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[Release] Battle Royal single map - Dune 2000


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10 hours ago, Fey said:

I had tanks dropping by in, like, the first... five minutes? And just because I said it was a liiiiittle too hard doesn't mean I didn't beat it! Just that it felt like it overstayed its welcome you know? Would have liked to progress the map sooner. So... I dunno what happened but maybe you screwed up the AI somehow and caused it to build pretty much nothing in the new version? :P

I literally changed alliance Ordos with the player that's it.

The enemy attacks first and intervals of 10.000 ticks, that's 3.3 minutes in max speed, but at the first minute he already beat 1 AI. Then at 2:10 minutes the first Fremen attack, at 3:20 some infantry too and at 5 minutes a couple of devastators. It's not a big early attack (never was the original map); only the smugglers have a bit more stronger attack (more early money + starport, if he buy units), but that AI was defeated at 1 min.

And then at 6 min or so you can see a few more attacks, not strong, but the Harkonnen are going against the Ordos and the mercs are nowhere near the player to go against him.

By the time the enemy start having more power, aarmaageedoon already have an insane army, so he instatly win.

10 hours ago, Runtowin said:

The AI almost never attack together, and often attack in small wave.

Since the attack timer act as random and the enemy it's playing "skirmish" the Ai it's not really anything near strong. The original map it's easy, just to messing around and etc.

aaaannnnd I can't beat myself the 1 vs 6 version map that Fey played, soooooo I am bad, that's why I am asking better players to test it.

10 hours ago, Fey said:

And just because I said it was a liiiiittle too hard doesn't mean I didn't beat it! Just that it felt like it overstayed its welcome you know?

Maybe I misunderstood.

I'll do the question better:
Did you enjoy the map to play it again in a future (or the other versions when I release them)? or you only played it because I told you so but you were that bored that are going to delete the file as soon as you finish it?

Because the point it's this: you (and players with some skill) are the ones that are going to play the 1 vs 6 version of the map, not me.

As a final Note: I'm asking Aarmaageedoon for advice to do another version changing some numbers on the AI that I think will transform the map a lot much harder (or I hope).

Still, Fey: I want to know the answerd for the version you played (1 vs 6).
Because maybe (maybe) <maybe> I'll do three versions:
Battle Royal (1vs1vs1vs1...): For regular-begginers (although I am going to do a few test to see if I can activate the Ordos's saboteurs).
Battle Royal <hard version> (1vs6 / 2vs5): for people with good enough skill to play good at max speed, they find the original version too easy. <= version will be 1vs6 or 2vs5 depending of your answerd.
Battle Royal <Nighmare version> (1 vs 6 Inflated ultra-powered Ais): For people that want to play Touhou but in Dune. Ai will cheat with the initial money (and because of that the priorities of the buildings will change too, he won't waste time on more harversters, etc...). 

I still don't know what changes I'll do to the "nightmare" version, but I am tempted to give the AI 999.999 credits in the original map-version (or 20.000 initial credits at least), just to give the AI some consistency to his attacks and giving the player a bit more of action.

Of course, the Hard version that Fey played will have the same "cheat" (or no, depending of his answerd), still the Ai will only have 1 of each building and etc...

Edited by Cm_blast
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1 minute ago, Cm_blast said:

I literally changed alliance Ordos with the player that's it.

The enemy attacks first and intervals of 10.000 ticks, that's 3.3 minutes in max speed, but at the first minute he already beat 1 AI. Then at 2:10 minutes the first Fremen attack, at 3:20 some infantry too and at 5 minutes a couple of devastators. It's not a big early attack (never was the original map); only the smugglers have a bit more stronger attack (more early money + starport, if he buy units), but that AI was defeated at 1 min.

And then at 6 min or so you can see a few more attacks, not strong, but the Harkonnen are going against the Ordos and the mercs are nowhere near the player to go against him.

By the time the enemy start having more power, aarmaageedoon already have an insane army, so he instatly win.

I mean, I saw a good deal more tanks. Maybe it's because I didn't instantly attack something? Maybe the morale went down for the enemy AI in aarmaageedoon's game.

Since I was going in blind, all I did for starts was scout and macro my economy and production. I was pumping out Combat Tanks nonstop and still ran into enough trouble.

4 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Since the attack timer act as random and the enemy it's playing "skirmish" the Ai it's not really anything near strong. The original map it's easy, just to messing around and etc.

aaaannnnd I can't beat myself the 1 vs 6 version map that Fey played, soooooo I am bad, that's why I am asking better players to test it.

Ah.

9 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Maybe I misunderstood.

I'll do the question better:
Did you enjoy the map to play it again in a future (or the other versions when I release them)? or you only played it because I told you so but you were that bored that are going to delete the file as soon as you finish it?

Because the point it's this: you (and players with some skill) are the ones that are going to play the 1 vs 6 version of the map, not me.

