Interstellar travel before the melange

[MrFlibble]

The following quote for the Dune Appendix suggest that foldspace was possible without a guild navigator.

To me, at least, somehow it does not :P Even with the most liberal of interpretations, frigates were not quipped with Holzman generators - it's Heighliners that were capable of foldspace travel.

[SandChigger]

The following quote for the Dune Appendix suggest that foldspace was possible without a guild navigator.

IIRC, in the Legends of Dune books the ancestors of the fremen arrive on Dune by hijacking a frigate.

Oh hell, arnoldo, what moronic crap are you trying to pull now? ::)

Of course it's possible to travel through foldspace without a guild navigator. Who the hell suggested otherwise? IT IS NOT THE NAVIGATOR THAT EFFECTS THE JOURNEY THROUGH SOME MYSTICAL HOOJOO MOJO WHIMWHAM. It's the bleeding Holtzman engines. The Navigator NAVIGATES and USING HIS PRESCIENCE determines if the course will result in a safe arrival.

And I for one couldn't give a flying rectum-seeking piranha mite what it says in the crapulent Legends FANFICTION. Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert apparently don't know Dune from their own feces; that's why they keep spreading the latter across the pages of books with the former mistakenly on the cover.

You're a tool. But I recognize and respect your basic humanity. Buried deeply in there somewhere though it may be. >:(

[SandChigger]

Hey, arnoldo, I did a little slumming over on the DumbNovels forum today and saw that thread where you first posted that Abu Zide reference. Made about as much sense there as it did here, but now at least the overall picture is clearer...

I'm sorry, but have you perhaps experienced a major cerebrovascular event recently? :'(

[arnoldo]

To me, at least, somehow it does not :P Even with the most liberal of interpretations, frigates were not quipped with Holzman generators - it's Heighliners that were capable of foldspace travel.

In the Machine Crusade it was a prototype ship equipped with a  holtzman engine and navigational computers which was used by the buddislamics to escape Potrin and arrive on Arrakis.  Before the guild's monopoly on space travel it's possible that computers were used to guide foldships.  After the Butlerian Jihad guild navigators replaced these navigational computers.

[MrFlibble]

In the Machine Crusade it was a prototype ship equipped with a  holtzman engine and navigational computers which was used by the buddislamics to escape Potrin and arrive on Arrakis.  Before the guild's monopoly on space travel it's possible that computers were used to guide foldships.  After the Butlerian Jihad guild navigators replaced these navigational computers.

Regardless of the fact that I don't give a farthing about what is stated in The Machine Crusade or any other book by BH/KJA, your speculation here does not follow from the passage you quoted earlier. The story of Abu Zide seems to be about a mystic experience, not foldspace travel.

[SandChigger]

And the planet's name is Poritrin. ::)

[MrFlibble]

Guess that was mixed up with Partin the Bashar's aide ;D

[SandChigger]

LOL. You mean Patrin? :D

Or Dolly Partin? :O

[MrFlibble]

Aw, that was just a typo :P (I was probably thinking "party" while typing that... It's good to have a party... with the Party, right, Edric? ;) :D)

[arnoldo]

. . . But which was the way of interstellar travel before the melange was discovered?

Since Arrakis is the only place of the Universe that has melange deposits, melange couldn't be known before its colonization.

Maybe they used something else besides melange. . .

. . .     And he thought then about the Guild -- the force that had specialized for so

long that it had become a parasite, unable to exist independently of the life

upon which it fed. They had never dared grasp the sword . . . and now they could

not grasp it. They might have taken Arrakis when they realized the error of

specializing on the melange awareness-spectrum narcotic for their navigators.

. . . Just like the Bene Gesserit used different poisions before using the Water of Life to gain other memory.

Edit:  In a deleted scene it's suggested that the Guild may've had competition for interstellar travel.

Hasn't anyone ever tried to compete with them? Paul asked.

"Many times," the Duke said. "Competing ships never come back, never arrive anywhere.""

"The Guild destroys them!"

"Probably.  Then again , perhaps not.  And the Guild does provide general transportation services at a reasonable price.  It's only when you get into the special services that the cost goes up."

"They just destroy anoyone who tries to compete with them, Paul said.

The Duke frowned.  "What would you do if a rival House set up next door to you and started competing for your world-openly, no hold barred?"

"But the Convention..."

"Hand the Convention! What would you do?"

"I'd throw every thing I had against them."

"You'd destroy them."

[SandChigger]

That's right, run back to the OP, and hide in the past. :D

[arnoldo]

No comments on reply #59 ???

[SandChigger]

You mean the comment you just edited?

Nope.

[MrFlibble]

No comments on reply #59 ???

No wonder Frank deleted that scene. It doesn't add anything significant to the story; on the contrary, it establishes some petty struggle between the Guild and its possible rivals, while in the final version the Guild is depicted as an almost omnipotent force.

And unless you wish to elaborate on why you brought this up, I can't figure out what this quote is supposed to add to the discussion ???

[SandChigger]

And unless you wish to elaborate on why you brought this up, I can't figure out what this quote is supposed to add to the discussion ???

