Warcraft 2; incorrect information?

[MrFlibble]

I never knew this worked! I assumed their arrows would only damage the air unit then xD

This is actually an "official" strategy mentioned in the Warcraft II Compendium:

http://classic.battle.net/war2/units/ogre.shtml

[MrFlibble]

Not about Warcraft II, but quite similar:

http://www.7kfans.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=755

With Seven Kingdoms though, the source code is available.

[X3M]

Sometimes combat equations are really a hassle. And often incorrect explained or incorporated into the game.

The one that you have posted. Really strange and experimental concept.

 

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I find the one used in Warzone2100 also chaotic.

In 90% of the cases however, it is balanced well enough. But those 10% is what the players like to abuse.

 

http://betaguide.wz2100.net/Formulas.html

You need to reread this page at least 1 time to fully understand. Since they explain it backwards -.-

 

When knowing the starting damages. You also know that some calculations are bullshit.

For example, a rapid fire weapon with low damage will almost always use 1/3th basic damage as calculation. Especially in the end games. Where even cyborgs have an armor that is high enough to reduce at least with 2/3th of the basic damage.

Only when one player sits idle and another player upgrades to a maximum, will the formula take effect.

This is the same as upgrading all the melee units in warcraft2 for battling structures. Makes no sense (except when using bloodlust).

 

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Strange thing is, almost no one understands the combat equation in Projectile.

A < D? Use A.

D < A? Use D.

 

As simple as that :D.

 

However, A and D are always square numbers while the unit costs are linear. I often meet some one who suddenly wants to design units with 40 D or 20 A. While in other games, these numbers will do fine. In Projectile itself, it makes absolutely no sense to use numbers like that.

 

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Personally. If possible, don't use a formula. But a simple table will do anyway.

If a game uses upgrades. Then it is understandable to use a formula. After all, one value changes.

However, this too can be used in a table.

I don't know what is faster. Calculating the value for each unit, or simply looking up in a table? Programmers know.

[X3M]

With the help of anydice.com and some general tricks on paper (excel). I can calculate how many hits an unit needs for killing another unit. But more importantly with the % chances of how many times this occurs. A clear view on 1 on 1 chances can appear. No simulation, but perfect calculation, yaaay!! Results show, weird stuff. Some situations are very deterministic. Others show more randomness. It is clear that randomness increases when health and/or damage increases.

The reason why I did this is because I want to know if upgrades have use or not. Why spend money on something, if it has no use for the player?

Some upgrades add notching to the unit for the primary purpose. Some upgrades are simply an arms race, but end up making no difference.

I had some fun calculating the number of hits needed for an archer/axethrower to defeat an archer/axethrower or ranger/berserker.
Also, I pitted a fully upgraded ranger vs berserker(no selfhealing). And the results are (rounded) about 70% in favor for the ranger, and only about 3,5% for the axethrower. The rest is a tie.
The situation flipped due to bloodlust, is an almost 100% victory for the berserker.

My first conclusions. Get that bloodlust!!! But also, get that +3 damage upgrade on the ranger.

If any one is interested in another calculation. Please let me know.

My plan is, when I have time. To make a bigger database. Not pitting 2 units. But actually calculate for 1 type of damage, the whole aray of target configurations. armor x health. But I need to brainstorm on how the table should look like.

 

[X3M]

It has been..... such a long time since I posted here.
A discussion came up on a Warcraft 2 video. In the comments.

Someone is claiming to have read the source code.
Right.... I should go back to testing and see the results.

Anyway, the commenting happens here:

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by X3M

[X3M]

Alright, I did some testing.

I made a .pud with a castle, lumber mill, archer and 1 pig farm.

The pig farm has been very victorious in a couple of battles.

I edited the lumber mill to have 0 armor.

And the archer to do 0 basic and 0 piercing damage.

As expected, the +1 upgrade allows for 1 to 2 damage.
The second +1 upgrade still allows for 1 to 2 damage.
And then the +3 upgrade..... did nothing!

