Carpe diem? Maybe that's a bad thing...

[GUNWOUNDS]

I thought God is Just? How can he be if he doesn't treat all humans in the same way?

Justice is not defined as "treating people the same way"

Thats the main problem with humanity.... we have the wrong definitions for what we think is absolute.

Justice means God generates X amount of righteous anger for X amount of violations... now how he manifests that X amount of righteous anger is up to him....if he decides that he wants to delay the sending of the messiah to make it super hard on our ancestors ... then that is how he decided to manifest his anger then...but dont forget that they got to live for like 900 years and God even spoke to them in public, and he sent angels to talk to them, and he had a temple that he dwelt in on EARTH for goodness sake.... our ancestors may not have had Jesus's grace... but one thing they did have was the knowledge that GOD DID EXIST.... and so if anybody decided to be disobedient then that was their stupdity.... so you cant say that he treated them unfairly.... he just treated them different and they had a completely different set of circumstances.

And it seems he has chosen to spare those people in the New Testament immediate destruction by using Jesus as a sacrifice.

[Acriku]

This has been creeping in my mind ever since we started this discussion, Gunwounds. Does what is defined as morally good come from God himself? If so, then saying God is good is meaningless. Do you agree? I think you do, from your post above. If he did create this morality, what makes it better than a morality that we can create? For instance, where is the perfection in not eating shellfish, and things that seem more beneficial to us like the Golden Rule are not found in the Old Testament (correct me if I'm wrong)? From what I know of the Bible, the Golden Rule (existing in other cultures long before, but besides the point) does nto creep up until Jesus comes into the picture. Why was it important for Jesus to mention it and not God himself?

Also, why is God reacting to what man did (Adam and Eve disobeying God) as if he didn't know this would happen? From what you describe in the post above, God is nothing more than a really powerful alien (from our perspective) messing with his experiment, with no idea what his experiment will do.

And I'd be cautious to declare God the moral elite with a track record far beyond our own (Noah's Ark is by far the most devastating of his feats). I can't comprehend a morally perfect being who would do such a thing to the very same people he created for simply not following his commands.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i did alot of editing all throughout my above post.. can you re-read my above post... thanks.

[GUNWOUNDS]

This has been creeping in my mind ever since we started this discussion, Gunwounds. Does what is defined as morally good come from God himself? If so, then saying God is good is meaningless. Do you agree? I think you do, from your post above. If he did create this morality, what makes it better than a morality that we can create? For instance, where is the perfection in not eating shellfish, and things that seem more beneficial to us like the Golden Rule are not found in the Old Testament (correct me if I'm wrong)? From what I know of the Bible, the Golden Rule (existing in other cultures long before, but besides the point) does nto creep up until Jesus comes into the picture. Why was it important for Jesus to mention it and not God himself?

Also, why is God reacting to what man did (Adam and Eve disobeying God) as if he didn't know this would happen? From what you describe in the post above, God is nothing more than a really powerful alien (from our perspective) messing with his experiment, with no idea what his experiment will do.

And I'd be cautious to declare God the moral elite with a track record far beyond our own (Noah's Ark is by far the most devastating of his feats). I can't comprehend a morally perfect being who would do such a thing to the very same people he created for simply not following his commands.

1.) Actually it makes alot of sense to say God is good.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You would be correct if this was the case. But it isn't. What about all the people living in the american continent and east asia, who knew nothing about God and developped their own religion?

Hold your horses buddy... you need to think about what you just said...

[GUNWOUNDS]

no the analogy in that separate thread wasnt intended as an answer for your post..... i am writing a response to your answer in microsoft word and will post when i am done.

btw that is an excellent and valid question. I have asked it many times myself.

ok here it is....

If what you say is true then Satan is succeeding at disrupting God's plans and preventing a whole lot of people from getting a chance at his grace. But God is much stronger than Satan and is able to (and will) defeat him. By not having already done it, he doesn't allow all these people to learn the truth about him and not develop some false religion.

