New Emperor Mod - Infantry Based

[JulesG]

I have looked at C&C3 SDK - realised I cant mod it (cant afford the 3D modelling tools) and dont know where to start with the units so......

Come back to Emperor.

I want to do something different: Get EBFD to work in campaign mode WITH NO VEHICLES only infantry. Sniper released an Infantry Only mod a long time ago in which he wished it to work with campaigns and that is now my goal.

Main Houses being thought of (after the EmperorWorm) : Corrino, Guild and Tleilaxu. Guild and Tleilaxu have fallen out and are fighting each other (EmpWorm killed in process). Atr, Hark and Ordos all heavily weakened leaving room for Corrino to march in.

I did consider Fremen as a main house but not happy with building choices.

Subhouses: Fremen, Hark, Atreides, Ix and Ordos.

Sides to have all infantry except for sandcrawlers (use with ADVCarryall) and for Guild Supertank = GuNIAB (ie HKDevastor),

Corrino supertank = Heavy Bomber (ie was ATSonicTank).

Tleilaxu supertank = Deviator Leech (ie was ORDeviator).

Ix may have a hover trike and hover missile apc otherwise all sub-houses to be infantry...

Plan is to increase worms and storms.

Any suggestions welcome...

[Aristeas]

I'm all for any infantry mod to this game...being the Dune purist that I am. Before I start I'd like to say that I wish I had the know how to do my own mods but I don't so I just tell other people how I think they should do theirs. :) 

Anyway, here’s my idea of the perfect Infantry Mod using the Houses you’ve chosen...and I saw your response to my post in the cotl thread so I know you've already started but I figure as long as I'm spouting off ideas I may as well do it for real.

Corrino... Mortars, Snipers

Special Unit: Sardaukar & Elite Sardaukar

Guild…….Mortars, Snipers, AA Troopers

Special Unit: Guild Maker

Tleilaxu...Mortars, Snipers, AA Troopers

Special Units:  Deviator Troopers (use the Ordos chem. Trooper graphic) Has the Deviator effect on troops but the effect is permanent. Deviator troopers should be very expensive…I’d say three times the amount of an elite Sardaukar at least.  Level 3 infantry are immune to this effect. 

I’m just not sure that it can be done. If not then I'd go with contaminators but I'd make them cheaper and shorten their build times...maybe a make them move a little faster.

Buildings:

House Corrino: Sardaukar Barracks, Hangar, Harkonnen Flame Turret, Atreides Machine Gun Turret

Guild: Ordos Barracks, Hangar, Ordos Popup Turret, Atreides Machine Gun Turret

Tleilaxu: Flesh Vat, Hangar, Ordos Chemical Turret, Harkonnen Machine Gun Turret

Hangars:

Corrino: Ornithoptors & Advanced Carryalls

Guild: Ornithoptors, Eye in the Sky

Tleilaxu:  Harkonnen Gunships and Defense Platforms

Subhouses:

Atreides.  Everyone already has snipers and kinjals aren't that useful in an infantry mod...even less so if everyone has mortar troops. But one could use the Atreides infantry as a counter for Sardaukar. Give them almost as much health as the Sards and the same firepower but let them keep their crappy range.  Adjust their cost accordingly. (I make this suggestion because of the part in the original Dune where it says that the Atreides had some infantry that were trained almost as well as the Sardaukar and the Sardaukar need some kind of counter)   

Fremen....just Feds.  Since everyone already has snipers I wouldn't bother with Fremen Warriors.

Ordos...chemical troopers, eye in the sky

Harkonnen...flame throwers. 

Ix...I hate to completely nix a subhouse but I don't see much of a place for Ix in an infantry mod. They only have mechs. I suppose they could have the suboids but they're use on the battlefield is limited.  The only thing I could see using suboids for is for a distraction or to cheaply bolster your forces for big attack.  Not enough of a reason for anyone to actually pick them as a subhouse when they can pick one that offers a much more useful unit.  By the time that you're plotting a huge rush of forces you'll probably have plenty of money to make a lot of real troops anyway. 

