You have got to be kidding me! Battle of Corrin, Heretics, Chapterhouse spoilers

[Dante]

It's NOT JUST SOME RANDOM NOTES. It's a DETAILED, almost chapter-by-chapter OUTLINE written by Frank Herbert before he died for a single novel, Dune 7, left in a safety deposit box for over a decade. Unless you are accusing Brian Herbert of lying about this, about his dead father, then we have to accept it as gospel.

He could be lying. There. Also, where does it mention this highly detailed aspect of the notes? That's not something that I've come across before.

There should be a minimal amount of filling in the blanks when BH/KJA take pen to paper, which I'm not saying they won't do at all.

Didn't they already say that they'll be using it as a springboard for their own ideas? Can't remember where I saw that, darn it.

The only thing KJA/BH are really guilty of is doing the Legends trilogy as a kind of way to bookend everything, something FH arguably didn't definitively intend to ever do, and also of lacking the prose to do Dune 7 as a single novel (as FH intended) but stretching it to two novels.

Well that and generally writing some of the worst books ever to be published and mauling the duniverse while they're at it. The characterisation (or lack of it) alone is enough to justify homicidal rage. It's that aspect of the matter that really worries me when it comes to Dunes 7 and 8. That and the suggestion that they'll be writing in the destruction of Dune. As if they hadn't been dealt.

BH/KJA have adamantly said through the development of the House and Legends books that, of the Legends trilogy, "After you read Dune 7, you'll understand why we did the Legends books first! Trust us!" So it's kind of like they looked at the outline for Dune 7 and went, "OK, cool, we're gonna make Dune 7, but to really get our names onto Dune, we're gonna do a pseudo prequel to what's gonna happen in Dune 7 and do the Butlerian Jihad!"

Making names be damned, if Frank didn't intend to write prequels that they were not necessary.

[NeoDevilbane]

He could be lying. There. Also, where does it mention this highly detailed aspect of the notes? That's not something that I've come across before.

I keep hearing that from this board, "He could be lying! He could be lying!"

While I'll grant you it's at least possible, it's not likely and not characteristic of a man who wrote "Dreamer of Dune." Or any man -- any son that's loved a father that's passed on. You have to at least give him that much credit.

Read the end of House Atreides and do a google on just about any BH or KJA interview which touches on BH's surprise discovery of his father's safety deposit box. It's a full outline retrieved from floppy disk entitled "Dune 7"... people on this board seem to like to continue to suggest it's just "Frank's notes" on Dune 7, randomly scribbled here and there for KJA and BH play around with. No, it's an outline. Deal with it.

A more believeable scenario would be KJA duping BH (actually, in the beginning KJA approached BH about doing a sequel to Chapterhouse: Dune before BH talked him into doing prequels instead). KJA could have booted up an old 486 and DOS 3.0, changed the computer's date, and made a fake outline and saved it to disk, shopped it to a buddy who runs a safety deposit box shop and told him to call BH and tell him they he needs to come pick up his dead dad's box because it's been 15 years.

This isn't the movies, folks...

Didn't they already say that they'll be using it as a springboard for their own ideas? Can't remember where I saw that, darn it.

I've been keeping up with just about every snippet interview, press release, you name it, and I can say they've never said that directly pertaining to Dune 7. Maybe you read something to the extent of, they read the outline for Dune 7 and used it as a springboard for creating some backstory for it in the Legends trilogy (which they did)?

Well that and generally writing some of the worst books ever to be published and mauling the duniverse while they're at it. The characterisation (or lack of it) alone is enough to justify homicidal rage. It's that aspect of the matter that really worries me when it comes to Dunes 7 and 8. That and the suggestion that they'll be writing in the destruction of Dune. As if they hadn't been dealt.

Nobody was truthfully expecting Frank Herbert-quality prose going into House Atreides and through Battle of Corrin... hoping for it, certainly, but what we got is good reading enough for me.

Making names be damned, if Frank didn't intend to write prequels that they were not necessary.

We're in full agreement there. Though while I don't see the point so much of the House trilogy and *definitely* don't see any need for this useless "Paul of Dune" trilogy that's apparently been given the go-ahead by Tor Books (who cares about Paul pre-15 years old? and do we really need between-the-scenes scenes written by KJA/BH in the middle of the original Dune novel?), a lot of us Dune fanboys dreamed of one day reading about the war against the Thinking Machines, etc., so it's not like the Legends trilogy was totally unwarranted.

