(RT2Plat) Question About Cargo Delivery and Pickup

[RobS]

Despite having played this great game for many years now, I still don't understand two of the four delivery and pickup options:

The manual says:

Default – This is the same method as was used in RT2. If a cargo is not demanded at the current station but is demanded at a later station, it stays on the train, otherwise it is delivered at the current station.

Store – Undemanded cargoes are stored at the current station, and can be picked up by any train. Note, even the train that dropped them off can pick them up, so be sure to change your train's consist at this station or else you'll immediately pick up what you've just dropped off.

Deliver – Undemanded cargoes are delivered at the current station. You won't receive much money, though.

Leave on Train – Undemanded cargoes stay on the train, presumably for delivery or storage at a later station. Note, if you have this option set at all your stops, an undemanded cargo will stay on your train indefinitely.

Store and Deliver are obvious enough, but I don't understand the difference between Default and Leave on Train. Can someone explain this to me, preferably with an example?

[Silverback]

I don't think I've ever used  the Leave on train option, and rarely use deliver - I don't think I've used deliver to force delivery at a station!.

I mainly control delivery by changing the type of cars on the train. The Store flag I do use from time to time, for example where gathering loads at a central point for later delivery to a not yet build station or when using a Shay loco where gradients are steep for part of a journey, but normally default is fine. 

If the train consist is constant then leave on train (at all stations) is mainly useless I guess.

Now for the difference between Leave on Train and Default

For example for wool as a cargo. If a train goes from say a sheep farm to a station where wool is demanded and back again then if it has a wool car it will load with wool at the sheep farm but then it will never unload if leave on train is set. I suppose this could be useful if say there are 3 stations on the route.

Lets say stations 1 and 2 both supply wool and stations 2 and 3 both demand wool. The Train goes from 1 to 2 to 3 and then back to 1 without stopping again at no. 2 and has 4 wool cars throughout the journey.

If there are 2 car loads of wool at station 1 and 2 more at station 2, then as the train has 4 wool cars, 2 loads will be picked up at station 1. On arrival at station 2 and as wool is demanded, unless the leave on train flag is set then the 2 car loads of wool from station 1 will be unloaded and then the 2 loads being supplied by station 2 will be loaded and then delivered to station 3 (unless of course leave on train is set at station 3 also in which case the wool would be hauled to station 1 to be dealt with according to the station 1 flag settings). If leave on train were set at station 2 then station 3 would get 4 loads of wool. I suppose this could be useful if the factory demanding wool at station 2 was owned by another company.

Under the default flags the wool would be unloaded at station 2 as it is demanded there. If station 2 did NOT demand wool then Default and Leave on Train would have exactly the same effect for wool at that station provided the train consist was not changed. 

NB if a demand level falls to 0 at a well supplied station then the cargo is still demanded, you just don't get as much cash. The percentage of nominal value you get varies depending on the difficulty level being played.

 

One Scenario where Leave on train is suggested is Stria 1840, however this is somewhat odd, but the author suggests the following.

"Semmering tourist deliveries.
This event plays a bit different from the previous version. The passengers now have to be actually delivered to the station on top of the Semmering Pass. During my games I found it easiest to just set the delivery flag to yellow (Sell only demanded cargo, leave undemanded cargo on the train to be sold later) for the Semmering Pass destination since that destination is not likely to demand passengers. Therefore a train schedule might be:
Murzzuschlag (green-yellow),
Semmering Pass (yellow),
Gloggnitz (green-yellow),
Semmering Pass (yellow)."

This suggests the delivery counts for a number of passengers but not as a revenue sale!. I've always done what he suggests in the scenario without thinking about it! from the flag descriptions you would think "deliver" was the flag to set. Maybe its a bug? It certainly an oddity for the scenario does count the "deliveries" when flags are set as suggested. 

  

             

[RobS]

OK, the example with the wool explains it. I can see how this could be useful.

Thanks.

[jeffryfisher]

I don't think the explanation is correct. If a load arrives at a station where it is demanded, then it will always be sold, regardless of the flags..

Always.

Rules:

1) (Default) Force-sell all cargoes unless demanded at a later station. This is almost the same as the green flag.

2) (Red) Store at this station. For this to work, the train must also remove the car lest the cargo be loaded again.

3) (Green) Sell

4) (Yellow) Keep aboard train. For this to work, the cargo must NOT be demanded here, and the car must remain in the consist. If either of those becomes untrue, then the cargo will be sold anyway,

Usage: Yellow allows a partly filled train to pick up (more of) something when you're going to later visit a depot where you use the red flag to store something. In this case, there's no demand to guide the default setting.

