The history of the Ordos

[Mahdi]

Originally a wealthy family they rose from a small buisness to a house minor to a House Major where they became a major economic powerhouse. During a daring asasination attempt, there entire family line was murdered and fearing the disolution of the House there closest advisors formed a coalition government in order to give the illusion of stability to the Emperor. Since no one was more powerfull than any other they amended there House charter so that the chairman had no more power than any other member of the Board. (Because they never were granted a royal title they ran along the lines of a buisness). After an intensive investigation by the Emperor, they were permitted to continue as a House. In order to prevent more assasinations, no one ever re-took the name Ordos and the coalition government settled on a new set of rules regarding there House which made assasination of an equal a useless enterprise.

Ulike SHaddam who said it is impossible for the ordos to exist in the universe FH created because it is fuedal, I beleive that the above explanation makes it entirely possible based on the precedents of House ATreides (Which became a Great House millenia before eveer haveing royal blod mix with theres) and House Harkonnen which became a great house by military and economic might and never had imperial blood. Also, upon the ending of the entire Harkonnen familial line in the Arrakis revolt, others on Gedi Prime took control of the House and took the HArkonnen name (Heritics of Dune).

[Gobalopper]

Where did you get the history of the Ordos from Mahdi? The DE?

[garth]

House: Idiomatic for Ruling Clan of a planet or planetary system.

Clan: Group of people who are related.

Houses Major: holder's of planetary fief's; interplanetary entrepreneurs.

For you to be considered a Great House by the definition given in the first novel of Dune you must having a ruling FAMILY, and a planetary fief awarded/given to you by an Emperor.

If you got the history from the Dune Encyclopedia or Westwood it doesn't matter, they are not canon sources and if Frank Herbert had wanted a House Ordos he would've put one in. The fact remains that there were tons of other Houses in the Duniverse mentioned that Westwood could've used (the license argument is no longer valid because they are now including the Bene Tleilaxu and House Ix, BOTH never mentioned in the movie).

You don't have to be royalty to be the Emperor, but when you become Emperor or are the member of the Emperor's family you are then royalty.

"Which became a Great House millenia before eveer haveing royal blod mix with theres"

This point cannot be proven, House Atreides was awarded a Dukedom after the Battle of Corrin (and therefore a Great House) no where in the original trilogy does it state when the royal blood mixed with House Atreides. The same can be said of House Harkonnen, even though the founder of the House was banished for cowardice, and then made it's RETURN to power through "adroit manipulation of the whale-fur market and later consolidation of the melange wealth from Arrakis". You do not HAVE to be of royal blood to be a Great House by definition.

[Mahdi]

As I said, Ordos was originally a family when they wre awarded House Major Status and afterwards were assasinated, then others took over the house but did not accept the Ordos name. And someone does say that House Harkonnen is jelous of Atreides because they have imperial blood and House Harkonnen came to power through economic might. (The prequel novels states when Atreides becomes linked with Corrinno) Also, ALL THE HARKONNENS ARE DEAD AT THE END OF DUNE, YET THE HOUSE CONTINUED TO EXIST LONG INTO THE REIGN OF THE TYRANT ACCORDING THE HERETICS OF DUNE. This sets precedent. I am not trying to say that Ordos was a "real" House in FH's universe, if he didn't say it was there he didn't want it to be there, I am saying that it is not immpossible for a group like them to have existed in that kind of universe. I never said that the above was cannon, hell I made it up myself as a possible history of them just to show that it is possible that they could exist in that universe. As far as I can see it is the most likley history of the Ordos if someone was going to make one up for westwood.

P.S.

Clan: group of families in a tribe

or

a group of people who can trace their descent from a common ancestor, or who identify with a common totem or animal

[garth]

The definition of Great House clearly says you must have a ruling family and a planetary fiefdom awarded to you by an Emperor.

What you are describing is not a Great House but an interplanetary corporation like CHOAM.