Of course, if you're planning on giving them a small mech, like the sand bikes or dust scouts, thats different.  But they should be expensive and have a longer build time.

Well...you asked for it. :D

[JulesG]

Thanks for the suggestions, lets look at them compared to what I was thinking and have already partially implemented...

Corrino... Mortars, Snipers

Special Unit: Sardaukar & Elite Sardaukar

Scout, light infantry,[light infantry], Engineer, Mortar, Sard, Elite, APC, Plasma Mortar, Fighter, Bomber

No sniper - Sard has longer range than other infantry anyway. the unit in [] means campaign replacement (for ATSniper unit) so campaign still works.

Guild

[Aristeas]

oops, i was taking scouts and engineers for granted...

I suggested that the houses have a lot of the same units is because I see it as the easiest way to balance the houses and I think it mirrors real warfare a bit more.  If you look at todays military, everyone has snipers, mortars, and regular old grunts.  But letting the Houses have their one special unit allows them to keep their own character. 

But I was sort of thinking in a box as it were.  I didn't think much about creating units...like the long range beam trooper for instance.

[JulesG]

Well of course you would take scouts and engineers for granted!

However when designing for campaign play the order of the units is critical for specific missions to work well - for example the ATR Heighliner mission (which I removed form COTL because it is so fussy both in units and in buildings) needs either a strong anti-infantry unit = ATSniper OR a weak infantry unit = HKLightInf and other missions need anti-infantry Tanks (trikes) or anti-tank tanks (HKAssaults) so I must line up the new units very carefully...or there wont be any balance in campaign play.

Thus I listed the order of the units as stored in the rules file for each side.

Thanks for your input - I am wondering about a sniper for the Tleilaxu, but then why would bother with a short range unit like a Deviator chemical trooper or contaminator if you can just spam snipers?

Perhaps the guild light infantry should be a weak sniper to balance the strong but short range flame trooper? I plan to keep the Hvy Infantry as I use the ATGeneral and his cape nicely matches the IMGenerals cape (Beam captain and Mortar General)...

[Aristeas]

I am wondering about a sniper for the Tleilaxu, but then why would you bother with a short range unit like a Deviator chemical trooper or contaminator if you can just spam snipers?

I would think that the Tleilaxu would still need a special unit of their own.  When I was thinking of the deviator trooper as the Tleilaxu special unit I was thinking of them as a way to convert the other Houses' special units to their own ends...a very Tleilaxuish thing to do. :)

But now that I'm really thinking about it this might not be such a good idea.  To force the Tleilaxu to depend on the other Houses for their more powerful units is putting them at a disadvantage...at least initially...until they can "steal" a lot of Sards and/or Makers from their enemies.  And if you can't make the effect permanent its a huge disadvantage.  Can you make the effect last longer than the duration of an average game?  But even then one has to consider my original idea that the deviator trooper be very expensive...this now seems like a bad idea insofar as balance is concerned.

I wanted the Tlielaxu to have snipers because I was thinking that since the contaminator or deviator troopers are short range they might have an inordinate amount of trouble getting close to snipers so it would be harder for the Tlielaxu to have snipers if they didn't already have their own.

On the other hand...if you don't give the Tleilaxu snipers but you do give them contaminators as opposed to deviator troops and you make them cheap enough with fast build times a player could make a huge swarm of them and might be able to overcome groups of strong snipers (with a great deal of loss of course...but thats why their cheap) 

Egads, I just read this post and it looks like I'm arguing with myself.  :O

[Nexa34]

What about the Gholas? You could have Tleilaxu be able to build Ghola copies of other houses' special units, or even introduce a sort of assassin ghola. Maybe something that could instantly kill infantry at point blank range, moves fast, and captures buildings like an engineer?

It would have no range, and would cost quite a bit.

And while I'm at it, I might also throw in my grain of salt for the buildings.