I re-edited the map and gave the archer 3 basic damage.
This time the first +1 upgrade didn't increase.
The second +1 upgrade now allowed for the 5 and 6 damage to pop up against the 0 armor.
And against the castle, the damage went from 0 to 1-2 damage after the first upgrade.
The +3 upgrade didn't increase the damage against the lumber mill. But suddenly the castle started taking 5 and 6 damages altogether as well.

And while bloodlusted rangers are a thing. The basic damage was always nulled, even the double one. It is just that there is no damage increase by the +3 piercing against 0 armored units.
Rangers and Berserker stand on equal grounds...In fact...
Berserkers have healing and now have a slight better chance than a Ranger.
Well..."now" is not the correct word. It was always that way. And I always made an assumption.

Either way, knowing this. I can think of a new table of results, all possible upgrades:

3 basic, 6 piercing
0 armor: 5-10
2 armor: 4-8
4 armor: 3-6

3 basic, 7 piercing (+1)
0 armor: 5-10
2 armor: 4-8
4 armor: 4-8 (+33%)

3 basic, 8 piercing (+2)
0 armor: 6-12 (+20%)
2 armor: 5-10 (+25%)
4 armor: 4-8 (+33%)

9 piercing (3B -> 3P)
0 armor: 5-10
2 armor: 5-10 (+25%)
4 armor: 5-10 (+67%)

10 piercing (3B -> 3P +1)
0 armor: 5-10
2 armor: 5-10 (+25%)
4 armor: 5-10 (+67%)

11 piercing (3B -> 3P +2)
0 armor: 6-12 (+20%)
2 armor: 6-12 (+50%)
4 armor: 6-12 (+100%)

Obviously it is still worth getting the upgrade.
The first +1 upgrade is still, almost useless. But nessesary for the 2nd +1 upgrade.

[X3M]

I see you liked my last 3 posts, MrFlibble.

I got a lot of tldr kind of things to say. So...Are you perhaps interested in something specific, regarding the game?

[X3M]

Interesting analysis of splash damage:

Here we see that splash is always the same damage. But then "doubled" in case there is no need for it. And thus then divided by 8.
This means that 100 points in the centre. Always has 200 more points divided over the other squares. Well.... it does go wrong in 1 regard.
Often, the total damage is twice that of the damage displayed.
In short.... 25% of the maximum damage is used for a splash location.

A Catapult does a maximum of 80, 95(96) or 110 damage against 0 armor.
Same values are 60, 75(76) or 90 damage against 20 armor.

As for the splash. 25% of these values mean:
20, 24 or 28.

Not sure how armor is subtracted from the splash damage.
A fact remains that buildings don't take splash. Well, that needs to be tested.

Another question would be...following up on these analysis of this good sir.
Would be testing if armor is subtracted from the "100%" value. Or the "25%" value.
We get 2 possible notable different results when facing the Paladin, having 8 armor. Against an unupgraded catapult.

80-8=72.
25%*72=18.
or...
25%*80=20.
20-8=12.

Either we roll on average a 13.5 or a 9. Well, I am one for having an easier test.
Might as well give the Paladin a whooping armor of 20.

80-20=60.
25%*60=15.
or...
25%*80=20.
20-20=0.

[X3M]

O wow. So 25% is first calculated. Only afterwards the armor subtracted.
This is Veeeerrrry interesting to know.
Also interesting to know is that if you don't deal damage with splash... whatever unit is in the splash radius. Will simply stay there unprovoked.
In other words. You can only provoke units by dealing damage with splash.

A ballista or catapult doesn't have armor.
So for battling these with splahs, armor is simply not included anyway.

As for my theory on having to deal damage. I am going to do one more test...
An archer with 0 damage, and an attack range of 15.

3 results from this test:

- An attack range maximum is 15 on the archer. However, the +1 attack range upgrade does increase this with 1.
So an attack range of 16 can be done too. (I honestly don't understand how I didn't test this for the past 3 decades...)
- As for provoking. Even with 0 damage, you still will provoke an Ogre with an Archer. This because the attack is directly.
- As for having different ROF on archers, one standing close and another far away. They keep the same ROF, the ROF is therefor separate from animations.

Is there something else that I forgot to test here?

[X3M]

Here some sad news though.