You said the ruling family was dead and that it is now run by a board of directors sharing equal power, if these members were all part of a single family then it would fit the definition of a Great House. But Westwood said it was made up of multiple families and this cannot be, therefore it is a corporation.

House Ordos was designed to fit in Westwood's own Dune universe, not the universe of Frank Herbert.

[Mahdi]

Once again, House Harkonnen existed long after the deaths of the ruiling family.

[jack9]

The logical point of needing to be awarded a fief by an Emperor is misinterpreted. When the planet was annexed into the Imperium, I would think that the 'royal bloodline' that was in power on that planet(fief), would have been designated the 'house' for a number of reasons and to contribute to the stability of the empire.

[garth]

I don't think the Imperium is like the one from Star Wars that goes around annexing planets and blowing them up, it includes all of humanity and any new planet discovered is incorporated into the Imperium and is set for colonization. I think the appendix in the back of Dune goes into more detail about how all of this occurred.

Mahdi, are they REALLY Harkonnens (as in direct descandants of the Baron's family) or are they just calling themselves Harkonnens?

It still doesn't matter because "House" Ordos never has and never will fit the definition of Great House, at the very best they could possibly be the planet bound entrepreneurial class of House Minor or an interplanetary corporation like CHOAM.

[Gobalopper]

Is House Ordos classified as a House major or minor in the DE? I think I remember them as being listed as minor.

[garth]

I wish I knew.......I've seen the DE go for as much as 75 dollars at an auction on E-Bay.

[jack9]

At some point a planet must ACCEPT Imperial rule or be ORDAINED as a fief. Either way, it is annexed, as all property is by a ruling social organization.

[Mahdi]

Hosue Harkonnen continued after the Death of the Harkonnens, but was not ruled by Harkonnens as they are all dead, which I've said in every single post in this thread. As the Head of Ordos was never given a royal title with his fief, he took the title chairman and ran his House like a corporation. When they died and another took the position of Chairman he was in fact taking the position of leader of the fief but because of the amendments made by the members of the board it was nothing more than a figurehead position and held no more power than any other board member. And since the board members are the richest members of House Ordos than when they die and pass there wealth down to there children, there children become the wealthiest members of the House and inherit there parents position so the board members are heridatory, including the chairman, which makes his family technically the ruiling family of Ordos even though they have no extraordinary power. Therefore they have a "Ruiling Family" in name if not in actualiity.

"at the very best they could possibly be the planet bound entrepreneurial class of House Minor "

If a planet bound Hosue Minor ended up owning everything on the planet then they would be granted House Major status. Just because you start out as a House Minor doesn't mean you never evolve beyond it.

To Jack:

"give the illusion of stability to the Emperor"

qoute from the first post.

[garth]

I just read the part in Heretics youre talking about and it mentions "Family Harkonnen" ruling the planet, just as there were Corrinos in God Emperor of Dune, and Atreides all over the place.

Great Houses were abolished in the 3,500 year reign of the God Emperor, they are simply called families, which reinforces my previous statement that in order to be considered a Great House you must have a ruling family, not board of directors. Although it mentions periodically in Heretics about a resurgence of power within the great Families this does not occur, and therefore House Harkonnen is deader than a doornail thanks to the God Emperor, but Family Harkonnen still ruled Giedi Prime, it was not a Great House (because it lacked an Imperial fiefdom). Having a family and calling yourselves one are two different things and it does not change the fact you have to have a heriditary monarchy as given in the definition of Great House taken from the Dune Appendix.

Jack: After the Butlerian Jihad all of Humanity bound together to form the Imperium, with House Corrino (Battle of Corrin that settled this dispute) as the ruling Great House. All leaders on all the planets that made it up were ordained by the Corrino Emperor, forming the fief, often going to general's that served bravely in the Battle. Is this what you mean by annexing those planets? Because after this battle there are no humans on any planet not accepting Imperial rule. The council of these ruling Great Houses then became the Landsraad and the metaphysical training organizations of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood and the Spacing Guild formed the other leg of this politcal tripod that maintained the balance of power in the universe for 10,000 years. Humanity accepted this unified Imperium to maintain stability (who would want another Jihad...).