Oh! I'm always up for re-playing a map if updates have been made. Playing through drafts to help improve is just part of the testing process :P It was alright, but as I stated in my report, it progressed a little slowly. There's a lot one could nitpick about any given map, and map progression is one such thing.

12 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

As a final Note: I'm asking Aarmaageedoon for advice to do another version changing some numbers on the AI that I think will transform the map a lot much harder (or I hope).

Still, Fey: I want to know the answerd for the version you played (1 vs 6).
Because maybe (maybe) <maybe> I'll do three versions:
Battle Royal (1vs1vs1vs1...): For regular-begginers (although I am going to do a few test to see if I can activate the Ordos's saboteurs).
Battle Royal <hard version> (1vs6 / 2vs5): for people with good enough skill to play good at max speed.
Battle Royal <Nighmare version> (1 vs 6 Inflated ultra-powered Ais): For people that want to play Touhou but in Dune.

I still don't know what changes I'll do to the "nightmare" version, but I am tempted to do a "cheat" change in the original (and hard) version, like giving the Ai's 999.999 credits, for example, so even with the poor management of the Ai they'll will continue to build stuff, probably something more noticeable in the "original" version which it's really easy (I don't mind being easy, but just for consistency and adding a bit more of action to the player to be figthing a bit more than now).

Of course, the Hard version that Fey played will have the same "cheat" (or no, depending of his answerd), still the Ai will only have 1 of each building and etc...

That last version sounds interesting. You gonna work 'em up like I did my H5B1 AIs? They sustain well while pumping out lots of units and have no need for cheats, although given the higher tech level, you may need to adjust some calculations for this map.

Multiple buildings! More production! That'll help the AI out.

 

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24 minutes ago, Fey said:

Maybe the morale went down for the enemy AI in aarmaageedoon's game.

Morale it's at 100, so Ais are not affected by that. It's just the AI have poor economy management, they mighy overrun in the long play, but not too early.

24 minutes ago, Fey said:

Oh! I'm always up for re-playing a map if updates have been made

I mean. Just Imagine if I already release the map as it is now.
1 vs 6, the very same version you played, only with a proper briefing.
You would play it again as it is now? (I mean for fun, not for testing).

24 minutes ago, Fey said:

That last version sounds interesting. You gonna work 'em up like I did my H5B1 AIs? They sustain well while pumping out lots of units and have no need for cheats, although given the higher tech level, you may need to adjust some calculations for this map.

Multiple buildings! More production! That'll help the AI out.

I didnt' played your map yet, but this is a skirmish type of map; my idea it's to use hidden numbers (not spawn, extra reinforcements or buildings...) to make the AI stronger. Also with a quick look on your map the spice it's really near ro the AI, while in my map (well, the original skirmish map I used for this) it's a gamble to the AI depending on where he builds the ref.

Also, I don't want to give multiple buildings. the land it's not that big. A guy already have trouble because the Smugglers blocked himself with buildings, and it's not the first time I see the mercs deploying a building near one of their entrance nearby blocking that path.

But anyway; I am expecting the "unlimited money" (at least for the nightmare version) and then things like the ref being a low priority, thinks like that. Also, think about the initial buildings. You have Harkonnen building 2 devastators as his first units, mercs building raiders-quads. Smuggler buying stuff and Imperial training several Sardaukar at the beggining.

Withouth running out of money and not using the queue to build more harverster the AI will build non-stop. That should be enough.

Edited by Cm_blast
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1 minute ago, Cm_blast said:

Morale it's at 100, so Ais are not affected by that. It's just the AI have poor economy management, they mighy overrun in the long play, but not too early.

Oh. Hmm. I wonder why I saw so many tanks in my run. lol

2 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I mean. Judy Imagine if I already release the map as it is now.
1 vs 6, the very same version you played, only with a proper briefing.
You would play it again as it is now? (I mean for fun, not for testing).

Just the briefing? Well, probably not for a while after having played it once already. I tend to play over old maps every now and then.

2 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I didnt' played your map yet, but this is a skirmish type of map; my idea it's to use hidden numbers (not spawn, extra reinforcements or buildings...) to make the AI stronger. Also with a quick look on your map the spice it's really near ro the AI, while in my map (well, the original skirmish map I used for this) it's a gamble to the AI depending on where he builds the ref.

Oh, maybe the Refinery placement has something to do with the tanks in my run. lol

I listed the strongest AIs' construction calculations in the Harkonnen WIP thread. Yeah, they start with plenty of Spice, substantial starting forces, and they'll get reinforcements later on, but they are pretty damn powerful AIs! If you remove the reinforcements and starting forces, you'll have an AI that builds a lot and is pretty efficient. Oh, and I suppose the calculations are based around the power values for my mod, so... yeah. :P

6 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Also, I don't want to give multiple buildings. the land it's not that big. A guy already have trouble because the Smugglers blocked himself with buildings, and it's not the first time I see the mercs deploying a building near one of their entrance nearby blocking that path.

