen base I brute-forced.

I'm still having trouble with my economy on these maps too. XD On one of my attempts I had like 20k funds for some reason and on another I somehow ran out halfway into the game. Fuck if I know how that happened lol

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way; this map it's suppose to use your modified bin or just original rules? I doub I could be this lucky with your modified stuff at all; I mention this because the briefing said about the deviator but besides a couple of initial deviators you won't see more; I think (I encounter 5 or 6 vehicles on the frigates, dunno if I found all of them).

This map was balanced around the original game. In fact, loading it up with the latest version of my mod instantly ends the map in failure because that Atreides HTF you need to defend is turned into a Storm Lasher. My mod might have been helpful on this map since LRA tend to have better range and Grenadiers could be deployed en masse to support them. Anyway, uhh... can't the mercs build Deviators in the original game? There are no reinforcement Deviators from Ordos Freighters. I thought the mercs were able to build them like the smugglers and Ordos are.

For the record, there are 20 reinforcement tanks the player can find in total, all Harkonnen and Ordos units, and you can get 6 more Atreides tanks from building a Starport. 16 Combat Tanks (4 Atr, 6 Ord, 6 Hark), 4 Siege Tanks, 4 Missile Tanks, and 2 Sonic Tanks. Most of them are accessible from the start of the map.  The only ones the player can't hit right away are the one in the very top left corner and the two beside the other Harkonnen base in the bottom right. All of those Freighters contain Harkonnen Combat Tanks. And, even then, the two in the bottom right are very lightly defended by whatever Harkonnen forces protect the bridge between the bottom right base and the bottom center Supply Depot. All of the Freighter locations are circled in either green or yellow on the TacMap, except for one in the bottom right which should have been green:
https://i.imgur.com/YjrX0Wi.jpg

Green has armor, yellow has LRA. Pink circles are around enemy bases and the blue circles are around accessible and defensible Guild positions. There are six accessible locations from the very start of the game, allowing for lots of potential avenues for first attack.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Anyway; I am going to show him the screen result:

https://prnt.sc/mchytg

Don't look at the timer but the ticks instead at the end to know the current in game time; I stopped to eat so the "real time" it's inflated. 136.000 ticks it's 1 hour and half. At least here you can see how bad I did at the other numbers.

1809 units killed? Holy shit XD I hope the game didn't drag, but with numbers like that, I suppose you had lots to do at any given time.

Aye, I cleared the map in about... 40 minutes? IIRC? So that's about the same time in in-game time. You had a really good KDR, although I suppose you could've benefited from some more infantry. I like to scatter Troopers around on any infantry-only terrain, and then if any enemy vehicles come by, I've got a Combat Tank or two nearby to soak fire for them. The infantry are especially helpful against those light vehicles on the left side of the map, I think, since they don't have the range or firepower of heavy vehicles.

That's one of those things I wanted to sort in my mod, too. Like, light vehicles and Troopers have identical range so Troopers are quite effective at zoning off those fast buggers. Not to mention the self-healing, so as long as you cover them a bit, they'll continue to act like mobile turrets. Quads hit harder than Combat Tanks, too, but they're waaay more fragile. I remember hating Quads on this map, like I send them in to hit something behind enemy defenses and they take foreeever to deal their damage, but they get popped easily. And that's neglecting the fact that structure armor varies in the original game too! Ugh. At least the Light Factory upgrade is only like 400 credits. lol

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Ps: when the tileset it's completely 100% done (if it isn't yet); I could suggest to group your multiple test maps and, since all are using the same faction and all, maybe you can reconvert them into a mini-campaign of three/four maps.

You can make a first map showing part of your tileset and the mass deposit, then a second map which combine both elements and showing ever more different/combined tiles, and then this map as the big-scale war that show off every combination possible.

A first map with only collectable boses could be present, just to really show the difference between using only mass deposit and only those boxes (showing a big group of transitable boxes and telling in the briefing that those worth money will be enough); and for the second map a mass deposit + 1 refinery already there so the player can see it clearly how the mass thing works.

low or very low tech for the first map, so people can do lots of mistake and waste money for no reason but still having more than enough, increasing later so 1 single mass deposit it's not enough to keep building, and this final map as part of the final map, not just to showcase the full pontential of the tileset, but also players by that point should be aware about how the boxes are limited, how less worthy a full harvester it's, etc...

