The Great Debate

[garth]

Which production of DUNE did you prefer?

Polls: The official sci-fi poll has David Lynch ahead by roughly 20% over John Harrison's work.

The fed2k poll has 70 people thinking it was "excellent" and 14 saying it was "poor"

Be sure to give reasons!

[exatreide]

I Perfered the mini series.

1. Its easier to follow for people who never read the books.

2. The lighting is better, in the fist one you could barly see a thing.

3. special effects.

But is was no great

[garth]

I agree, but I'd also like to add that the Miniseries was virtually more faithful to the Book in every respect than the Lynch film.

Take the desert ambushes for example, the fremen would appear out of no where and kill the Harkonnens and this is even described in the Book. The fremen would use knives and the Sardaukar hunted the fremen with lasguns. The combat was most certainly a cut above Lynch's.

My personal favorite scene was when the Sardaukar raided the sietch where Leto was being kept, and took Alia prisoner. This particular instance did a superb job of portraying the fremen fanaticism to protect the tribe and Muad'Dib's relatives.

[exatreide]

Another bad thing about lync's version is that its to complex. wene i forst seen it. i had not read dune yet i did not get any of it. But wene my father who never read dune saw the mini series he new exactly what was going on. One other thing i liked about the mini series is that it chronicals paul's chang from kid to msssiah.

[garth]

Hmmmmm this isn't much of a debate......lol I guess no one checks out this forum anymore.

Yeh, I thought the mini was easier to follow also, if I had to break it down into parts:

I think that the first part of the miniseries was about the same as far as quality and faithfulness for the book to the Lynch movie. The second part and third parts of the MS completely blew Lynch's out of the water, especially the third.

[Guest CountryGirl]

Yup. The mini is definitely better than the film. No debate I guess, huh? Sorry there. Maybe you should try to rephrase your topic.

[ordos45]

definitely the mini series

[garth]

I hope you guys all voted at the scifi.com/dune site, the miniseries is still behind by a significant margin.

[quoudam72]

I liked the movie version (Lynch) even though it was 1. complex 2. dark 3.not faithful to the book. The introduction of the use of sound (sonics) was brilliant if you take something away from a series give something back (and make it interesting). How could have Lynch crammed all of Dune (the first book) into 2-HRS of movie (maybe with a few rewrites it would have been different). The mini-series is 3x that running time (Houston I think we have that problem corrected) and with a whole new vision of the Dune universe Lynch look vs. the mini-series look. I know there are those who despise the Lynch version (and so be it) because it was unfaithful to the book, it was complex, it was dark; but atleast he did not butcher it just a little cosmetic surgery (could you take a little off the top and sides please). With that said "It's time for shield practice"

Emperor we come for YOU! LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!

[garth]

I think the whole point of the miniseries was to make a production faithful to the Book. It succeeded over Lynch by your own admission, I don't think justifying it by "Oh he had too little time" or "They didn't have decent effects back then" is gonna cut it when you get down to the points:

1.) Faithfullness to the Book

2.) Easy enough for newcomers to follow

3.) Entertaining

[quoudam72]

I have admitted to nothing Shaddam. As far as your justifacations go I did not say anything about the FX in the movie,nor did I say 2HRS-35MINS was not enough time. The "thing" as you call the Lynch production has a dark beauty that you might not understand. The unfaithfulness that you speak of is very minor not really damaging to the masterpiece as a whole added just a little spice. Some of what was not in the the movie was not central to the story of Maud'Dib you get to see that in a longer production (mini-series) the book is always better than the movie hands down. The great debate is fi you liked the movie or the mini-series I chose the movie, but I DO NOT HATE THE MINI-SERIES and it's just a matter of choice.

"What do you despise? By this are you truly known."

from "Manual of Muad'Dib" by Princess Irulan

[garth]

"I liked the movie version (Lynch) even though it was 1. complex 2. dark 3.not faithful to the book."

Sounds like an admission it wasn't faithful to me.

