Problem with demand and supply of products in Editor

[Bas]

Hello fellow Railroaders,

 

This is my first time I post something on the forum with this account, I had an account back in 2008, but since then took a break from Railroad Tycoon 3. But now I'm back with RRT3 since a few months and I have started making my own map. The map has no flaws except for just one that spoils the entire game, I have for some reason no products to supply or to demand. In the ''Overview'' tab I only see ''Diesel'', and that's it. If I run a railway line from point A to B on the map, the train doesn't transport anything at all. No food, no steel, not even passengers or mail.

I think I did something wrong with the settings, but I don't which one exactly.

 

Thank you for making a very useful forum for RRT3 & RRT2.

Bas

[MaglevForever]

Hi there, I have an idea what your problem might be. To make a map you are obviously using the editor. While in the editor mode the game doesn't randomly place or seed the map with industries, houses and farms. It is necessary to save your map, exit to the Main Menu then use Load a New Scenario to open it to play. Then you can test it. Hope this helps.

[Bas]

Thanks for the advice, but I have already done that several times.

If you take for example the map ''Eastern Canada'' you can see that the products are already available. I'm talking about 10 to 15 products, my map has only 1 as I already said.

Any other suggestions? It's a frustrating problem.

Bas

[MaglevForever]

Sorry to take a while to reply. I am assuming that the map looks normal with plenty of industries, houses, farms etc. The only other reason I can think of right now for a cargo not to appear is if there is not a demand for it on the map. If the map has seeded correctly I don't think that could be the problem. If you want you could try to zip it into a file and attach it to a post using the option from the "More Reply Options" window where you can make attachments.

[Bas]

Kazakhstan.zip

That's a good idea. Here's the map. Feel free to change the settings! 

[MaglevForever]

Ok, the culprit is the switch for "Use Wartime Cargoes" in the Special Restrictions list. Depending on what events you are planning for your map, you may also want to consider whether to have the scenario in slow time. There is another switch in the list for this. These switches are not used often, mainly for the campaign scenarios such as The War Effort (both) and "The Seeder" (just slow time).

 

Interesting area of the world. Please share the map when you are finished.

 

A tip for map making, don't save the map with the same name in the editor. Use a different one each time and delete the old ones. Graphics quality will deteriorate if you don't. Also there are many tips for setting up all the different game events (medals, challenges etc.) in Oilcan's guide that is available in the Extras section at the Hawk and Badger Railroad site. There is lots of other good stuff there also.

[Bas]

Thanks so much! The map is now working correctly. Once I'm done with making the map more detailed and when I'm done with putting up a scenario, I will upload the map to the site.

Thanks for helping!

[Bas]

Hey,

If anyone is interested in making a scenario for my nearly blank map, feel free to do so, because I'm not too good at making scenarios for a map.

I've already added several events, but they do not work very well. If you want to have the entire scenario different, then don't hesitate to do so. Just remember that Kazakhstan was declared independent from the USSR in 1991.

  Kazakhstan.zip

[Gwizz]

Where are the farming and industries located?  The name and location of the  highest mountains and/or population centers.

 

How about historical time lines and through traffic of cargo routing.  Any knowledge of importance would be helpful. 

[Bas]

Sorry for the lack of information. 

There are five cities in Kazakhstan that are the most important for rail transport: Almaty (the former capital and largest city), Astana (the current capital city), Atyrau (important city for connections to Russia), Aktau (a town with an important port), and Shymkent, the second largest city. All railway lines were built between 1890 and 1930. The most important rail connections are: Almaty-Atyrau (twice daily service), Almaty-Astana (4 times daily service), Atyrau-Aktau (daily service) and Almaty-Shymkent (as part of the Almaty-Atyrau service).

A list of the largest cities in Kazakhstan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan#Demographics

The company currently running all rail services in the country is called ''Kazakhstan Temir Zholy'':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qazaqstan_Temir_Zholy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%96_%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%85%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD_(2).svg

The 3 most important lines in the country are:

The Trans-Aral Railway, running from Tashkent to Orenburg, connects in Kazakhstan the border of Uzbekistan and Atyrau to the border of Russia. The Atyrau-Aktau rail service runs a part in this line, too.

and the Turkestan-Siberia railway, running from Tashkent to Barnaul in Russia, connects in Kazakhstan Almaty and Semipalatinsk.

Most railways are single tracked, because there are only a few trains per day running on them. Freight trains yield to long-haul intercity trains.