For the Tleilaxu buildings, it would be cool if you could make their construction yard look like a beating heart. Combining several Tleilax unit/building textures might work...

Oh, and gas turrets for Tleilaxu, if that's not already the plan. It just fits them perfectly.

Just take the Tleilaxu texture for their turret and give it the effect of the Ordos gas turret.

[JulesG]

Well I can tell you havent read much on the history of modding Emperor!

The xbf editor allows the slight movement of vertices and the deleting of some parts of existing frames but NOT the redrawing or adding of extra frames/vertices, so a beating heart is impossible. I have been trying to redo the fleshvat and found even when the xbf editor can change the shape of a frame the animation coding (unknown - never worked out) overrides the changes back to the original shape and structure!

The construction yard animation includes mcv and vice versa so you have to use one of the existing construction yard models if you want the transition to look ok. (Tried this with the AKINNODDINGDONKEY model - didnt work.)

As for gholas - you cannot "clone" units - you can do what the mission on Caladan did and just create tleilaxu equivalents to the enemy - but this could not be redefined "on-the-fly" So it would be just like having a sniper unit, mortar unit etc...

The only possible way to "clone/transform" is to use the ADVFremen unit that can transform into the Wormrider, it may be possible to do something with this and change into another defined unit - say sniper, though no other mod ever succeeded in getting the frem unit to change into another unit so probably impossible but I will test it out.

The Assassin - now that IS possible - an HK engineer model (with bag removed - already done this) can be given a powerful very short range weapon, be classed as engineer to capture buildings and have stealthwhenstill (full stealth possibly be too much). The speed could then be fast - which means it uncloaks (weakness) or you have to micro-manage small steps...

....just thought the very powerful short range weapon should be an instant hit DEVIATOR weapon - so very sneaky but can run away if too many enemy appear overwhelming the slow rate of fire of the gun!

I created an Ordos version of the gas turret that deviated units and infantry in COTL, and could do the same for the tleilaxu (I have built a machine gun post in the past using modified TL textures, so the gas turret would be easy.) However the visual balance of a popup turret with a tall turret (Living Turret) does not work well (tested with many different sides over the last four years of modding EBFD) it would be better to give the Living turret the deviator weapon with the green gas explosion, though instead of a missile it would be a tlblob or leech bullet xbf.

[Nexa34]

Yep, I don't mod for Emperor. Explains ^_^

However, what I meant by "clone" was not an in-game effect. I meant it would give an excuse for the Tleilaxu to have certain units; i.e. you could build a unit called "Ghola" that would give you one of the other 2 races' super units. Maybe even randomizing this could be a good idea, just to add variety. After all, Tleilaxu flesh vats have access to all sorts of DNA, and in the campaign (Ordos at least) you place ghola clones of Sardukar and Fremen. So maybe different ranks of Gholas as infantry; you could have a "Ghola Fremen warrior" or a "Ghola Sardukar captain"...

Don't know how to balance all of this, just clarifying the ideas I had...

Or another idea: create a tleilaxu mobile flesh vat; use the carrier tank graphic the Tleilaxu have in the final mission and the home mission when playing Ordos and give it the same effect as an ix projector that works on infantry only. Maybe also expand the length of time of the replicas significantly. The 1 shot 1 kill and touch kill the enemy gets on them would represent that the Tleilaxu are just cloning at random; the troops are being bred too quickly without the proper equipment using DNA samples directly from the battlefield, creating far inferior clones to normal. They would eventually die, and would be far, far weaker than the "originals" from sickness. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that an Atreides infantry unit can club them to death if they had the equivalent resilience of a baby. [On reflection this looks faaar too confusing for other players; I'm leaving it in the message in the vain hopes that it will inspire you XD]

Another idea, based on what you said about the worm; remember the dead worm the Tleilaxu took DNA samples from? How 'bout giving them a super unit with the same effect as a Fremen FED; they could then summon a Tleilaxu worm?