Aye. I was thinking of fixing up the three maps we've got - you know, polishing them up with the ideas implemented in the final map, now that we know how to actually map with this tileset - and maybe designing a fourth one just to wrap things up with the Atreides. Nothing big, just, "Hey, the Atreides aren't going to pay us. Take a small group of units and capture the armor in their Freighters so we can hold their units as ransom." And that'll be the campaign. Probably don't even need a base on that map. Or I could do the opposite, put a tech 1 map at the beginning to introduce the resource gathering system and have some enemy reinforcements show up, just some Light Infantry or Trikes. Or unit spawns, attacking from other parts of the Heighliner and spawning at the ends of bridges! That'd be really easy.

Given the results of this latest test, I'm gonna say I think it's done. As long as the new infantry-only terrain (including the debris) and the platform colors look alright. I'll post a release thread with the tileset and mini-campaign, re-tune the mini-campaign to be easier probably, uhh... and that'll be that for this thing.

[Cm_blast]

3 hours ago, Fey said:

I also see from that screenshot you linked that you went to the right first and de-toothed the Harkonnen base in the bottom right. Right?

Yes; I started sending a few infantry at top and bottom to check if there was a direct passage after those refineries, so I could send engineers and capture them; once the infantries reach the destiny I send them at random positions. I found 3 of 4 enemy bases; I didn't bother to explore the remaining one because the map it's like a mirror, and I saw already Harkonnen coming that way, so by the time the airstrike was ready my first try was to take out the stronger heavy factory (since fortunately they don't make use of rocket turrets).

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Either way works, as you can see! And with that base down, you're rid of the worst one first, the one pumping out Devastators. Apologies if Deviators can't actually be built by the mercs; it was intended that the player should use more Deviators against the Harkonnen and other units against the Ordos. I made do with the first two just hitting and running on their Devastators and detonating them in the middle of all their units, and capturing the Guild Refinery in the bottom center got my initial production up pretty nicely. The position you went to first is much more defensible, I think, but it doesn't offer much more in the way of resources. I hit the Ordos bases next starting with the one on the other side of my first expansion and the final Harkonnen base I brute-forced.

I was trying to group a small force at the right position. I manage to capture a windtrap so I could place a couple or refs there; but when I was moving slowly my siege tanks to take out the 20-30 infantry at the barracks (since the heavy factory was gone), the Ordos attack with multiple tanks and took me most of my units, my refineries and everything.

I have 4 turrets in the 4 directions at the main base, but even that wasn't enough to stop the Ordos. 2 siege tanks couldn't stop the insane amount of infantry/troopers send by the enemy, so the turrets were doing the job right without me needing attention, but the infantry wave sooner or later the turrets fall down. Here it's when I went all in, take out the Hark factories + CY and left the area;

Capturing the full silos from the Harkonnen and later their refinery (harv included) give the boost to be able to survive for the rest of the game.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

I'm still having trouble with my economy on these maps too. XD On one of my attempts I had like 20k funds for some reason and on another I somehow ran out halfway into the game. Fuck if I know how that happened lol

Harvester and carryalls happen.

If you have 4 refineries with 10 harvesters and they are close at the point when they should, your income increase a lots. If you have the same amount but they insist on going at opposite ways; a harvester waiting to pick up on both the refinery AND the mass deposit will slow down everybody.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

can't the mercs build Deviators in the original game?

Nope man, that's 1 reason westwood give them a different heavy factory, just like the Imperial Factory, so they don't share that specific special unit. The smuggler still can use it because they reuse the Ordos one.

Saying that; maybe you want to give some kind of exchange for building IX. don't give anything new unless you capture another heavy factory.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

All of the Freighter locations are circled in either green or yellow on the TacMap, except for one in the bottom right which should have been green:

The two at the bottom I mised; there were a few units around there and I prefer to focus my units and figths on destroting the Ordos instead trying to kill a few hark doing nothing.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

1809 units killed? Holy shit XD I hope the game didn't drag, but with numbers like that, I suppose you had lots to do at any given time.