 

Uranium, port products, oil, gas and cotton gets produced in the west of the country,

iron, steel and coal are produced in the north, 

lumberjack productions sites are because of the dense forests located in the northeast,

high-tech and modern industries are located in the area around Almaty,

Sheep, cows and other cattle products are located in the area around Uzbekistan, in the steppe and the area around Astana,

and the military production factories and barracks are located in the southwestern cities.

 

The largest mountain is the Khan Tengri mountain at the borders of Kyrgyzstan, China and Kazakhstan, as where all high mountains in the country are located. The center and south of Kazakhstan is steppe, the west is lowland, the northeast is slightly mountainous and has dense forests, just like the north. Kazakhstan is overall not a very mountainous country. Earthquakes, tornadoes and tsunamis rarely occur, although forest fires do happen in the warmer months of the year. But the landscape is nothing to worry about, I've already did that for you as you see.

 

I hope this motives anyone to create a scenario, if you have any questions, don't hesitate and ask me them!

Bas

[Gwizz]

Any short RR lines with steam locomotives?  Diesel or Electric locomotives?  Countries at the borders with rail lines.

[Bas]

Any short RR lines with steam locomotives?  Diesel or Electric locomotives?  Countries at the borders with rail lines.

I do not know what you exactly mean, but the railways in Kazakhstan are around 75% unelectrified, on those tracks run diesel trains. On the electrified tracks are running diesel trains too, but also electric trains. Have a look here for more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan_Temir_Zholy#Rolling_stock

[Gwizz]

Cargo crosses the border in both directions. 

I'm looking for connecting points with other RRs at the borders. 

The narrow gauge RR will use river ports to exchange cargoes;

since you can't easily exchange cars.   Is the Narrow gauge for

passenger and cargo or only for one or the other.

 

What do you think the map's starting date should be. 

 

Make a time line of what could happen on this map;

 

List Major events, wars, crashes, Take over of leadership, etc.

I will often bend history somewhat to fit the needs of my maps.  

Give it a story line,  If you like.  If you lack history you could make some up.

When you get the above figured out, I will help you build your map.  

[Bas]

Cargo crosses the border in both directions. 

I'm looking for connecting points with other RRs at the borders. 

The narrow gauge RR will use river ports to exchange cargoes;

since you can't easily exchange cars.   Is the Narrow gauge for

passenger and cargo or only for one or the other.

 

What do you think the map's starting date should be. 

 

Make a time line of what could happen on this map;

 

List Major events, wars, crashes, Take over of leadership, etc.

I will often bend history somewhat to fit the needs of my maps.  

Give it a story line,  If you like.  If you lack history you could make some up.

When you get the above figured out, I will help you build your map.  

 

The current rail lines connect the neighboring countries of Russia, China, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan.

 

Major events for Kazakhstan and the railroading industry:

1991: The former USSR declares Kazakhstan as an independent republic, and forces the country to hold elections

August 1991: Nazarbayev is the new chairman of presidency (the new and first president)

1996: Nazarbayev reelected with 80% of the votes cast

1996: Kazakhstan Airlines declares bankruptcy, passenger rail transport increases slightly.

December 1997: Capital change from Almaty to Astana (passenger numbers of Almaty decrease slightly, Astana passenger numbers increase slightly)

1998: Eschede train disaster occurs, 101 dead, passenger rail transport decreases for a short period of time.

2006: The national airline Air Astana is growing fast, passenger rail transport declines.

2006: GDP grows 10,9%

2008: Financial crisis starts, less passengers to transport.

2011: Nazarbayev reelected for his fourth term with 95,6% of the votes cast.

2012: GDP grows 6%

 

Hope this helps. Personally, I would start the scenario in 1991, because that's the year Kazakhstan got independent.

I would really appreciate it if you'd edit the scenario. Go ahead if you have any more questions.

Bas

[Gwizz]

Lets put the start up date in 1991 and ending date in 2011.

 

Do you have any information on the changes that took place for cargo at the borders.

 

Passenger traffic can change generally at the points you indicated.

 

What do you want to do at the borders where the RR crosses to a different county.

(Example:  Is the crossings of cargo at the border about the same as if the new country didn't exist.)

(Example:  What changed took place, if anything, when Kazakhstan became a county.)

 

Did it have a political past before 1991?  Something that would have affected the  creation of the country.

Something that would continued into the county's new life after 1991, especially if it affected the railroads.  

 

As you plan this, think how can  an event or Railroad activity give a challenge for the game player .

 

I'm thinking this might be a good joint project for others to chime in on with ideas.  There are some sharp players on this Forum.  