Another super unit option would be suicide infantry; very expensive and very slow, but cloaks, and when detonated creates the radioactive goo from a Death Hand missile... Would that be possible?

The Tleilaxu turret with the leech graphic that does the Ordos gas attack was what I had in mind; sorry if I'm confusing sometimes  ;D

[JulesG]

I like the idea of tleilaxu fremen unit, tl sard unit, etc it gives the player some fun, cant randomize though as each unit has to be defined in a rigid way in EBFD.

TLTransport and TLWalker units have ZERO weapon animation which means other than as an APC or as a BOMB they cannot be defined to do anything, the only unit that has the animation coding to respond to projector = true is the ixprojector, so no go there.

As to a weakening unit - setting a very high health and then using CanSelfRepair = -1 means that instead of the unit getting better after damage, health continually ebbs away. Could be used with good effect on a very damage resistant Contaminator that slowly dies and thus you must use quickly or lose and the weaker it is the easier to kill.

Might be possible to define a Tleilaxu Sandworm and use a "cloned ADVFremen" that can call such a unit - need to research that one.

Cloaked Bomb unit that leaves radioactive goo - yes that works (only with saboteur infantry unit) or any vehicle(ground or flying!). Of course the question is should it be radiactive goo or a big pool of deviator goo?

[Nexa34]

Okay, then I would suggest using the TLWalker and giving it the Death Hand radioactive goo as a BOMB mode. (there's already 2 units that deviate, I don't think they'd need more, and radioactive goo would be definitely TL style)

Oh course, that would need to cloak; it's very big so easy to detect anyways. As well, since it's slow and bulky compared to the Ixian infitrators, it should have a lot more health. You know, the "big lumbering thing you just can't seem to kill fast enough before it atomizes your conyard" idea. ;D

As for their super soldier, I now think the Tleilaxu worm would pose a problem; what if you aren't playing on an arakis map? Then you wouldn't have that ability  :O

So here's a new idea, based on what you said; a super-contaminator that dies over time, fast movement, and way faster attack animation. Basically, if it touches another infantry, they turn to a contaminator instantly. They would take a long time to build and would cost a lot.

Anyways, are there plans to create new maps for the mod as well? Some themed maps would be so much fun! You know, maps made for infantry and not mechs, with more/less cover, depending.

[Aristeas]

radiactive goo or a big pool of deviator goo?

I vote for the deviator goo.  Its more Tleilaxuish.

[JulesG]

Okay, then I would suggest using the TLWalker and giving it the Death Hand radioactive goo as a BOMB mode. (there's already 2 units that deviate, I don't think they'd need more, and radioactive goo would be definitely TL style)

Oh course, that would need to cloak; it's very big so easy to detect anyways. As well, since it's slow and bulky compared to the Ixian infitrators, it should have a lot more health. You know, the "big lumbering thing you just can't seem to kill fast enough before it atomizes your conyard" idea. ;D

As for their super soldier, I now think the Tleilaxu worm would pose a problem; what if you aren't playing on an arakis map? Then you wouldn't have that ability  :O

So here's a new idea, based on what you said; a super-contaminator that dies over time, fast movement, and way faster attack animation. Basically, if it touches another infantry, they turn to a contaminator instantly. They would take a long time to build and would cost a lot.

Anyways, are there plans to create new maps for the mod as well? Some themed maps would be so much fun! You know, maps made for infantry and not mechs, with more/less cover, depending.

OK - TLWalking bomb tried before but looks odd coming out of fleshVat, so may need to use another building either a variation on ORHanger (I have a TL texture version somewhere) or use the newly edited fleshvat where I have removed the moving ovipositor. It is not perfect as you can see in very close up that the unit walks through part of a wall under the front skin, I could try to get rid of it (but it will remove a whole box shape from the model and so I must fiddle with something else...)

It seems there is divided opinion on radioactive versus deviator goo so I will play around with balance before I make a final decision (months away at the moment!).