Lol, damn AI not doing what it's supposed to. I've been doing some work on H6V1 and the AI is pretty decent about reliably placing all buildings, but they still screw it up a little sometimes.

7 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

But anyway; I am expecting the "unlimited money" (at least for the nightmare version) and then things like the ref being a low priority, thinks like that. Also, think about the initial buildings. You have Harkonnen building 2 devastators as his first units, mercs building raiders-quads. Smuggler buying stuff and Imperial training several Sardaukar at the beggining.

You could also just give them a lot more starting credits. They'll eventually run out, but they'll be able to put a focus on attacking forces at first rather than economic infrastructure.

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Just now, Fey said:

Just the briefing? Well, probably not for a while after having played it once already. I tend to play over old maps every now and then.

Well, I'll release the other 6 factions too, but that's the deal. Just having a version that it's harder than the original one. Harder, but still possible to win even if you play it in hard.

4 minutes ago, Fey said:

You could also just give them a lot more starting credits. They'll eventually run out, but they'll be able to put a focus on attacking forces at first rather than economic infrastructure.

Yes, I am going to check the original version and thinking about giving extra initial money to the Ais. An overall weak early Ai, but not falling out of money too early. Of course the current 1 vs 6 hard version will have Ais with the same extra money too.

The 1 vs 6 nightmare version surely would have Ais with 999.999 credits on top of other stuff.

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I've played all sides a while a go. Worth it. Good job on the bug fixes!
It's a nice setup to begin with. You do get surprises attacks from time to time but it's all a skirmish mixup as expected.

Well Harkonnen is the hardest of em all if anybody agrees. But I've done it by capturing Emperor at the beginning of the match and so moving on his start loaction + Palace.

Also agree to the AI cash fact. The 'human' starting credits slow early AI productions. Even if you give them 40.000 starting credits, as in practice-hard Ai mode, it would probably make the match better. As the time goes by you do see a stable AI economy around 25.000 - 30.000 credit reserves. So no: ain't nobody AI gonna empty their cash pockets just to attack more, right?
No need to exaggerate, 999.999 credits... :D but I'm not against this idea either; it might even give the Harkonnen AI some push-ups, resisting better there in the middle of the map.

Edited by Hopachi
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On 1/4/2018 at 10:22 PM, Hopachi said:

Also agree to the AI cash fact. The 'human' starting credits slow early AI productions. Even if you give them 40.000 starting credits, as in practice-hard Ai mode, it would probably make the match better. As the time goes by you do see a stable AI economy around 25.000 - 30.000 credit reserves. So no: ain't nobody AI gonna empty their cash pockets just to attack more, right?
No need to exaggerate, 999.999 credits... :D but I'm not against this idea either; it might even give the Harkonnen AI some push-ups, resisting better there in the middle of the map.

I am already exploring the idea of giving the AI more initial credits; something like 20.000. I need to check the 7 Ais to be sure that it's a difference in the game (if there is really any difference), but also I am considering the "hard" version and the "nighmare" version with a similar set up; someone it's already helping me with some tips about what makes the AI strong and weak.

Edited by Cm_blast
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New update ready.

On this final update I added two alternative versions to the original concept, plus some changes here and there, like changing the 2 initial carryalls for the Atreides to a Repair pad instead (the high-tech factory allow you to build carryalls anyway).

For the original concept; the AI starts with 20.000 credits, so when the AI place the refinery on a bad spot he doesn't run so early out of money. It's still a 1 vs 1 vs 1 vs 1... but two near Ai's will focus the player first (interferences or other battles may change the behaviour).

It's still a easy map; but at least now the player it's going to be attacked from time to time, at least until the AI eventually runs out of money.

The hard version it's a 2 vs 5 map. The player has 1 Ally; this ally start with 20.000 credits (just like the original map); however the enemy Ai's start with 30.000 credits. They don't build at the best order, so you can use your tactics to outsmart the AI and his poor placement (if you can bypass his early advantage).

The AI given as an Ally change depending of your faction, so everymap has a different faction as an ally. This ally doesn't need to survive. you can sacrifice your ally if you want.

Finally it's the nightmare version. Aarmaageedoon defeated the Harkonnen version so far. I was waiting for him to say me if the Atreides one can be won, but for now I'll just update the first post and if later he can't win I'll do other changes.
I am already assuming that playing as Ordos (rocket turrets), mercenaries (free deliveries), Fremen (free reinforcements) and smuggler (extra harversters) are more easy that the Atreides version.

Again, the nightmare version it's like an ultimate challenge. This it's not only about a 1 vs 6 map, but those enemies may attaack with tanks/devastatorts, Sardaukar, Quads/trikes... in a couple of minutes. Plus the 40.000 initial credits given for the AI and making the refinery a bit lower priority building the AI can be hard to take down.

Edited by Cm_blast
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