I didn't mean for those quotes to come from you specifically, they are generalizations of the whines I hear about the miniseries but anyways:

"How could have Lynch crammed all of Dune (the first book) into 2-HRS of movie (maybe with a few rewrites it would have been different)."

Nothing about length....?

"The unfaithfulness that you speak of is very minor not really damaging to the masterpiece as a whole added just a little spice."

I would hardly call unfaithfullness to the book upon which the movie was based "added spice" or "minor". Take the combat for instance, how come the Fremen never used their crysknives in combat in the movie? Was their martial abilities not central to the story, a native population hardened by years of opression and harsh climate? A force to rival the Imperial Sardaukar?

"The "thing" as you call the Lynch production has a dark beauty that you might not understand."

First of all I never called it a "thing" in this topic. I am examining the facts and drawing a logical conclusion based on those facts. Second, maybe it would've been smarter for Lynch to make it a "dark beauty" while still keeping some light on the show.....half the time I couldn't see what was going on in the Sietches, much less the final battle.

[quoudam72]

Shaddam now we are getting somewhere. You mentioned the Fremen's knives to anyone else it is just another knife (without the knowledge that it is in fact a tooth from the sandworms of Dune). Showing them using that (the knives) against the Shadukar in battle and noting else is really in essence bringing a knife to a gun fight (Shadukar have guns). Listen with the introduction of the sonics you make it more interesting (trying to defind my points here I know we weren't talking about this). The sonics bring out the Mystics of the Fremen strikes fear in the Imperial Shadukar like never before yes true rivals. In light of all that is going on in the Dune book (the first one) you would have to omit a few things to make it marketable. Shaddam you and I are hardcore Dune fans no doubt about that. Maud'Dib is a prophet to the Fremen and I think that is what Lynch went for his rise to power on Dune. LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!

[garth]

If you remember from the original book, Duncan Idaho planted a shield in the open desert to cause a subatomic reaction when Harkonnen/Sardaukar lasgun beams hit the shield and said something to the point of "That should teach them to use lasguns against us".

"They threw themselves into combat. And it was man to man on the plain of Arrakeen......"

~p.465 paperback "Dune"

From this quote of the book you can see that Duncan taught the Sardaukar not to use lasguns in the desert, and in fact they didn't in the final battle: "And it was man to man on the plain of Arrakeen". This is not to say the miniseries is without flaws in the combat, it's just closer to the book than Lynch's version, no matter which way you look at it.

What Lynch did was oversimplify the book to make it more appealing to large groups of people who probably don't care one way or the other.

"The sonics bring out the Mystics of the Fremen strikes fear in the Imperial Shadukar like never before yes true rivals."

I think you mean the Weirding modules, so what you're saying is an Atreides invention brings out the "mysticism" of the fremen better than a carved knife from the tooth of Shai-Hulud?!

"In light of all that is going on in the Dune book (the first one) you would have to omit a few things to make it marketable."

Lynch did not omit "a few things" he completely overlooked the use of shields on Dune, which were used very foolishly by the Harkonnens and Sardaukar but mostly around the Shield Wall. Everyone was fighting with machine guns, which again was inaccurate to the point shields make projectiles nearly useless. Lynch oversimplified the military themes behind Dune, and even altogether omitting characters, to the point of it being Star Wars on a desert planet.

"Maud'Dib is a prophet to the Fremen and I think that is what Lynch went for his rise to power on Dune."

Again, the miniseries portrays this theme greater than Lynch's. The Baron's conversation with Shaddam IV is particularly revealing about how the "offworlders" thought about the Fremen (and it was straight from the book I might add). Lynch attempted to follow through with this theme, and partially succeeded, however the miniseries once again overshadows his work.

[quoudam72]

"It's about time you got into the mood."

NO, I'm not saying that an Atreides invention has more "mysticism" than the tooth of Shai-Hulud. Face it Shaddam somethings in the book take too long to explain to the movie going audience without it being a lecture. If you do all of this explaining it would have not been "Dune the movie" it would have been "Dune - a visual lesson on how to fight on a planet that you will never go to because it really doesn't exist." Shaddam in all of your knowledge of the Dune series you are really being unreasonable.