Fast ZERG like Contaminator - everyones dream, unfortunately an ex-Westwood employee said on this forum a few years ago now that they slowed the animation down as it was too deadly. He went on to say had anyone cracked the animation coding and found how to speed things up. He was NOT surprised when he was told that we had never cracked the xbf format enough to work out how the animation stuff worked. So a fast deadly unit is out.

However how about a slow superdeadly unit that is almost immune to infantry fire but slowly dies of its own contamination? If you basically cant kill it until it is almost dead, you would have to run away, as if it touches you your dead and now there is a new superdeadly unit near to your troops but now with full health - not nice!

I would love some themed user-made maps for non-campaign play but it is something i have never learnt to do, so my target is to get the mod to work consistently well in campaign mode.

[Nexa34]

Speaking goo vs. deviator, a little change in weapons type would be nice. Stealing other units is fun, but sometimes extra damage is better, for example against buildings, which the bomb would be designed to knock out. But definitely go for the most balanced. There's nothing as frustrating as a superbly designed mod that's sadly unbalanced.

About the superdeadly unit; it sounds almost too good. I know it's a super unit, extremely slow and expensive and all, but in an all-infantry game it seems it could take on an entire army; if you get attacked, just send one out; the enemy has to retreat all the way back to his base. If you're attacking, he has to stay behind flame turrets the entire time while you pound the turrets out of their range! So basically there's nothing he can do. If he tries to come out, and the supercontaminator touches even just one soldier (not a hard thing to do) then they now have 2 to kill. And could you imagine an assault led by an APC carrying 5 of those!  :O Maybe make touched enemies become regular contaminators? Then again, not sure how good the other superunits are; maybe this is to balance them out.

Maybe get a friend or someone else from here to make a few maps; nothing massive, even just 1. It would be a very refreshing thing to play with new units on a new map!

[Beonid]

I would tend to agree with Nexa34 on goo vs. deviator. We've seen plenty of units with a deviator weapon - now would be a good time to change. You could have a contaminating goo, or a radioactive goo, as mentioned before (I think), or even a acid goo.

On a different not, would it be possible to have a unit which you could "feed" with you own units to raise the veterancy level? If so, a tleilaxu superunit would be able to get "stronger" by sacrificing other infantry.

[JulesG]

OK - did some testing at the weekend.

Results:

Any unit can be set as Devastator = True and by hitting "D" explode. However unlike the DeathHand missile to then get a splat to appear requires additional fiddling but it does work.

Now setting the splat to radioactive or inkvine poisoning is easy. Setting it to act like a Tleilaxu contaminator works - but poorly. The units that get killed (instantly unless you set the damage more like that for leeching a tank) create a new splat and so on, but mostly the splat is just on top of the original splat so it doesnt really do much (non-contaminated buildings/units get no real damage due to way the leech bullets work) and obviously each generated splat would only work against the AI not a human enemy. Deviator splat works quite well but again Human enemy would just go round it.

The splat whether Acid or radioactive or inkvine (the maximum declared different splats I have ever got to work was three) would just mean different armour levels are affected in different ways, so logically best is to have a gasvine (greeny-black splat) that affects low armour units and superpoison gasvine (use std deathhand radioactive green splat) that attacks all units and buildings.

Following logic of lots of deviator units - I could dig up a TLworm (green) version of GuMaker (but without the electrical discharge) I made in past that would "voice" at infantry and the voice bullet could act as a contaminator so that the infantry turn into a new TLworm. That TLworm could also be an engineer to make things even more challenging for the Tleilaxu's enemy.

[Nexa34]

How about making the TLworm spit the radioactive goo? Leaving the big tleilaxu tank thing as an APC. TL would already have 2 solid deviator units anyways.

[JulesG]

;D

OK lets summarise our collective thinking on the Tleilaxu side:

Scout

Sardaukar Clone

ADVFremen Clone

Short-Range Deviator Engineer (stealthwhenstill)

Long-range Deviator Kindjal

Other clone unit - to be decided or set as campaign extra.