[Bas]

Little has changed for the railways in Kazakhstan since it's independence, except for new locomotives and electrification.

 

But from what I've read is that the trade to and from Russia is since 1991 declining, but the trade to China is growing rapidly. So that may have an effect on the railroading industry. You could do that as a challenge. 

I think a good goal is to transport from 1991 to 2011 or 2014 an x number of passengers from Almaty to Astana, Almaty to Atyrau, Atyrau to Aktau AND Astana to Atyrau for bronze, for silver transport an x number of a specific goods between all of those towns, and for winning gold.... I don't know, you may say what to do for gold.

And of course, this looks easy, but with a lot of events which I said 2 posts ago, that'll make the scenario more difficult and more interesting to play.

 

But it's a really good idea for others to give ideas. If anyone has a good or interesting ideas to put in this scenario, please tell us :)

Bas

[MaglevForever]

Ok, I had a closer look at the map. I noticed some of the texture changes on the map are quite abrupt. Using the blur tool on it or decreasing the opacity of the brush when painting should help. Also many of the rivers are not right. They look like a dashed line - - - - instead of a smooth one ------. Please take this as constructive criticism. I always like to see new maps!

 

Any more details on the story for the scenario?

 

First off, I don't know much about Kazakhstan. I did a small amount of research just now. Enough to ask a few potentially "sensible" questions. Strike any of my suggestions down if they aren't in line with what happens there or your view for the scenario.

 

I am assuming that most of the KTZ's railways were already built in 1991 at the start of the scenario. Were you thinking to have pre-built track for this? (Think Poland from PopTop).

 

I read that private companies can pay a fee to run on KTZ's track. Are you planning to have the player in charge of KTZ or another company? Is their a company that hauls passengers? Did you want to make this mainly about hauling passengers?

 

Have you thought about which engines to use for the map? I, personally, like scenarios with good engine selection and events to make those engines even more meaningful to strategy. I don't care if a North American engine such as the GP-7 is used to represent a local engine. What I dis-like is an open selection of locos especially of engines such as the Trans-Euro, Class 103, or Deltic which I can't imagine being used in a place like Kazakhstan.

 

[Gwizz]

Back from the almost dead.  Will talk more later.

[Bas]

Ok, I had a closer look at the map. I noticed some of the texture changes on the map are quite abrupt. Using the blur tool on it or decreasing the opacity of the brush when painting should help. Also many of the rivers are not right. They look like a dashed line - - - - instead of a smooth one ------. Please take this as constructive criticism. I always like to see new maps!

 

Any more details on the story for the scenario?

 

First off, I don't know much about Kazakhstan. I did a small amount of research just now. Enough to ask a few potentially "sensible" questions. Strike any of my suggestions down if they aren't in line with what happens there or your view for the scenario.

 

I am assuming that most of the KTZ's railways were already built in 1991 at the start of the scenario. Were you thinking to have pre-built track for this? (Think Poland from PopTop).

 

I read that private companies can pay a fee to run on KTZ's track. Are you planning to have the player in charge of KTZ or another company? Is their a company that hauls passengers? Did you want to make this mainly about hauling passengers?

 

Have you thought about which engines to use for the map? I, personally, like scenarios with good engine selection and events to make those engines even more meaningful to strategy. I don't care if a North American engine such as the GP-7 is used to represent a local engine. What I dis-like is an open selection of locos especially of engines such as the Trans-Euro, Class 103, or Deltic which I can't imagine being used in a place like Kazakhstan.

Sorry for the late reply. I don't think the scenario should start with track already being built. Although in real-life all tracks have been placed at around 1880 to 1920, it's more fun for the player to lay the track themselves, because it's an enormous country.

 

The following engines would fit perfectly in the scenario!

F3 (A&B) 

GP7

VL80T of course

FP45

Class 6E

E60CP

Class 132

Brenner E412

 

I want the scenario to be mainly focusing on passenger transport. But please, go ahead and throw some ideas from yourself, you are the one who is working on the scenario, right?

 

I have also edited the map slightly, I indeed totally forgot to work out the rivers completely.

 

Tell me if you want more information, or if you have any suggestions.

Bas

Kazakhstan.zip

[Gwizz]

I've been a care giver for my wife so she shared what she has with me. 

I'm better now but she still has a ways to go be be well.

 

 

I was wondering if the Russian oil pipe line could be an event?  When was the pipeline built?

The RR could start between wars and loose business after the pipeline went into operation.