[garth]

Stilgar explained the meaning of the Crysknife in ONE SENTENCE right before before Paul battles Jamis and is given the knife.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how easily things can be explained in Dune with very brief remarks.

In the scene where Paul, Leto, and Dr. Kynes meet for the first time Paul asks why they dont shield the harvesters, and Kynes answers because they drive worms into a killing frenzy. Theres the explanation right there! Not hard at all! What is so unreasonable about asking for explanation that Lynch deserves to give to the fans of Dune? Harrison did a superb job of this!

[quoudam72]

"Keep the mind on the knife and not on the hand that holds it,the knife is more dangerous than the hand and the knife can be in either hand."

"The good knife fighter thinks on point and blade and shearing-guard simultaneously. The point can also cut;the blade can also stab;the shearing-guard can trap your opponent's blade."

Stilgar did not explain anything about the crysknife to Paul before his fight with Jamis (unfaithful to the book sound familiar?).

Jessica saw the girl-child Chani helping Paul, saw her press a crysknife handle into his palm, saw him heft it, testing the weight and balance. And it came to Jessica that Paul had trained in prana and bindu, the nerve and the fiber--that he had been taught fighting in a deadly school, his teachers men like Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck, men who were legends in their own lifetimes. The boy knew the devious ways of the Bene Gesserit and he looked supple and confident...........She looked up,saw Stilgar WATCHING her.

DUNE (Book Two MUAD'DIB) page 301

YA HYA CHOUHADA!

[garth]

No one is saying the miniseries was perfectly faithful to the book, all I'm saying is that it is far more faithful than the Lynch movie:

1.) Where did Count Fenring disappear to?

2.) Why didnt Irulan marry Paul in the end?

3.) Why was Shaddam IV said to be over 200 years old?

4.) Why was Reverend Mother Mohiam bald when she was described as having hair like matted spiderwebs?

5.) Why didn't Feyd make an assasination attempt on the Baron?

6.) Why did the Emperor have Rabban killed? That never happened in the book.

7.) Where did the weirding modules come from?

8.) Why was everyone using projectile guns? That certainly wasnt from the book.

9.) Where in the book was Thufir forced to milk a cat to keep from dieing from the latent poison?

10.) Why was there absolutely no use of shields on the Emperor's ship nor the Sardaukar?

11.) What happened to Paul's child Leto? Did he mysteriously disappear like Fenring......

12.) Please explain to me how Paul made it rain on Arrakis in the movie, that was most certainly NEVER in the book.

13.) Why were the Sardaukar running around in garbage bags all covered up and breathing green gas when they are clearly described of having typical blond hair and chiseled features with black and gray uniforms?

14.) Why was the Emperor meeting with a Guild navigator even though the Guild never permitted ANYONE from seeing them?

15.) Where did the Harkonnen heart plugs come from?

16.) Why were the Sardaukar not in Harkonnen livery in the Harkonnen invasion of Arrakis? Gee the Emperor must not care about the Landsraad discovering his secret dealings....

The list GOES ON AND ON. All of these points FAR outweigh those inconsistencies which are in the miniseries, no one is saying it was perfect, but the Lynch movie completely degraded the intricacy that is DUNE.