Most websites displaying unit statistics, give 0 armor to all flying units and oil tankers...

But the original game has:

- 10 armor for oil tankers.

- 5 armor for dragons/gryphons.

- And 2 armor for zeppelins/flying machines.

Also, the wood cost of an oil tanker is often mentioned to be 250. But we all know it is only 200.
And the oil cost of the subs is 900, not 800...
The gold cost of the demolition units is 700, not 750...
Why do they keep making these mistakes?

[X3M]

Trying to put together an Excel sheet that calculates the costs of the units in the game.

Now that I got the splash factor included. And also the yes/no usage of farms...
The following units get to the same costs so far: Grunts/Ogre's/Catapults.
And this surprised me.

But the axethrower is still of. And the following factors here might be the case:
- Factoring in anti air capabilities. Is it a +50% weight? +100% weight? What did they use?
- I have several ways to calculate the weight of support and/or meat units. Maybe I shouldn't? And simply use a hard factor of 50% on structures?

[Szwagier]

I didnt see that topic

The Combat Equation

Every unit and building has a certain amount of hit points. These hit points represent how much damage they can take before the unit is killed, or the building is destroyed. When a unit attacks another unit or building, there is a simple equation that is used to determine the amount of damage that is taken. Before we get to this equation, there are a few points you have to understand about Warcraft 2, and it's inner-workings.

Armor - Every unit and buiding in the game has an armor rating. This rating shows how much defense that particular unit has. Obviously, the higher this rating is, the better it is. All buildings (walls included) have a defense rating of 20.

Basic Damage - Basic damage is the type of damage units do, that IS affected by the targets Armor rating.

Piercing Damage - Piercing damage is the type of damage that IS NOT affected by the targets Armor rating.

The Equation

((Basic Damage - Armor) + Piercing Damage) = Total Damage

Now, take the total you get here and divide it by 2. If the division leaves you with a .5 decimal, round it up to the nearest 1. That value you have now is the minimum amount of damage your unit will inflict per attack. Warcraft 2 takes this minimum value, and multiplies it by a random number from 1-2. As you can see, an attack will take off any value between the minimum value, and 2 times the minimum value. That is why the maximum amount is 2 times the minimum. Confused yet? Here are some examples.

Level 1 Footman / Level 1 Ogre

Let's say a level 1 footman attacks a level 1 ogre. The footman has a basic damage of 6, a piercing damage of 3, and an armor rating of 2. An ogre has a basic damage of 8, a piercing damage of 4, and an armor rating of 4.
Remember the equation now : ((Basic Damage - Armor) + Piercing Damage
If the footman attacks the ogre: ((6 - 4) + 3 = 5.
We take this value of 5 and divide it by 2. This gives us 2.5, which we then round up to 3 (always round up if you are left with a .5). This gives us the minimum amount of damage the footman will do against the ogre. A random number from 1-2 is multiplied to this value by the game, leaving us with a value between 3 and 6. Therefore, every attack a level 1 footman makes on a level 1 ogre will cause 3-6 points of damage.

Now let's look at the ogre attacking the footman: ((8 - 2) + 4) = 10.
Dividing this value by 2 gives us 5. That means that every attack on the footman will do between 5-10 points of damage.

Level 5 Footman / Level 1 Ogre

Now I will use the same units, but this time I will use a level 5 footman, against a level 1 ogre to demonstrate the importance of smith upgrades.
Footman attacking the ogre: (10 - 4) + 3 = 9.
Dividing 2 gives us a value of 4.5 which we round up to 5. Each attack will do between 5-10 damage.

Ogre attacking the footman: (8 - 6) + 4 = 6
Dividing by 2 gives us a value of 3. Each attack will do between 3-6 damage. You can see how big of a difference upgrading you units makes.

Remember that you can find all the unit and building statistics in the map editor.

 

Bloodlust Mechanics

Over the years, I've seen countless number of people who don't know the truth behind the inner-workings of bloodlust. Hopefully this page will clarify some of the misconceptions that are out there.