I use yellow a lot, mainly because I don't trust defaults (and the flags remind me what I'm doing). I use red infrequently. I do sometimes use green, but I probably don't need it because my consist would force unwanted cargoes off the train anyway.

The description of the Stria scenario has something wrong with it. Perhaps the author expects the pass to eventually demand the pax and take them despite the yellow flag? Otherwise it should be green (or the consist should shrink to push pax off the train). To learn the truth, open the scenario in the editor to read its events.

[Silverback]

I agree I'm probably totally wrong with my understanding of yellow flags, especially as I rarely use yellow flagging. There are still thing to learn in this game from the last century!

Re Styria 1840 the events for the passengers are tested against a small territory which is where the Semmering Pass station needs to be situated. I have never seen more than one house there so passengers are not demanded and not many are generated (an occasional passenger will be generated there) but 4 or more passengers need to be hauled from the area annually. 

The pass will never demand passengers and I don't think the author ever expected it to. The previous version of the scenario used different mechanisms to count loads - A rail connection needed to be made via the pass first but then the passenger haulage requirement could be met by hauling between the territories either side of the pass via any route and not necessarily via the pass     

The event (labelled 143) uses CompanyTerritoryTypeLoadsHauledFromThis Year(0) < 4 to generate a penalty, and the status event (labelled 027) uses CompanyTerritoryTypeLoadsHauledFromThisYear(0) to count the passengers. It would seem that passengers on a train hauled from that territory are counted on delivery elsewhere but that they do not need to actually originate at the station in the territory but can be hauled in from elsewhere and then hauled out again on the same train.

As I've always followed the suggested method of flagging I don't know if other flag settings would give the desired outcome. Its a pity that the documentation written for the scenario isn't on the platinum disk as the authors hints are invaluable in completing it. The map download on this site has a version of one of the files attached (the v4.00 version) but not the other. (Microsoft word format unfortunately)

     

Styria1840-V400.doc

Styria1840 Hints-Strategy-Guide.doc

[RobS]

jeffryfisher, with all due respect, but your explanation is not only hopelessly confusing to me, but also self-contradicting.

 

You start by saying that whenever a cargo is in demand at a station, it will be sold, regardless of the flag settings. Yet, immediately after that, in your #1, you state that the default setting "force-sells" cargoes unless they are demanded at a later station, which contradicts your opening statement.

Your #2 makes sense.

Your #3 is ambiguous, mostly because I don't understand the difference between "sell" and "force-sell".

Your #4, again as I stated in my OP, seems identical to the default (#1).

While Silverback's wool example makes sense, the Stria example has me hopelessly lost.

I suppose I'll just need to do some testing to find out for myself.

Edited April 22, 2016 by RobS
clarification

[MaglevForever]

On 21/04/2016 at 11:12 AM, jeffryfisher said:

Yellow allows a partly filled train to pick up (more of) something when you're going to later visit a depot where you use the red flag to store something. In this case, there's no demand to guide the default setting.

This is exactly how I use the Yellow Flag also. I tend to believe that the combined Green + Yellow Flag was split in two in Platinum to complement the addition of the Red Flag to give more options for stockpiling runs that collect from multiple stations. If the Green Flag were removed, it's so marginally useful that I don't think I would miss it. As Jeffry said, consist changes make it pretty redundant.

 

I repeat two concepts that Jeffry already visited because they are of utmost importance.

1. When a train stops at a station, any cargo that is demanded at that station will be unloaded. Flags only affect what happens to any cargo types that are on the train but the station has no use for (undemanded).

2. If a consist change drops the car that carried a particular load to the station, that load will be unloaded. Any "stay on the train" flag option is only for cargoes that aren't unloaded from the train. The only option to keep the load from being sold is the Red Flag. In that case, the cargo is still unloaded from the train, but now it is stored safely in the station building.

 

Note:

#2 is dependent on #1. #2 doesn't apply at stations that have a use for that cargo type.

 

 

Here's an illustration of how I might use the Yellow Flag.

Stops 1 and 2 are Logging Camps on a graded spur. I use a slow, mountain loco here.

Stop 3 is a connection to my flat, straight main line where I want to stockpile the Logs,
   for pickup by a fast freight engine for subsequent delivery to the Lumber Mill itself.

Stop 1 can use any flag, the train is only loading here
Stop 2 needs the Yellow* Flag
Stop 3 uses the Red Flag

*There is the option to use the Red Flag at Stop 2. Only advantage for the Yellow is saving the time for the Logs that were picked up at Stop 1 to be unloaded from the train and then reloaded again.