Furthermore, while people after Jesus have the gift of his grace and those in the past had angels and prophets, some had neither. The "voice inside us" told them there was something more, but that alone was not enough for them to know what that is.

In short, why God helped some people establish their faith in him and know about him, but didn't do so for everyone? Assuming he's all-powerful, nothing could have hindered him.

If the analogy topic is intended as an answer, it won't do. Because the point I 'm making here is that God didn't gave the chance to some people to come to him as he did for others. (if you will, everyone can seek God; but he made it easier for some).

Ok i will use pygmies as an example...

What are pygmies?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Whats funny Spectral... is that even tho he did make it "easier" for some.... it doesnt matter.... people still reject him.

There is a church on every corner of every street in America.... and yet thousands of people are dying in the USA and going to Hell.

So making it "easy" doesnt necessarily guarantee that someone will accept God or guarantee one's salvation.

[Acriku]

Just wanted to say that we might have a feeling of "something more" only because we can't explain some things. The leap between being unable to explain and calling it God is huge. A naive intuition is no basis for argument.

Also, as for God wanting things to happen naturally, there is nothing natural about Jesus' arrival and departure that has concreted Christianity. So obviously, God picks and chooses which he wants to happen naturally or not. If he lets the unnatural experience of Jesus, why not more? He was so active in the beginning and things were very unnatural, so why stop now? Doesn't seem useful to just cease any activity with Earth and depend on other human beings to spread the word. This is true also because people may not be spreading the correct word, in fact reversing what Jesus intended.

Also, Jesus said spread the gospel, but what about the gospel that was voted against in the Council of Nicea? We could be missing valuable pieces to the Word of God just through that council.

[Dude_Doc]

If he lets the unnatural experience of Jesus, why not more? He was so active in the beginning and things were very unnatural, so why stop now? Doesn't seem useful to just cease any activity with Earth and depend on other human beings to spread the word. This is true also because people may not be spreading the correct word, in fact reversing what Jesus intended.

I tend to agree. We need "proof" today more than ever. Humans work in that way. If there is no reinforcement to a belief or a legend, then this will be turned into a "fictional story" from "a time where the clouds, waters and earth itself were controlled by gods".

[Caid Ivik]

Proof? Kill anybody and you will soon get it...

[Dude_Doc]

Proof? Kill anybody and you will soon get it...

How do you mean?

[Caid Ivik]

Teachings of Jesus are self-proving. At first sight it looks weird, but wisdom provided by God (who is also source of the very object of that wisdom) is logically mostly worth uncovering. Law of the love is simply useful for all.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Just wanted to say that we might have a feeling of "something more" only because we can't explain some things. The leap between being unable to explain and calling it God is huge. A naive intuition is no basis for argument.

Also, as for God wanting things to happen naturally, there is nothing natural about Jesus' arrival and departure that has concreted Christianity. So obviously, God picks and chooses which he wants to happen naturally or not. If he lets the unnatural experience of Jesus, why not more? He was so active in the beginning and things were very unnatural, so why stop now? Doesn't seem useful to just cease any activity with Earth and depend on other human beings to spread the word. This is true also because people may not be spreading the correct word, in fact reversing what Jesus intended.

Also, Jesus said spread the gospel, but what about the gospel that was voted against in the Council of Nicea? We could be missing valuable pieces to the Word of God just through that council.

I'm sorry for my semantics....i shouldnt have said "natural" i couldnt find the word i was looking for.  I didnt mean to imply that God never uses divine intervention..... I was trying to say "over time" ... meaning God does things at the right time and place.... Jesus came at the perfect time and perfect place.... avoided Herod's guards searching for him as an infant... and made his way to the cross as an adult.

As far as you thinking that missionaries are useless... well i disagree... sure there will be false prophets and those who lie... but that is why you pray for discernment from God.  To see what is true and what is not.  Its hard for me to explain this to you but after awhile you will begin to sense when someone is saying something that isnt biblically correct.  Not only that but you have teh biblical text right there in front of you .. and nothing is stopping you from learning greek or hebrew to translate it yourself and read it purely. 