2x the Damage
When you cast bloodlust on any unit in the game, it will double that units basic damage and their piercing damage. This makes it sound like the unit will be 4 times as strong now, but this isn't the case. Many people believe bloodlust makes a unit 3 times as strong. So what the heck does it really do?

Note: Make sure you've read the page on Combat Equations before moving on here.

Bloodlust Mechanics

Over the years, I've seen countless number of people who don't know the truth behind the inner-workings of bloodlust. Hopefully this page will clarify some of the misconceptions that are out there.

2x the Damage
When you cast bloodlust on any unit in the game, it will double that units basic damage and their piercing damage. This makes it sound like the unit will be 4 times as strong now, but this isn't the case. Many people believe bloodlust makes a unit 3 times as strong. So what the heck does it really do?

Note: Make sure you've read the page on Combat Equations before moving on here.

Bloodlust Equations
The following is a bunch of equations demonstrating how much damage an ogre can dish out.

Level 1 ogre attacks a level 5 knight: ((8 - 8  ) + 4 = 4. The ogre will do 2-4 damage per hit.

Level 1 ogre with bloodlust attacks a level 5 knight: ((16 - 8  ) + 8 = 16. The ogre will do 8-16 damage per hit. That's 4.0 times as strong as the ogre without bloodlust! Don't be fooled. It's only 4 times as strong because the damage done with no bloodlust is so small.

Level 5 ogre attacks a level 5 knight: ((12 -8  )+ 4 = 8. The ogre will do 4-8 damage per hit.

Level 5 ogre with bloodlust attacks a level 5 knight: ((24 -8  ) + 8 = 24. The ogre will do 12-24 damage per hit. That's 3.0 times as strong as the ogre without bloodlust. 

The 2 previous examples demonstrate how important the weapon upgrades are to a unit with bloodlust. Because the basic damage gets doubled, each weapon upgrade becomes 2 times as strong when bloodlust is cast on that unit.

A death knight attacks anything : ((0 - armor rating) + 9 = 9. The death knight will do 5-10 damage every attack to ANY unit or building.

A death knight with bloodlust attacks anything : ((0 - armor rating) + 18 = 18. The death will do 9-18 damage every attack to ANY unit or building. This isn't even 2 times as much as the death knight without bloodlust.

So...
You can see how strange bloodlust actually is. There are so many factors that different units attacking different things, causes damages to be very strange. We've seen a unit with bloodlust that does 3.5 times the amount of damage, and a unit that doesn't even double it's attack power. Generally, it depends alot on the basic damage and the defenders armor rating. Any unit that only attacks with piercing damage (dragons, griffons, mages, death knights) will never do any better than doubling their attack power with bloodlust. While other situations will cause a unit to do 4 times as much damage. I can tell you that bloodlust will ALWAYS be within the range of 1.8 - 4.0 times as strong per attack.

Why doesn't my Lusted Ogre take out 3x as many Knights?
A lusted ogre would actually take out 3x as many knights if he could fight them individually. But think about it this way. If 3 knights attack a bloodlusted ogre, they are hitting 3x as much as the ogre can. That means the 3 knights are doing the same amount of damage as the ogre is, but they only have the 1 unit to kill. The ogre has to work his way through all 3 knights (270hp). The ogre might kill off 1 of the knights before he dies because his lusted attack is concentrated (whereas the 3 knights have will have to move an extra step or 2 to get into position), but the constant attack of 3 knights will easily take down one ogre before it is even close to killing all 3 knights.

Remember
Bloodlust doubles your basic and piercing damage ratings. This means that sword upgrades are more important to units that have bloodlust cast on them. Try to have both of your sword upgrades complete by the time you get lust. On the other side, the only thing that will cause lusted units to do less damage are your shield upgrades. Increasing your armor rating will bring down the total amount of damage bloodlust will do. Unit with no armor (archers for example) will always take 3.5 - 4.0 as much damage!

 

Here you can read more about warcraft 2, its very old web

https://occult.war2.ru/strategy.shtml.htm

 

P.S on this Tastless video is my gameplay

Edited January 26 by Szwagier

[X3M]

You didn't see the topic? If you are talking about the discussion in the comment section of that video. I am sure it is lost now in the numerous comments.