[quoudam72]

No one is saying the miniseries was perfectly faithful to the book, all I'm saying is that it is far more faithful than the Lynch movie:

1.) Where did Count Fenring disappear to? (Count who? Just kidding)

2.) Why didnt Irulan marry Paul in the end? (It would have been a cat-fight in the Sietch every night)

3.) Why was Shaddam IV said to be over 200 years old? (don't have a smart remark for that one)

4.) Why was Reverend Mother Mohiam bald when she was described as having hair like matted spiderwebs? (You saw the woman who played Mohiam the bald head was way sexier)

5.) Why didn't Feyd make an assasination attempt on the Baron? (Ever try to kill a PARANIOD floating fat man rtust me it's not easy)

6.) Why did the Emperor have Rabban killed? That never happened in the book. ( the Baron was going to do it anyway remember Rabban was a MUSCLE-MINDED TANK-BRAIN let's just make this simple off with his head)

7.) Where did the weirding modules come from? (First of all you need a IX Reasearch Building)

8.) Why was everyone using projectile guns? That certainly wasnt from the book. (If I can't use my sheild I am going to have really hurt somebody)

9.) Where in the book was Thufir forced to milk a cat to keep from dieing from the latent poison? (Lynch is a weirdo ever see BLUE VELET or TWIN PEAKS-TV SHOW classic weridness)

10.) Why was there absolutely no use of shields on the Emperor's ship nor the Sardaukar? (Garbage bags and sheilds just don't go together talk about lack of oxygen)

11.) What happened to Paul's child Leto? Did he mysteriously disappear like Fenring......

12.) Please explain to me how Paul made it rain on Arrakis in the movie, that was most certainly NEVER in the book. (Lynch and the God theme again)

13.) Why were the Sardaukar running around in garbage bags all covered up and breathing green gas when they are clearly described of having typical blond hair and chiseled features with black and gray uniforms? (Remmeber what happen when THESE TYPE OF PEOPLE got together LAST TIME)

14.) Why was the Emperor meeting with a Guild navigator even though the Guild never permitted ANYONE from seeing them? (If I can see into the future and throught space and time I can choose when I want to meet with YOU)

15.) Where did the Harkonnen heart plugs come from? (There is this little factory on Gedi Prime)

16.) Why were the Sardaukar not in Harkonnen livery in the Harkonnen invasion of Arrakis? Gee the Emperor must not care about the Landsraad discovering his secret dealings.... (You saw Sting in his thong-thong-thoooonnnggg Sardaukar would not be caught dead in something like that)

The list GOES ON AND ON. All of these points FAR outweigh those inconsistencies which are in the miniseries, no one is saying it was perfect, but the Lynch movie completely degraded the intricacy that is DUNE.

(Just say that you want your 3.50 back 1984 cost to see the movie)

"I despair of teaching you other ways. You have square thoughts which resist circles."

The Stolen Journals

Shaddam all of your points/views are taken into consideration. We both have our opinions. :)

YA HYA CHOUHADA!!

[garth]

I wasn't alive in 1984 :P

[quoudam72]

Shaddam have you noticed that we are the only two in here. We need another topic. You seem to have a good knowledge of the Dune series maybe we can put our energy into another topic.

[garth]

Huh? This is a debate about the miniseries.....I created this topic to debate it....I won't abandon it until there is no opposition.

[quoudam72]

Shaddam you had better start using voice or something cause I'm not going to change my mind about Harrison vs. Lynch.

[garth]

*uses voice*

Then use constructive evidence to explain why you prefer the Lynch movie.

*ends voice*

Or does blatent unfaithfulness to the book, poor lighting and visuals, oversimplification of the storyline, etc. etc. not matter anymore?

I think I'm witnessing the end of deductive reasoning on the forums :(

[quoudam72]

Shaddam this is what I have been talking about during this entire debate. You mention all these things about Lynch that you don't like poor lighting, visuals, not faithful to the story, missing characters, the list goes on and on. When you say visuals what do you really mean, the Sardaukar in the suits that they wore (superficial). As far as visuals go Lynch's version to me was what Dune looked like a desert world. And as far as rain on Arrakis what about the Hymn to Water. You just don't get it do you Dune was not going to be another STAR WARS they weren't ready for Dune yet the timing wasn't right. With the Dune chronicles in mind really simplfacation was for those who would not understand the story. And no matter what you say TIME was on Harrison's side. Dune needed what Harrison gave to it but I don't think that Lynch's version was a total waste as others have felt.

YA HYA CHOUHADA!!!