My thoughts on Dune 7... very optomistic, as they're going on a very thorough outline from FH. The dialogue they write may be on the trite side (which KJA/BH will create) and KJA/BH may continue over-describing every dust molecule, but am willing to grin and bear it for the good of the overall story (which is directly from FH)... disappointed not only that they felt the need to expand Dune 7 to two novels (now Dune 7 and 8 ) but that they felt they had the right to -- FH left an outline for Dune 7, not Dune 7 and 8, c'mon.

[Dante]

I keep hearing that from this board, "He could be lying! He could be lying!"

While I'll grant you it's at least possible, it's not likely and not characteristic of a man who wrote "Dreamer of Dune." Or any man -- any son that's loved a father that's passed on. You have to at least give him that much credit.

Hee. Noooo I don't. :) It's been years. Plenty of time to deal and get with the gold digging.

Read the end of House Atreides and do a google on just about any BH or KJA interview which touches on BH's surprise discovery of his father's safety deposit box. It's a full outline retrieved from floppy disk entitled "Dune 7"... people on this board seem to like to continue to suggest it's just "Frank's notes" on Dune 7, randomly scribbled here and there for KJA and BH play around with. No, it's an outline. Deal with it.

Ok...

"Are you still using those 1300 pages of notes you found when Frank Herbert died?

BH: The notes are more for coloring. There is a lot of philosophy, religion and some epigraphs. We also have found new chapters that dad wrote that he cut out. For example, the meeting of Lady Jessica and Duke Leto where one of them pulls a knife on the other. Frank Herbert wrote that scene; Kevin and I sanded it on each side and fit it into our stories. We're finding things like that, but mostly it's inspiration from my father."

What's that you say? The notes are more for colouring and inspiration? Well well well.

(Also, it seems very rude of him to include that reference to a deleted scene. It's like saying "Look, Frank Herbert actually considered using this scene! Ha! What a moron! We're improving it, yes indeedy.")

A more believeable scenario would be KJA duping BH (actually, in the beginning KJA approached BH about doing a sequel to Chapterhouse: Dune before BH talked him into doing prequels instead). KJA could have booted up an old 486 and DOS 3.0, changed the computer's date, and made a fake outline and saved it to disk, shopped it to a buddy who runs a safety deposit box shop and told him to call BH and tell him they he needs to come pick up his dead dad's box because it's been 15 years.

This isn't the movies, folks...

Hey, you suggested that "more believeable scenario," not me...

I've been keeping up with just about every snippet interview, press release, you name it, and I can say they've never said that directly pertaining to Dune 7. Maybe you read something to the extent of, they read the outline for Dune 7 and used it as a springboard for creating some backstory for it in the Legends trilogy (which they did)?

I doubt that. But since I can't find the source, the point is moot.

Nobody was truthfully expecting Frank Herbert-quality prose going into House Atreides and through Battle of Corrin... hoping for it, certainly, but what we got is good reading enough for me.

We are all entitled to our opinions. You like them, I find them to be dross of the lowest order. Live and let live, and all that.

We're in full agreement there. Though while I don't see the point so much of the House trilogy and *definitely* don't see any need for this useless "Paul of Dune" trilogy that's apparently been given the go-ahead by Tor Books (who cares about Paul pre-15 years old? and do we really need between-the-scenes scenes written by KJA/BH in the middle of the original Dune novel?), a lot of us Dune fanboys dreamed of one day reading about the war against the Thinking Machines, etc., so it's not like the Legends trilogy was totally unwarranted.

I wouldn't say full agreement... The Dune Encyclopaedia covered anything of interest with regards to Butlerian history, so the Legends (which were even worse than the House prequels) weren't really required. The sad thing is, I might actually have found some enjoyment in some aspects of the Legends (namely cymeks), had they been part of a completely different series. As in, not Dune.