Great to hear it was your gameplay that they watched.

I think you made a typo.
0 armor takes only 2x amount of damage from bloodlust.

Another trivia:
If the armor equals the basic damage. And you apply bloodlust. You get once more that basic damage.
If no piercing damage is present. You can go from 0 damage to any damage that the basic damage (and armor) are.
And this is a factor "infinity"

Either way, thank you for repeating it all once more.

The link you provided. Has some mistakes from time to time.
But also some very cool and vital information as well.

The level 1 defence of a footman is 2, not 4. This is in the section of fighting towers.
Seeing as how the information is given.
I assume it had to be a knight instead.
Which in this case would indeed make sense.

I love how the Axolotl's guide shows a 3 wide forrest (top to down) act as only 2 wide in regards of sappers as well.
And in some places you can chop 3 wide in 1 go as well.
That is very important knowledge.

I spot some more mistake(s) though. If it is your website, want me to PM them to you instead?

[X3M]

Pondering about the upgrade balance now.

Seeing as how lower damage value's have more of a percentile increase than higher damage value's.
Should I make upgrades cheaper when the units get less of a percentile bonus?
And would it only be the damage? Or should I include the armor changes as well?

[Szwagier]

Noone will upgarde that web

[X3M]

Not sure what you are talking about.

A re-balance is my goal. But only for custom made maps. As if they are single player missions.
I will be using the lessons I learned from balancing other RTS games.

Either way, the re-balance that I have in mind will mostly increase the damages of the archers axethrowers and the destroyers.
Yes, this is where it all started. They felt so weak in custom maps. And in the single player campaign, you really only use them when you camp.
And the upgrades take a lot from your treasure chest too, if you are to use them. A total of 11600 for the orcs and 11100 for the humans.
Melee is only 6800. And another 3000 to 4000 for the magic.
Also, the towers seem to be to weak in their health status.
Other than that, I already took a look at how I could make more faction differences.

The boost is not much on the archers and axethrowers at first. From 6 to 10 piercing. But with this, they are immediately on par with the melee units. And are now a valid support option. They get the job done. The axethrowers exchanged 2 piercing again for more health. And their regeneration is much more valid now. While they can get bloodlust. This effect is often only used against gryphon riders. So, the berserkers are stronger in their primairy role this way. The archers in theirs that of extra dps. The upgrade costs of both go down a bit. Not much, but noticable, so an archer/axethrower rush is now a strategy too.

The towers get more health, all of them. The costs of the upgrades are also a bit different. A major difference is the astetics of the towers, where the orc variants look like they are still made of paper mache. And so, thus they are still made of paper mache. Their health boost is less, but get more damage in return.

As for the grunt and ogre, I give them an extra 2 basic damage, and 50% more armor. The upgrades on armor remain the same. But the damage upgrades are slighlty cheaper. The costs of the grunt is 800 and the Ogre is 1100/100

The destroyers, I made no differences. The damage goes from 35 up to 56. This due to their cost.
The battleships are almost perfectly balanced. Had to reduce their health from 150 down to 140. This means that the number of shots needed to take one down with a destroyer, goes from 8 down to 4.

The dragons and gryphon riders.... well, practically speaking they are a yes/no unit. And mathematically speaking, they were perfectly balanced already. Seeing as how the AA units play a bigger role now. The dragons and gryphon riders are less viable in their roles. Still, I need to look into the magic stuff for rebalance. But I suspect, the archers/axethrowers are going to be needed more than ever. In contrairy than the mages/death knights.

Catapult and Ballista.... well, I love adjusting them. But it turns out, these are perfectly balanced to begin with. And with the towers getting their health upgrade, it would be more viable to get them too. Since I love adjusting them, I decided to only adjust the Ballista, giving it more attack range, while reducing the damage. The upgrade costs for this one increases.

The 2 units that still need to be looked at are the submarine units and the magic casters.
Chances are, they get a higher cost due to being able to cast magic. I am going to include the magic as a double DPS system. I simply need to calculate it all. And yes, some magic is stronger than other magic. So, I need to let loose my "choice" math. I will only explain if asked though.