 

What is the difference between Yellow and the combined Green + Yellow? The only difference is that the Yellow will allow a cargo to stay on a train even if it doesn't have any stops that demand the cargo on the entire route. It's a small difference and doesn't add to gameplay much except when the Red Flag is used on a route.

 

 

The tip for Styria 1840 is based on misunderstanding of the flags. You might have trouble believing me, but I never tried that map. So, I just worked far enough into it to get through the Semmering, and there is no reason to use the Yellow Flag at all. Using only the Green + Yellow works just as well for what the author intended. The author is counting the passage of loads through a one-house top-of-the-pass village to make sure that the pass is getting used. A player may try to build a circuitous route around the mountains instead. Events count the number of passengers departing from that village to punish players that aren't using the pass. An ingenious idea.

[jeffryfisher]

On 4/21/2016 at 3:42 PM, Silverback said:

The event (labelled 143) uses CompanyTerritoryTypeLoadsHauledFromThis Year(0) < 4 to generate a penalty, and the status event (labelled 027) uses CompanyTerritoryTypeLoadsHauledFromThisYear(0) to count the passengers. It would seem that passengers on a train hauled from that territory are counted on delivery elsewhere but that they do not need to actually originate at the station in the territory but can be hauled in from elsewhere and then hauled out again on the same train.

With those events, you should park an empty train there with two pax cars set to pick up at least a half-load (at least one pax) and then deliver them somewhere. If there's nothing demanded at the pass, then haul some worthless freight back so you can again sit and wait for the next pax or two. The flag at the pass can be green to force-sell whatever comes in so you have an empty train for hauling out.

[jeffryfisher]

On 4/22/2016 at 8:05 PM, RobS said:

You start by saying that whenever a cargo is in demand at a station, it will be sold, regardless of the flag settings.

Yet, immediately after that, in your #1, you state that the default setting "force-sells" cargoes unless they are demanded at a later station, which contradicts your opening statement.

Your #3 is ambiguous, mostly because I don't understand the difference between "sell" and "force-sell".

Your #4, again as I stated in my OP, seems identical to the default (#1).

While Silverback's wool example makes sense, the Stria example has me hopelessly lost.

I suppose I'll just need to do some testing to find out for myself.

Let's clarify terms then.

#1: I meant exactly what I wrote. If a train stops at a station demanding cargo on that train, then the cargo will be sold, period. That means that if a passenger train arrives with both filled and empty passenger cars at a town or city, then there is no setting of the flags that will stop the filled cars from selling. There's no way (at a station serving 4+ houses) to fill the empty cars without first selling the full cars.

There's no contradiction in the second part, because it deals with cargo that is NOT demanded at the stop (the 1st part dealt with cargo that is demanded). If a train carrying cargo stops at a station that does not demand that cargo, then the default flags (green + yellow) will sell it anyway... unless there's a later stop that demands it.

#3 is as unambiguous as a statement can be. If the flag is simple green, then all cargo will be sold, period. Consist matters not. Demand matters not. There's nothing else to know.

#4 (Yellow) is not the same as #1 (default). Given no change in consist, yellow will keep cargoes aboard that are not demanded at the current station regardless of demand at later stations.

Therefore, if there's no demand at any station in the route, yellow will keep a cargo aboard, but the default will sell it.

[RobS]

4 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Let's clarify terms then.

#1: I meant exactly what I wrote. If a train stops at a station demanding cargo on that train, then the cargo will be sold, period. That means that if a passenger train arrives with both filled and empty passenger cars at a town or city, then there is no setting of the flags that will stop the filled cars from selling. There's no way (at a station serving 4+ houses) to fill the empty cars without first selling the full cars.

There's no contradiction in the second part, because it deals with cargo that is NOT demanded at the stop (the 1st part dealt with cargo that is demanded). If a train carrying cargo stops at a station that does not demand that cargo, then the default flags (green + yellow) will sell it anyway... unless there's a later stop that demands it.

#3 is as unambiguous as a statement can be. If the flag is simple green, then all cargo will be sold, period. Consist matters not. Demand matters not. There's nothing else to know.

#4 (Yellow) is not the same as #1 (default). Given no change in consist, yellow will keep cargoes aboard that are not demanded at the current station regardless of demand at later stations.

Therefore, if there's no demand at any station in the route, yellow will keep a cargo aboard, but the default will sell it.

OK, got it this time.

I'll see how it works next time I'm in the mood to mes around with it. Amazing that I've been playing this game for a decade-and-a-half without ever messing with the flag settings.

Thanks for your explanation.