Since House Ordos is a creation (FIRST) by the author of the Dune Encyclopedia, that history should be accepted as canon for the alternate universe of that author.

[Mahdi]

Of course the history in DE is cannon for it, just as there are no Ordos in Dune. But for the Westwood Ordos, there is no history. And it mentions House HArkoonnen althroughout Heritics, just not once. And as I said in my last post, Ordos has a ruiling Family, but they have no power, so no Bene Gesserit report would pretend that they rule the House, and Bene Gesserit reports are the only descriptions of Ordos. The Landsraad was abolished. There were no official Great Houses, but Leto 2 still refers to there being degrading former Great Houses and they still rule planets. And ALL THE HARKONNENS ARE DEAD. IT IS OTHERS WHO RULE THE HOUSE HARKONNEN THAT ARE NOT HARKONNENS, THEY TAKE OVER AFTER PAUL KILLS FEYD, BEFORE LETO ABOLISHED THE GREAT HOUSES. CORRINNO'S WERE NOT ALL DEAD. SHADDAM AND ELROOD HAD MANY DAUGHTERS WHO CONTINUED THE LINE, NOT JUST WENSCIA (SPELLING?) AND THE ATREIDES CONTINUED THROUGH THE LINE BY GHANI AND FARAD'N.

[ordos45]

MahdiDLA calm down. I think I'll just search for DE which is out of print and impossible to find almost.

[garth]

It doesnt even matter what Heretics said, the definition of a Great House from Dune says that you must have a ruling clan and a fief given by an Emperor. All throughout Dune the "clans" are referred to as families, not multiple families with a chairman with no real power.

Under this definition it is still impossible for a House Ordos to exist the canon universe of Frank Herbert, but it is possible for the House Ordos to exist in the Westwood universe.

That is what the definition says, and the context given in Dune all point that you must have a ruling family, you said the ruling family of Ordos were all murdered and were replaced by a board of directors formed from the closest advisors, these are MULTIPLE families. There is no precedence in the Dune Universe created by Frank Herbert that has a Great House ruled by many families and without those families having the Imperial grant of fiefdom. That is contradictory in itself.

[Mahdi]

"Therefore they have a "Ruiling Family" in name if not in actualiity"

My 2nd last post before this one.

[Mahdi]

oh, and Ordos, I was using the caps because I've had to post that same thing in every single message I've made on this thread, I thought it might finally be read that way.

[harkahn]

Ok, first off, since we are talking about fantastical reality, does anyone else see how easy it would be for house Ordos to have gotten past such simple requirements for a great house? First off though they may well be differing families, if when the true familial head of House Ordos were assasinated, and these other smaller houses wanted to keep control, first off they would only have to achieve nothing more than a very shallow compliance of these requirements. Now because of the Ixian side of the Ordos, and their smuggling for them, also with their already enormous wealth, they wield quite a bit of power. To have been deigned a Great House in the Landsraad, they would need only one or two other houses of Great status to support them, which wouldnt be that difficult to buy given the Ordos means, because besides any bribes to the Emperor already, it would give him reason to let them retain their stauts. Secondly, to put up the needed illusion of a Great house, these smaller ruling houses, with their chairman or whatever, could simply and half-legally take on the name Ordos as their own, besides their other family names, this is not without precedent as in the Imperium such is done often in matters of succession, such as the Baron Harkonne making heirs of Rabban and Feyd, who were from House Lankiveil, by simply giving them the name Harkonnen and taking them into the family. Now depending on how this is dont in the Imperium, it could be accomplished at least two ways. If changing the name requires a legal petition to the Emperor and his dispensation, then they could do such and easily bribe its way through with money, special smuggling of Ixina tech, and even swearing, secretly of course, allegiance to the Emperor. However if taking the name of a House is more a matter of tradition, whereas it must be given by an actual member of that House, hence one of the deceased Ordos, it would not be so hard for the sub-families to forge their way into such a place with a simple will and testament naming them all as Ordos and heirs should all Ordos be killed. With the appropriate bribes of money and capital, to the Emperor or whoever, this is easily doable, and whereas they name their Chairman the house head, whether he has power or not within the council, that requirement is also satisfied. Therefore, the Ordos could easily exist, in Herbert's cannon, truly even more easily, as the Imperium doesnt care, within reason, how a House conducts its business, only that it does without disturbing the peace. Even the Atreides themselves rule democratically on Caladan. I dont think it would matter much if House Ordos decided to rule their own interests with a rather small oligarchy. Ta Da. Well, I hope this helps. Farewell.