With waves being always 20-30 infantry and troopers, the body count increases a lot easily; and like I said early, there was a moment I trhough I was lost; my account was at 0, so after I could gain a decent amount of units to control the right area I spend some minutes killing plenty of waves coming from the left and top side.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Aye, I cleared the map in about... 40 minutes? IIRC? So that's about the same time in in-game time. You had a really good KDR, although I suppose you could've benefited from some more infantry. I like to scatter Troopers around on any infantry-only terrain, and then if any enemy vehicles come by, I've got a Combat Tank or two nearby to soak fire for them. The infantry are especially helpful against those light vehicles on the left side of the map, I think, since they don't have the range or firepower of heavy vehicles.

With that low on my economy and 80% of the enemies being infantry waves; troopers were pointless. 3-4 rocket turrets and 3 siege tanks were enough; the turrets took out the light vehicles and ocasionall heavy vehicle and the siege tanks the rest.

So; I prefered to use my poor money on combat tanks, then a few siege tanks and only ocasional troopers to strike the enemy turrets; so I didn't need troopers that much, I use plenty of them on the early going, maybe 15 min or so.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Quads hit harder than Combat Tanks, too, but they're waaay more fragile. I remember hating Quads on this map, like I send them in to hit something behind enemy defenses and they take foreeever to deal their damage, but they get popped easily. And that's neglecting the fact that structure armor varies in the original game too! Ugh. At least the Light Factory upgrade is only like 400 credits. lol

Maybe Quads were made to chase harvesters (and you cannot chase them because only trikes/raider are faster than them) or maybe chasing sieges and misille tanks, both slower and more expensive.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Aye. I was thinking of fixing up the three maps we've got - you know, polishing them up with the ideas implemented in the final map, now that we know how to actually map with this tileset

Yes, a minicampaign or you even try a "training boot" with 2-3 missions showing the crates and/or the mass deposit and then this map as a stand alone map; it's big, long and hard enough to be considered 1 single map.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Given the results of this latest test, I'm gonna say I think it's done. As long as the new infantry-only terrain (including the debris) and the platform colors look alright. I'll post a release thread with the tileset and mini-campaign, re-tune the mini-campaign to be easier probably, uhh... and that'll be that for this thing.

All clear; I didn't saw nothing wrong during my game.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Cm_blast

[Fey]

Hey there, folks! The tileset has been considered done for a while now, but I'm making an official release thread for it so it's easier to check out and get started with. Here's the thread:
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27863-release-heighliner-tileset/

Further details there, but the three test maps and a new one have been refined and released as a mini-campaign. Here's the changelog for the old test maps found throughout this thread in their original forms, and a few details on the new map:

HTTMC01: Lift-Off! (new!)

Spoiler

 - This is a new map designed with a "superstructure interior" aesthetic.
 - The Commander must destroy a small Ordos base and secure a Launch Pad.
 - This simple map introduces the tileset with basic tech and mechanics.

HTTMC02: Boarding Action (test map 2)

Spoiler

 - Resources normalized and Supply Depots expanded.
 - LRA platform converted into an infantry-only path.
 - Infantry-only at the Harkonnen base is more visible.
 - An additional Freighter rewarding armor was added.
 - Mercenary reinforcements are slightly decreased.
 - The Harkonnen are signifcantly less aggressive.
 - The Harkonnen use some Combat Tanks.
 - The Harkonnen use less Devastators.
 - The Ordos have less Light Infantry.

HTTMC03: LAV Liquidation (test map 1)

Spoiler

 - The player's LZ is more open, but is smaller.
 - The mercenaries now use a tech level of four.
 - Resources normalized and Supply Depots added.
 - Pathways on the map are slightly more open.
 - The Ordos and Harkonnen use three AIs each.
 - Said AIs are not particularly aggressive.
 - Said AIs use mostly Light II tech.
 - Mercenary reinforcements added.
 - Freighter bonuses changed.

HTTMC04: Fight With Flight (test map 3)

Spoiler

 - The Ordos and Harkonnen are much less aggressive.
 - The Ordos and Harkonnen have more starting units.
 - Fixed an error causing the Ordos to repair late.
 - The mercenaries now begin with two Devastators.
 - One Harkonnen armor bonus rewards two more.
 - Ordos LRA bonuses are now Deviators.

That'll do it for this WIP thread. Enjoy the new tileset, y'all!

Edited February 26, 2019 by Fey