My thoughts on Dune 7... very optomistic, as they're going on a very thorough outline from FH. The dialogue they write may be on the trite side (which KJA/BH will create) and KJA/BH may continue over-describing every dust molecule, but am willing to grin and bear it for the good of the overall story (which is directly from FH)... disappointed not only that they felt the need to expand Dune 7 to two novels (now Dune 7 and 8 ) but that they felt they had the right to -- FH left an outline for Dune 7, not Dune 7 and 8, c'mon.

So far, we've heard that they will be writing two books, one of which will start with the destruction of Dune (probably). This is enough to convince me that we are in for a treat. When your definition of 'treat' is 'mindlessly painful attack on the English language with little guidence and no point.' You optimistic if you want. I was optimistic for a while. But after six books, each successively worse than the last, the belief has faded, somewhat.

[NeoDevilbane]

Hey, you suggested that "more believeable scenario," not me...

Well, I just meant that any such a hypthetical scenario is more believeable to me than BH lying to the wrodl about finding FH's outline for Dune 7.

[Dante]

You would rather believe in a soap opera plot than greed?

[NeoDevilbane]

A direct link to where BH/KJA say it's a "Frank Herbert left a detailed and expansive outline for Dune 7, which wraps up many storylines introduced in the original six Dune Chronicles" :

http://www.dunenovels.com/FAQ.html

Just scroll down to where it says "What is the progress on Dune 7?"

[Dante]

Firstly, there is no specific mention of this detail outline actually being used for anything other that 'colouring.' Secondly, there is still the possibility of half-truth or even untruth. At the most basic level, I just don't trust them.

[judoka]

I rarely if ever actually post anything, but this one finally got to me...

I keep reading all the grumbling and whining that these guys don't write as well as Frank Herbert did...  That's right - they aren't Frank.  There are greatly talented individuals that pass through the world from time to time.  Frank Herbert was one.  Yes, he started it all.  He created and fleshed out a world and society that made everyone who encountered it go "Whoa!"  But even Frank had his "ups and downs" in the series.  The 4th & 5th books were to me a "little off" his normal level of excellence, but Chapterhouse got back to the "I can't turn the page fast enough to see what happens next" style that was what make the books through Children so special.  I think the problem some folks fall into is the deification of the original author.  Yes he was special.  Yes he created a fantastic universe, but he is gone.  The only way to get more of that universe is for SOMEONE to write about it.  You can't just be a guardian of the grail and say so-and-so write dreck.  I understand the need some feel to stand up and grumble.  The "Inner Curmudgeon" in all of us wants to do that from time to time.  However you have to weigh things in the proper perspective.  There are "lesser talent and vision" issues vs "What were the idiots thinking?!?!" type issues in anything Dune related.  I myself even thumped my chest at the rain scene in Lynch's Dune movie.  You just have to step back and say "Hey, if someone doesn't do it, I will never have anything more Dune related to grumble about".  If that were the case, I bet you that we'd be reading here "Why doesn't anyone ever write anything in the Dune universe?  We are starving for it out here..."

A lesser talent but actual writing is ok in my way of thinking.

Dune isn't a religion, though to read some posts you would think it was  ;D

I'll torture the analogy a bit more...

Having come through the Dark Ages after Frank's death, we are now in the Spanish Inquisition phase.  I can hardly wait till we hit the Age of Enlightenment...

[NeoDevilbane]

Well put, Judoka. The deification of FH is something most of us are guilty of.

[Dante]

It's less deification of Frank Herbert (though her certainly deserves it), more demonising of Brian Herbert and KJA (and hey, they deserve that too).

Thing is, I would be happy for someone to continue the Duniverse as a legacy of sorts. New material to keep cropping up. And it wouldn't matter if maybe some of it wasn't quite so excellent, at least they were keeping the series alive and adding some fresh insight, however poorly phrased. But there is a thin line between adding insight and hijacking a series to fulfill one's own ends. In my personal opinion, the two authors are treading on Frank Herbert's name, using it in order to publish their own works. This is insulting to us yes, but especially to Frank Herbert. Still, even given such circumstances as these, it might have been acceptable to publish the prequels.

But they're just so terrible. Seriously. The Legends series were awful books, and comparing them to Dune, attempting to class them together, is like putting 'A is for Ant' on a par with the Dictionary.

In other words, it's not that the prequels are bad compared to Dune, because nearly everything is bad compared to Dune. It's an unfair standard to measure by. It's that the prequels are truly dreadful in their own right.