Then

Contaminator (Heavy unit if choose Walking Bomb)

Leech - with a spitting weapon either mortar-like or poison-splat depending on following choices.

APC - using TLTransport or TLWalker

Heavy Contaminator (more armour and health but slowly dies) or Walking Bomb with poison splat

TLWorm - if choose walking bomb then spits contaminator venom, otherwise poison splat

[Nexa34]

Here's what I came up with:

-Scout

-Sardaukar Clone

-ADVFremen Clone

-Short-range deviator Engineer (stealthwhenstill)

-Long-range deviator Kindjal

-Normal Contaminator (fast build and cheap)

-Heavy contaminator (extra armour and health, slowly dies)

-Leech

-APC

-TLWorm- spits poison splat (Leech attack graphic, Death Hand goo)

[Campaign extra clones]

Now, it looks like a very fun force to play with! :) A good balance between deviator,

goo damage (i.e. remains in play) and contaminators, plus normal attacks from the cloned units.

Only to clarify 1 thing; the Sardukar is the advanced one, right? Or else we've got an AA problem...

Could you post the other two faction's lists like that please? So that we might see how balanced the Tleilaxu list would be?

[Beonid]

What are we going to do for Tleilaxu aircraft? I don't suppose you would be able to use the top of the living turret as a base for an aircraft, would you? Other than that, no buildings come to mind

Here's my take on the unit list:

-Scout

-Sardaukar Clone

-ADVFremen Clone

-Short-range deviator Engineer (stealthwhenstill)

-Long-range deviator Kindjal

-Normal Contaminator (fast build and cheap)

-Heavy contaminator (extra armour and health, slowly dies)

-Leech - spits poison splat (Leech attack graphic, Death Hand goo)

-APC - using TLTransport (personally I think it looks more like a transport, strangely enough)

-TLWorm- spits "spice gas" (flamethrower attack graphic, leeches)

[Campaign extra clones]

[Aristeas]

All this talk of an infantry mod promted me to load up DukeLeto's Infantry Wars mod again and I have to say, I think any infantry mod would be better off without aircraft...or at least combat aircraft.  Instead of building up an army of 50 gazillion tanks players would just build 50 gazillion ornithoptors to take out bases with.  Its much more challenging with infantry.

Incidentally, I've noticed something else with Leto's mod.

I am playing the Atreides campaign with it.  The campaign gives players and the AI reinforcements and, as you well know, some of these are mech units.  One would think that this would throw off the whole infantry only thing but its actually a lot of fun.  Both you and the enemy get these reinforcements so it isn't a balance issue (other than the fact that you're playing the AI :D )

What makes it so interesting is the new role of mech units.  Because there are so few of them, mech units are relegated to bolstering base defense and infantry support roles.  Because you only have maybe 1, 2, or if you're lucky, 3 minotaurs you have to be very careful with them because you can't get any more, or rather, you don't know if the game will give you any more.  You might get a few sonic tanks. (which IMO can be as much of a pain as a help depending on how they're used) You might get a few mongeese. You might get some sand bikes.  If you want to keep them you have to really think about how and where you use them, how to keep them safe while still using them to good effect, and how to use them in tandem with your infantry. 

What I was wondering was this: Can a mod be made to send in random reinforcements including the odd mech like they do in the campaigns?  Can this be done for skirmish mode?  I know this is contrary to your original goal but I had to interject this.

Another thing I've noticed...in an infantry only mod...Harks suck badly. But this doesn't really apply here...I'm just sayin' :)

[Nexa34]

:'( Whoops, I made an error in my list; the heavy contaminator should read:

-Heavy contaminator (extra armour and health, walking bomb)

Srry for the confusion...

[JulesG]

8)

I have been thinking similar ideas:

1) All aircraft for 3 main house can not be built, only appear in campaign play (called by various missions). Question on TL aircraft - to fit with campaign play have to be ADP (not orni - get funny results of orni flying under ground!) Thus will use TLFlyer that fires. GuNIAP version that fires also available for Guild side. Corrino units already exist from COTL.

