Citizen monitoring (Israel, and elsewhere)

[Egeides]

This article (http://www.opendemocracy.org/debates/article-1-111-2033.jsp) is about how citizen monitoring is done, and I lurned that Israel started to monitor its own Jewish citizens (those that take anti-colonies stances). If you go at the conclusion, you lurn two things:

1- The citizen database even recorded the citizen's street where h lived while he was young

2- The citizen did not know about it even if he is interested in these matters

Also, I found interesting to lurn that the monitoring went up to asking who are your relatives, who did you met, and other questions having to do with your relashionships (thus regulating them from the state, since you are obviously not allowed to lie). Basically, the state seems to take note of who you are talking to and goes onto the "right to form group" a bit.

I would have a question after this...

When should a state get the right to monitor who you talk to, what you talk about, your ideal...? From this moment, the regulatory mecanism of citizens checking the state is disrupted and this is why the question is interesting.

Of course, there is also all the problematics about Israel also included in the article.

[lowzeewee]

I guess you can't stop the government from controlling you like a droid. If USA and/or fellow allies uses it, then the whole world will have nothing to be able to stop them from using it.

[leo]

This article (http://www.opendemocracy.org/debates/article-1-111-2033.jsp) is about how citizen monitoring is done, and I lurned that Israel started to monitor its own Jewish citizens (those that take anti-colonies stances). If you go at the conclusion, you lurn two things:

1- The citizen database even recorded the citizen's street where h lived while he was young

2- The citizen did not know about it even if he is interested in these matters

Also, I found interesting to lurn that the monitoring went up to asking who are your relatives, who did you met, and other questions having to do with your relashionships (thus regulating them from the state, since you are obviously not allowed to lie). Basically, the state seems to take note of who you are talking to and goes onto the "right to form group" a bit.

I would have a question after this...

When should a state get the right to monitor who you talk to, what you talk about, your ideal...? From this moment, the regulatory mecanism of citizens checking the state is disrupted and this is why the question is interesting.

Of course, there is also all the problematics about Israel also included in the article.

The monitoring is because there are some left-wing extremists that cooperate with the Palestinians, even with the terror groups, if for instance a terror cell will get a Jewish "agent" in Israel... Well let's say it can cause some problems. It's like blamin USA for monitoring potential terrorists that arrive to the USA.

[Dude_Doc]

But monitoring has been going on since Echelon was first put to use. Not only does it monitor American e-mails and phone-lines, but European, Asian and all other parts of the world as well. As long as they don't put cameras in my appartment or so, I don't have a bigger problem with it. Do also mind that electronic monitoring isn't "that bad", that is, they don't sit there and actively watch your every move on your own computer.

[TMA_1]

things are different in israel. If you start comparing the relative safety of places like america and european countries to israel than you are nuts. Desperate times need desperate measures, and frankly throughout modern israel's history, most of it's times ahve been desperate, which really makes me sad. I totally see where israel is coming from with this. If you start bashing israel with everything like with issues like this (nobody on here has but I have heard it a lot) without even having a clue of what it is like to livei n those kinds of conditions, then you are ignorant and completely rude. I mean is is hard living over there in many ways compared to the saftey that many other western nations have. How can one judge a nation like israel on all it's actions when it is just trying to maintain it's existance?

whats worse is the UN has never been friendly to israel,a nd it cracks me up that every time israel starts to win a war, the UN then steps in to stop the fighting.

[Egeides]

It is more than that. The question is about keeping your power by undermining the very infrastructure that justify your power. When saying a comment against the government is a motive to go against you, it does that. In this specific case, I see this as a pretty icey matter.

[nemafakei]

"When should a state get the right to monitor who you talk to, what you talk about, your ideal...?"

Depends what you mean by state and monitor.

If you mean little microphones everywhere, communications taps, and lots of people constantly listening to the 50% of the world who isn't busy listening to someone else, then no, that's wrong.

But if you mean that there should be logs of communications made, there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I don't care if a computer somewhere knows everything I have ever thought, said, or done.