- Jason.

[Mahdi]

Thank you Jason.

[garth]

If you go by what Jason said then it could indeed be a House in Frank Herbert's universe but what you were saying Mahdi was that it would still be multiple families. If they all accepted the Ordos name then they could be legitimate by definition. But Westwood has said nothing about all of this and therefore it is just pure speculation, and House Ordos will not be legitimate until they address that issue (it is a westwood creation after all).

[Mahdi]

No shaddam, your still missing it. The Chairman and his family are the ruiling family of Ordos but they ahve no real power and have a figurehead position much like Todays Monarchy. They have been acknoledged as leaders of the Fief by the emperor but because they don't have enough power to control the House they formed the coalition unofficially with the other powers in House Ordos which are the board members, which fits with westwoods Ordos because there description is written by the Bene Gesserit who would say the real power "A group of wealthy buisnessmen" instead of the fake power recognized by the Landsraad and Emperor "Ruled by Chairman whatever his name is". I have said that in how many posts now...

[garth]

Mahdi i think youre missing my point:

Westwood has not provided enough background information on the history of the Ordos and therefore based on the scanty evidence there is no way it can be called a Great House in Herbert's universe.

Even making up stuff to try and explain it will not work because it is not official westwood lore, if the lore you made is made official by westwood then under those guidlines it can be considered a Great House. Not until then however, because it is not canon Westwood lore.

The Westwood lore says absolutely nothing about what you and Jason have described and although it is very creative it is not official.

If you look at the Dune2000 instruction book at the background evidence given AS OFFICIAL then judging by that little blurb it is impossible for it to fit the definition of Great House.

Do you see what I'm saying?

[harkahn]

Hey Shaddam, I understand what you are saying, but I also understand what Madhi is saying. Westwood left most of this up to our own imagination. If you go by what westwood said of Harkonnen and Atreides you could pull those houses apart as legitimate by the same way as the Ordos, however, you must take into account the whole cannon, the DE, the Herbets novels, even these games... they may have minor contradictions, but they all add to the same universe. The contradictions, if you wish can be seen as the same as contradictions you get in real-life histories... there are differences, though the story maybe the same. Anyway, I have already demonstrated how Ordos could easily exist in the Dune cannon, even under Herbert, and though I understand most definitely your points, Shaddam, I am just saying use your imagination. Nothing against us Dune fans, but those crazy Star Wars fanatics got it down, man, if they find a gap in the story, even a contradiction, or room for improvement or embellishment, they make it up themselves and write it and make it part of the SW universe. I admire that to be honest, so while Madhi's explanation or history may have some bad flaws, you cannot blame the guy for trying... I think maybe we should have more peeps writing fan fiction. Well, you guys understand. Farewell.

- Jason.

[garth]

I'm not blaming him for trying but based on and ONLY ON the information given by Westwood for the Ordos it does not fit the definition of a Great House.....they have no background concerning the origins of a royal family, no amended house charter, no powerless chairman with board of directors. NOTHING. Its Westwood's own fault for leaving such gaps in the lore.

I'm merely defending my earlier statement on another message board, if he disagrees with me thats fine, but I based my opinion solely on the facts given by Westwood.