2) Only House Atreides (replacing Ix) would be able to build Orni - very long construction and very expensive.

3) Each Side to have option to acquire some units: a) through reinforcements (campaign play) b) starport ordering - only 4 units rather than 6 with longer reorder time (campaign plus skirmish). c) through crates (skirmish mode).

4) Now question is should the units be std CHOAM units available to all sides or each side get unique unit? If latter then I would move GuNIAB to such a unit. I think we can do max 2 units per side if different or 4-6 if common (or 1 unique and 3 common) max.

5) Reinforcements obviously increase with number of local neighbouring territories next to battle zone so the units should not be TOO strong or some missions will be unbalanced.

Oh - and they will draw WORMS like a bee to honey!

6) Sardaukar clone was to be std Sard - can have AA added if desired, but if no AA then that gives TL a weakness, though only slightly to APC drops as obviously as above few if any Ornis around.

I will review all three sides listing and work out separate number of extra possible units (I will use COTL as working example) but this could reduce if we increase number of splats.

On spice-weapon unfortunately flamethrower graphic does not transfer do to SFX header of Flame tank, turret and flamer including flame details and if you use the xbf editor to move SFX header from anything other than a simple ATADP (to TLFlyer, GuNIAP) you get lots of strange animation effects. (The new unit seems to like jumping in the air, doing head over heels, dying and then coming back to life every few seconds!).

I did use the Screech of the Hawk weapon and the recoil from the sonic weapon to make the TLworm look like it was "voicing" the enemy in a previous test version of COTL and it was a fun unit to use (effect like a longer range ADVFRemen). My temptation is to repeat this and give the Leech the splat weapon as otherwise its leech effect will be useless with only a few tanks around.

Contaminator that is also a walking bomb - very MEAN!  ;D ;)

OK - this is going to take a while to think through, but please in the meantime discuss your thought on possible units per side and balance as planned/implemented below:

Presently GUILD are:

//GUILD Infantry

Scout

Flamer

Sniper

Engineer

Heavy Flamer(campaign only). Flamers can burn out Contaminators (only real weapon that works)

Heavy Machine-Gun Infantry

Heavy Beam Trooper (uses ORAATrooper and is longer range anti-ifantry and anti-vehicle unit)

Sniper 3rd Veteran (Campaign Reinforcement)

Gu General (short beam plus sword)

GuMaker

NIABTank

//Corrino Infantry

Corrino Scout

Corrino Medium Infantry

Corrino Medium Infantry 3rd Veteran (Campaign reinforcement)

Corrino Engineer

Corrino Mortar

Corrino Sardaukar

Corrino Sardaukar 3rd Veteran (campaign only)

Corrino Laser ADV (swords can cut up contaminators, but means in range of contaminator...)

Corrino Laser ADV 3rd Veteran (campaign only)

Corrino Plasma Mortar 3rd Veteran (other unit that can burn out contaminators)

Corrino General (Super Bashar version of ADVSard)

[Aristeas]

On point #4...I'd choose the latter.  Doesn't make sense to have special units particular to a specific house buyable from CHOAM. I'd say that CHOAM could offer up their own units or "stock" units as it were.

[JulesG]

Thinking about the weak Hark infantry issue -Light Infantry, AATrooper, Flamer I assume?

Thus good reason why Guild need a sniper and GuMaker/GuNIAB to balance off weak units versus Corrino/TL

The TL should be OK with the balance we have all agreed on.

So have common CHOAM units (like I did in COTL) and perhaps change Superweapons to a unique house tank: GuNIAB + GuMegaGun (Palace), TL Walking Deviator (I have a TL Mongoose unit less lights etc)+ TLMegaSplatGun (Palace), that can be built from Factory when Palace is present and leave Corrino with the DeathHand SuperMissile (minus radioactive splat, but kills ConYard in one shot).