The real question is when a human should look at those logs. I would care if a civil servant took an overkeen interest in any telephone conversations I make with friends or family.

The answer is when the enactment of illegal activity is thought to be under discussion. I don't mind if someone who I'm never going to meet and who does not have any bearing on me finds out bank details, looks through my financial records, etc, if they have good evidence that I'm committing fraud. Likewise, if they have good reson to suspect I'm inciting discriminatory hatred, let this person listen to 'phone calls to others whom they also suspect of being involved.

However, this power should only be accessible to members of appropriate government organisations: those whose conduct is guaranteed by their job itself, such as MI5/MI6/GCHQ (here), and those sections of HM Constabulary who deal with organised crime. This should therefore prevent the powers being abused for political, religious, or similar ends.

[Andoreion]

But monitoring has been going on since Echelon was first put to use. Not only does it monitor American e-mails and phone-lines, but European, Asian and all other parts of the world as well.

The problem is that there is very little supervision in such areas.

(http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Industrial%20espionage)

The United States government has admitted to using commercial espionage, for instance using surveillance of phone calls to determine that a French competitor of a US firm was bribing Brazilian officials to obtain an air traffic control radar contract (it was later revealed that the US firm was also bribing officials). It is generally believed that most large intelligence agencies are involved in the practice. A commission of the European Parliament suspects that ECHELON, a communications espionage system operated by the NSA and agencies of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, is used for political espionage and occasionally to help American companies against European competitors.

Or to quote NBC news;

While the U.S. government has long maintained that its intelligence agencies don

[Dude_Doc]

Well, of course. When corporations want to make money, they are ready to do anything. As they mentioned in the movie "The Recruit" (about the CIA): When we succeed, nobody knows about it, when we fail, everybody know.

Ironically, we know that the CIA are fighting terrorism and other "James Bond" stuff, but we don't know if they participate in industrial espionage. Maybe they do...

[TMA_1]

there is way too much idealism when politics come into play. As horrible as it is, politics are not a place for many ethics. The morals of a nation are relative, but the ethics are what make our morals, and with politics they enter into a whole different set of ethics.

Ethics are basically those things we aught to do, while morals are those things we do based on our ethics. people confuse them way too much, especially with politics because in the realm of politics whole new ethics reveal themselves.

It would be nice if israel had the ability to do always the most noble and humane things, but often nations dont have the fortune of doing these right and noble things. Israel is probably one of the most plagued when it comes to terrorism, america doesnt even hold a candle to what israel goes through, and it is a little arrogant to place our judgement on a nation that deals with something that we dont. America has a tendancy to do this and it is just wrong.

Israel is in a constant state of war, and their survival is threatened on a constant basis. People judge them because of their harsh tactics like when they went under Operation Wrath of God, and assassinated many terrorists. The world community cried out in anger, but it is funny that they seem to forget taht during ww2 the british hatched many assassination plots against certain nazi officials and high up leaders. Also for example during vietnam, there were assassination attempts made. Also america tried and did assassinate a few dictators in south and central america, even in cuba.

Constantly we overlook these things, and nations like america have done worse than israel even when they were not in a state of war! Israel has been saint-like compared to many nations when handling many problems during war-time attacks.

Israel ahs bent over backwards in so many cases, even with the palistinians who most didnt even live in israel until the 20th century. Most of the palistinians are actually jordanians and a few egyptians that moved in much later! I mean for goodness sake look at jerusalem. Even after the fall of israel, jerusalem has constantly, even during the reign of the ottoman empire, been populated by jews. Constantly it has stayed at a level of about 65 %. Now that israel did move in during the late 40s and has continued to populate israel, it has grown even more. And even then israel ahs tried on a canstant basis to build a palistinian state, and being more than fair in their attempts to appease the palistinians, but the palistinians are always the agressors. I mean have any of you read the peace agreements? israel practically gives away stuff that is rightfully theirs, just for the sake of peace. Constantly giving them good land and soverignty, as well as parts of jerusalem to share.

but why is israel attacked?

argh it just frustrates me.