You try to make it seem as if God is the lazy one.  But it is you and i who are lazy.  We can memorize all the lyrics to the top 100 songs on the billboard music charts but do we take time to memorize any hebrew or greek? ... we can play video games 18 hours a day and figure out an enemy AI and defeat it... but do we sit down and try to decipher what God is saying to us in biblical texts?..., we can stress out our bodies and drink alcohol and party and push our bodies to the limits till we throw up..... but when was the last time we tried to pray and learn about God till we puked?.  Our minds and bodies are powerful machines yet we waste them.....when it comes time to try to seek out universal truth we are the laziest creatures ever.

God has given us some powerful bodies to use and we dont use them.  So its hard for me to agree with you when you say God is lazy and devious....no.. it is we who need to grow up and say yes i am gonna try to figure this out and stop demanding that i be spoon fed.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i made some edits here spectral...

Sounds reasonable. However, this doesn't solve the problem of all those Pygmies who lived and died in ignorance. They seeked God and they were presented with Tore. Should God judge them as the rest?

[Acriku]

I'm sorry for my semantics....i shouldnt have said "natural" i couldnt find the word i was looking for.  I didnt mean to imply that God never uses divine intervention..... I was trying to say "over time" ... meaning God does things at the right time and place.... Jesus came at the perfect time and perfect place.... avoided Herod's guards searching for him as an infant... and made his way to the cross as an adult.

Actually, I think the perfect time would've been right before Noah's Flood. You know, to prevent the massacre of an entire world. But that's an acceptable loss, right? After all, you're saved.

As far as you thinking that missionaries are useless... well i disagree... sure there will be false prophets and those who lie... but that is why you pray for discernment from God.  To see what is true and what is not.  Its hard for me to explain this to you but after awhile you will begin to sense when someone is saying something that isnt biblically correct.  Not only that but you have teh biblical text right there in front of you .. and nothing is stopping you from learning greek or hebrew to translate it yourself and read it purely. 

I wouldn't say useless, but I wouldn't say truly beneficial either (from a secular viewpoint, but that's irrelevant). Anyway, what about those who think they are spreading the truth? Not necessarily those who are lying, but those who took the Bible and interpreted it wrong? For all we know, we would all be wrong because of the missing books from the Council of Nicea. By spreading the word, we give the accountability to more people who are given the wrong Word and therefore go to hell because they aren't ignorant anymore. I'd be very nervous if I were you abuot what exactly is missing from the bible.

You try to make it seem as if God is the lazy one.  But it is you and i who are lazy.  We can memorize all the lyrics to the top 100 songs on the billboard music charts but do we take time to memorize any hebrew or greek? ... we can play video games 18 hours a day and figure out an enemy AI and defeat it... but do we sit down and try to decipher what God is saying to us in biblical texts?..., we can stress out our bodies and drink alcohol and party and push our bodies to the limits till we throw up..... but when was the last time we tried to pray and learn about God till we puked?.  Our minds and bodies are powerful machines yet we waste them.....when it comes time to try to seek out universal truth we are the laziest creatures ever.

God has given us some powerful bodies to use and we dont use them.  So its hard for me to agree with you when you say God is lazy and devious....no.. it is we who need to grow up and say yes i am gonna try to figure this out and stop demanding that i be spoon fed.

How can we be to blame, when God is all-powerful? It's not even a question of laziness, pardon me using that term. It's neglectfulness because God could do it without breaking a sweat or wasting a single second. you're right though, we do need to grow up and stop being spoon fed. We as in the people who accept what they are told through a couple thousand years old book and their parents...

[GUNWOUNDS]

Oh the perfect time was Noah's flood? And just what evidence do you have for that Mr. Sherlock?

[Caid Ivik]

Gunwounds, you have a weird writing style, describing basic things in 6 KB. More you write, more place for errors and refutable details. And it all goes off topic then, as the topic here is pragmatism, not evolution of judeochristian ethics.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Its never possible to keep a thread entirely on topic as people will always add new material to their arguements which require its own rebuttal.... its even harder now because we have the same discussion going on in 3 different threads.