The war years would affect the RR as well. Destroyed track and stations could be events.

 

A 100 year map, with the railroad under construction for the first 40 years, is a bit long. 

Some players like long maps but many don't.

 

To be historically correct we would almost need to stay within the first 40 years. 

 

If we compress time and history to around a 10 year period.   I believe a shorter map would be much easier to build. 

  

Otherwise there is not a lot to build the map on within a 100 year period.

 

Cargos:   oil, diesel, food, goods, coal, iron, steel plus misc cargo where they fit. 

 

Passengers and Mail would be easy to script.

 

 

My thinking is this is your map and we are willing to help. :)

[MaglevForever]

Bas, I can also help out as I am able. Gwizz is more experienced at scripting than me, and, of course, I want this to be your map with your ideas. What makes a scenario good is the story-line behind it, and the way that the creator makes a path to win it. I would say to keep this simple, yet interesting.

 

That's fine that you want to focus on passengers, but there needs to be a way to keep the player occupied once he connects all the cities he can. Otherwise, it will become just a waiting game to hit x number of passengers and the player will get bored. Passengers build up over time, and we need to work out some things to occupy the player in the mean time.

 

Another thing to consider with this is whether to allow the player to build the Hotel, Restaurant, or Tavern. Did you know that the Hotel produces 2 loads of passengers every year? That can have a significant impact on passenger generation on the map.

 

Speed goals aren't always a good thing, but given a focus on passengers it might be something to consider. Maybe give the company a bonus if the player manages to haul a certain number of loads of passengers above a certain speed in one year. For example: If over 20 loads of passengers are hauled with a yearly average express speed of say 60mph the player would receive a 400k bonus at year's end. There is a potential for multiple bonuses varying the number of loads needed and the speed required. This could be incremental for example: 200k for >10 loads above 50mph, 400k for >20 loads above 60mph, 800k for >40 loads above 70mph. Would need testing to fine tune the numbers to make it both fun and challenging. Could also have it linked to loco availability, based on the speeds of the highest currently available loco. If you can buy the Brenner, the required speed could be higher with a larger bonus than if a player is using the Class 132 for example. Maybe you two have an even better idea of what the reward could be. It doesn't necessarily need to be cash.

 

Gwizz, I am sorry to hear you were sick. Best wishes for you and your wife!

 

The pipeline idea sounds good.

 

I don't think the intention was to make this a long map. Bas was simply pointing out that in real life most of the rails in Kazakhstan were laid in the years between 1880 and 1920, not suggesting that the scenario start then. I am totally happy with a 1991-2011 time period and the player building all rails from scratch. While not exactly realistic, this is good for a game-play compromise. Also, I agree making a map with pre-built tracks would be more difficult to make interesting.

[Bas]

Bas, I can also help out as I am able. Gwizz is more experienced at scripting than me, and, of course, I want this to be your map with your ideas. What makes a scenario good is the story-line behind it, and the way that the creator makes a path to win it. I would say to keep this simple, yet interesting.

 

That's fine that you want to focus on passengers, but there needs to be a way to keep the player occupied once he connects all the cities he can. Otherwise, it will become just a waiting game to hit x number of passengers and the player will get bored. Passengers build up over time, and we need to work out some things to occupy the player in the mean time.

 

Another thing to consider with this is whether to allow the player to build the Hotel, Restaurant, or Tavern. Did you know that the Hotel produces 2 loads of passengers every year? That can have a significant impact on passenger generation on the map.

 

Speed goals aren't always a good thing, but given a focus on passengers it might be something to consider. Maybe give the company a bonus if the player manages to haul a certain number of loads of passengers above a certain speed in one year. For example: If over 20 loads of passengers are hauled with a yearly average express speed of say 60mph the player would receive a 400k bonus at year's end. There is a potential for multiple bonuses varying the number of loads needed and the speed required. This could be incremental for example: 200k for >10 loads above 50mph, 400k for >20 loads above 60mph, 800k for >40 loads above 70mph. Would need testing to fine tune the numbers to make it both fun and challenging. Could also have it linked to loco availability, based on the speeds of the highest currently available loco. If you can buy the Brenner, the required speed could be higher with a larger bonus than if a player is using the Class 132 for example. Maybe you two have an even better idea of what the reward could be. It doesn't necessarily need to be cash.

 

Gwizz, I am sorry to hear you were sick. Best wishes for you and your wife!

 

The pipeline idea sounds good.