Welcome to the wonderful world of arnoldo! It's his M.O. He just throws stuff out and you're supposed to figure out the connections and what it is he wants to say. ;)

[arnoldo]

No wonder Frank deleted that scene. It doesn't add anything significant to the story; on the contrary, it establishes some petty struggle between the Guild and its possible rivals, while in the final version the Guild is depicted as an almost omnipotent force.

And unless you wish to elaborate on why you brought this up, I can't figure out what this quote is supposed to add to the discussion ???

The deleted scene below. . .

Hasn't anyone ever tried to compete with them? Paul asked.

"Many times," the Duke said. "Competing ships never come back, never arrive anywhere.""

"The Guild destroys them!"

"Probably.  Then again , perhaps not.  And the Guild does provide general transportation services at a reasonable price.  It's only when you get into the special services that the cost goes up."

"They just destroy anyone who tries to compete with them, Paul said.

The Duke frowned.  "What would you do if a rival House set up next door to you and started competing for your world-openly, no hold barred?"

"But the Convention..."

"Hand the Convention! What would you do?"

"I'd throw every thing I had against them."

"You'd destroy them."

. . . may've been deleted due to editorial reasons.  IIRC, the editor requested FH to shorten his writings due to Dune originally being published in a magazine rather than a book format.  The scene obviously relates to the possibility that the guild had to fight to maintain a monopoly on interstellar space travel sometime in it's history.

[MrFlibble]

The scene obviously relates to the possibility that the guild had to fight to maintain a monopoly on interstellar space travel sometime in it's history.

Does Captain Obvious also acknowledge that whatever the actual reason for deleting this scene, surely Frank did not consider it all that important if he thought it possible to omit it entirely, and never mention anything related to the Guild's competitors in the book again?

And besides, how does this all help clarify the details of interstellar travel before the discovery of spice melange?

[arnoldo]

And besides, how does this all help clarify the details of interstellar travel before the discovery of spice melange?

I already provided a quote from a scene FH *didn't delete* for editorial or other reasons back in reply #59.  However, I'll repost it again.

Maybe they used something else besides melange. . .

. . .    And he thought then about the Guild -- the force that had specialized for so

long that it had become a parasite, unable to exist independently of the life

upon which it fed. They had never dared grasp the sword . . . and now they could

not grasp it. They might have taken Arrakis when they realized the error of

specializing on the melange awareness-spectrum narcotic for their navigators.

. . . Just like the Bene Gesserit used different poisons before using the Water of Life to gain other memory.

[MrFlibble]

I already provided a quote from a scene FH *didn't delete* for editorial or other reasons back in reply #59.  However, I'll repost it again.

Maybe they used something else besides melange. . .

. . . Just like the Bene Gesserit used different poisons before using the Water of Life to gain other memory.

Okay... so what's with the Guild's competitors from that deleted scene you posted? Did you mean that perhaps they used alternatives to spice melange to power their navigators/steersmen?

[arnoldo]

Okay... so what's with the Guild's competitors from that deleted scene you posted? Did you mean that perhaps they used alternatives to spice melange to power their navigators/steersmen?

FH wrote that after the Butlerian Jihad, "The Spacing Guild was beginning to build its monopoly over all interstellar travel. . . "  The deleted scene suggest that competitors to the Guild were destroyed however it's unknown whether they were using alternatives to spice melange.  The quote by FH that the Guild "realized the error of specializing in the melange awarness spectrum narcotic" does suggest the Guild initially may've been using alternatives to spice melange.

[MrFlibble]

To be honest, I did not get your point. First off, the quote about Guild's specialization on melange you keep referring to had been brought up before, right in this thread:

They might have taken Arrakis when they realized the error of specializing on the melange awareness-spectrum narcotic for their navigators.

Now I can't be sure about this, but it could be interpreted in the way that the spice was, indeed, only one of the several possible amplifying drugs that could heighten the Navigators' prescient abilities.

Secondly, I still don't understand if you suggest any connection between the possibility of non-melange prescience amplifiers ("awareness spectrum narcotics") and the Guild's competitors. And if you do, I have no idea what it could be ???

[arnoldo]

To be honest, I did not get your point. First off, the quote about Guild's specialization on melange you keep referring to had been brought up before, right in this thread:Now I can't be sure about this, but it could be interpreted in the way that the spice was, indeed, only one of the several possible amplifying drugs that could heighten the Navigators' prescient abilities.

Secondly, I still don't understand if you suggest any connection between the possibility of non-melange prescience amplifiers ("awareness spectrum narcotics") and the Guild's competitors. And if you do, I have no idea what it could be ???

Like many things in FH writings he left many things open up to each readers interpretation.  In the deleted scene he didn't write something along the lines that . . ."and the competitors realized the error of the Guild specializing in spice and decided to use the earlier awarness-spectrum narcotics the Guild had abandoned using." Instead FH merely mentioned the possibility that the Guild had competitors and it's up to the reader to fill in the details. 

[MrFlibble]

OK, thanks for clarifying your point.