 

I don't think the intention was to make this a long map. Bas was simply pointing out that in real life most of the rails in Kazakhstan were laid in the years between 1880 and 1920, not suggesting that the scenario start then. I am totally happy with a 1991-2011 time period and the player building all rails from scratch. While not exactly realistic, this is good for a game-play compromise. Also, I agree making a map with pre-built tracks would be more difficult to make interesting.

Lots of good ideas there. The hotel, tavern and restaurant should be disabled. There also has to be a minimum speed limit to make everything more difficult, and there are no rewards given for that. I think it's a good idea to make the scenario about making and maintaining a high-quality passenger transport ''system''. Like messages about that you can choose:

- to afford new passenger wagons which will increase the amount of passenger revenue by let's say 5%, but will also increase maintenance costs by 10% OR

- to not afford new passenger wagons which will decrease the average speed of all trains (or something similar)

 

We could also do that the players rail company can donate money to a certain locomotive producer, like General Electric or Siemens for let's say 2,000K. The player will receive a message that says they will get a new modern locomotive in the next 2 years as a thank you for the donation. Once those 2 years are over, the player will get the Brenner E412 or a similar modern and fast locomotive :)

 

I personally believe this is interesting to make a scenario of. Once again, if you have your own ideas, please let me/us know.

 

And for Gwizz, I'm sorry to hear you're sick, too. I hope you and your wife get better soon :)

Bas

[Gwizz]

Information for later.             When we were at the doctors today, I read a story in "The Economist"

it had some information on the gas pipelines from Russia. 

 

The pipeline into Ukraine and on to Europe uses the Soyuz connection in Russia.

The same connection is used for the pipelines into Kazakhstan from Russia and on to Uzbekistan and

on to Turkmenistan on the Caspian Sea.

 

An argument between Russia and Ukraine caused Russia to shut down the pipeline for 2 weeks in 2009.

because a shut down is possible much of Europe and the Ukarine have been stock piling oil and gas.  

Russia values it's pipe line and could go to war to protect it. 

 

Ukaraine uses a lot of oil and gas.  It is late on over a billion dollars in payment debt. to Russia.

The same pipline goes on to Europe.  So it is not easy to shut down without reducing Russian cash flow from Europe.

 

 

 

THere is a lot more information that you may not even need.  But, It does make for a good ending event. 

You could even predict and write a future event.

 

 

 

To start:

 

Now is a good time to write the complete story line with dates etc.  (What happens when, The events)

 

Passenger traffic. starting dates.  which locos to use first or all of them at the same time etc.

 

List events in order with a lot of space between events (6 to 10 empty lines) so you can later add more events and make easy changes.

 

Writing these out in a list on paper is faster then writing them directly into the map,  Adding them to the map will come later.

 

Example:   list dates when passenger traffic changes up or down.  up 10%,  down 25%,  up 50%.

Remember a 50% increase of two passenger per year = 3 total passenger per year at each station.

100% increase of 2 passengers per year will give you  4 passengers per year at each station. 

 

Inbetween passenger changes add reason for change. 

(A simple dialog on paper, longer and more exact when added to the map in the editor)

[Gwizz]

I took a look at your map.  I'm going to call it as it is.  Don't be upset with me.

 

Your rivers need some work.  You can make them all flow in the correct direction.

 

I normally add the hills first and then the rivers but not always.  If you like I will work on the hills and rivers for you. 

 

I think I still have a topo map of the area.

 

I didn't see Russia listed and it would help to make counties in caps and cities in small letters.  

 

Some cities are too close together.  One large station can cover 3 or more cities. 

 

To keep the cities,  I'll some times make a lot of very small cities close together. 

 

I'm not too sure on how to make this into a passenger map yet and still keep player interest. 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, for a good map, we still need a story line.   I have some dates for pipe line construction.

 

I think I'll look up industry and farming production and add What you wrote about above and put it down on paper.

 

There should be some history on the net about railroads.  I may have some books and of course the two wars will add some interest. 

 

And the early years should be interesting as well.  There was some movies made about different people who lived in that early peroid.

 

I have a set of old 1926 history books There is a lot of ground to cover.  Do you want to include the train rides to death ordered by

 

Germany and Russia?  Russia hauled a lot of food away from people who starved to death for lack of food. 

[MaglevForever]

Gwizz, please don't get confused about the start date. The most sensible start date for a map named Kazakhstan is 1991. That's when Kazakhstan became a country. My question was about whether Bas was considering using pre-built track with that start date. You are absolutely right that long scenarios are no fun and take lots of work. I wouldn't want to see this as a long (>30 years) scenario.