Finally .... a clear explanation of the problem of Islamic Salvation

[GUNWOUNDS]

Here was a letter written by

[nemafakei]

"and he willingly did sin"

So the search for knowledge is evil, according to the Christian faith, is it?

[GUNWOUNDS]

"and he willingly did sin"

So the search for knowledge is evil, according to the Christian faith, is it?

i am sorry could you be more specific

[nemafakei]

Why is what Adam did sin? He disobeyed God, yes, but he was in the search of knowledge. He did nothing objectively wrong.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Why is what Adam did sin? He disobeyed God, yes, but he was in the search of knowledge. He did nothing objectively wrong.

i found what you were referring to....

[nemafakei]

"If my child wants to learn about..."

Let's not use that analogy, because the object is not in that case a good one, and, as I say, unless you're suggesting that knowlegde in general is a bad thing, then the analogy is skewed.

"Also it wasnt just disobedience... his eating for the fruit was out of pride as well... as Satan said... "you could be God" if you eat from the tree"

Is god not good? Should we not aspire towards goodliness?

Imagine a country with state control of media, such that all knowledge is controlled by the autocrat. Imagine that this autocrat is the sort who would kick you out for disobeying him. If you were offered a reliable source of information that the autocrat had forbidden, but a source that, you were told, would give you enough power to stand up to the autocrat. Would you go to the state media, and ask for that information, when you were told that the information from any other source was bad (which implies to me that the state media's answer would differ from the true answer)? Or would you take the opportunity to learn? If not, would it have been out of fear? Therefore, should you, in fact, have taken the opportunity to learn?

[GUNWOUNDS]

"If my child wants to learn about..."

Let's not use that analogy, because the object is not in that case a good one, and, as I say, unless you're suggesting that knowlegde in general is a bad thing, then the analogy is skewed.

"Also it wasnt just disobedience... his eating for the fruit was out of pride as well... as Satan said... "you could be God" if you eat from the tree"

Is god not good? Should we not aspire towards goodliness?

Imagine a country with state control of media, such that all knowledge is controlled by the autocrat. Imagine that this autocrat is the sort who would kick you out for disobeying him. If you were offered a reliable source of information that the autocrat had forbidden, but a source that, you were told, would give you enough power to stand up to the autocrat. Would you go to the state media, and ask for that information, when you were told that the information from any other source was bad (which implies to me that the state media's answer would differ from the true answer)? Or would you take the opportunity to learn? If not, would it have been out of fear? Therefore, should you, in fact, have taken the opportunity to learn?

ok fine i will use another analogy....

If a doctor wanted to pursue medical knowledge and kidnapped people and killed them and cut them open instead of going to the medical library and reading about human anatomy....that would be wrong.

this is the same as my previous analogy above.... there is a right way and a wrong way to do things... including obtaining knowledge.

Also YOUR dictator analogy doesnt hold... because

[GUNWOUNDS]

also you dictator analogy doesnt hold because if God is all-knowing then he knows what is best for you

[nemafakei]

Your entire argument rests on the assumption that Adam already the difference between right and wrong, and so why God is the 'moral absolute' - which he didn't until he ate the fruit.

When did I say anything about the dictatorship being corrupt or bad? The only judgement I made was on the quality of the information - why would someone forbid you to use a source of information with no explanation, and not teach you it himself if he wanted you to know? I take that from logic, not from morals. Likewise with Adam - he doesn't know any better than what the snake tells him, and morals are irrelevant to his decision.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Your entire argument rests on the assumption that Adam already the difference between right and wrong, and so why God is the 'moral absolute' - which he didn't until he ate the fruit.

When did I say anything about the dictatorship being corrupt or bad? The only judgement I made was on the quality of the information - why would someone forbid you to use a source of information with no explanation, and not teach you it himself if he wanted you to know? I take that from logic, not from morals. Likewise with Adam - he doesn't know any better than what the snake tells him, and morals are irrelevant to his decision.

he knew more  "than just what the snake told him" 

he knew who his father was.... he knew who God was.... he knew God said dont do that.... he knew what disobedience was therefore he knew it was wrong .... I said he was disobedient not stupid.    And you have no reason to believe that whatever knowledge we obtained from Adam's disobedience wasnt going to be given to us later on anyways.  And perhaps there was nothing wrong with the information itself EXCEPT for the fact that it could bring extra responsibility or vulnerability that we perhaps didnt need or wasnt ready for at the moment.

[nemafakei]

"he knew what disobedience was therefore he knew it was wrong"

He didn't know it was wrong without the fruit, though!

[Cyborg]

As God was the father of Adam, why didn't he, as Adam's father, make it more clear that, by eating from that tree, God would literally kick him out of his garden. God sees everything, so why didn't he prevent Adam from eating from the tree when he was about to? As a father, I would not just watch my child have sex with a prostitute, and then punish it later; I would have taken action if possible.

One thing is that God has made a world where evil is often more tempting than good... Why he did that, I don't know, but he quickly found out that he needed to insert quite a few rules just to keep us from doing that we probably would want to do one day...

Another thing is that God is not very forgiving when banishing Adam and Eve from the garden after eating from the tree. You don't need to be omnipotent to know that your child often does things you don't want it to, or even specifically tell it not to...

[GUNWOUNDS]

"he knew what disobedience was therefore he knew it was wrong"

He didn't know it was wrong without the fruit, though!

you are assuming that the fruit was the only way for Adam to learn anything... that is a false assumption.

If God told Adam not to do something..... then from that very moment Adam learned something from God... he didnt have to access the fruit as his only way to learn.

[GUNWOUNDS]

As God was the father of Adam, why didn't he, as Adam's father, make it more clear that, by eating from that tree, God would literally kick him out of his garden. God sees everything, so why didn't he prevent Adam from eating from the tree when he was about to? As a father, I would not just watch my child have sex with a prostitute, and then punish it later; I would have taken action if possible.

Well first of all God would not have jumped in there and put a stop to things.... that would have been a serious violation of free will.

[Cyborg]

Now you may ask yourself why?  ... it is because if he let it go or if he closed his eyes to it .... what would make him any different from man ?  he would no longer be the perfect God or the absolute goodness.

Ah, a most clever way of being a perfect God... Just throw away everything imperfect that you've made.

But that's how it's done in the real world too. If something doesn't meet the standards, it's discarded.

Well first of all God would not have jumped in there and put a stop to things.... that would have been a serious violation of free will.  If he was gonna control Adam like a puppet then he might as well have never have made him.  But you are missing one thing.... its what is in your heart as well..... even if you stop your kid from sleeping with a prostitute .. the fact remains that he still wants to... and probably will try again.  So the fact that Adam already decided in his Heart to disobey God it was already over.  Thats the key.  God looks at your heart.  Deeds are important but even an evil man can do good deeds.  What is in your heart is what matters.

Ok, I see. He looks more at it like this: If my son is stupid enough to want sex from a prostitute, there is no need to stop him. He is who he is, and if that's what he wants, then be it. The child is an evil child...

However, the evil child will also do good deeds. No doubt about that.

As far as bad things tempting us today... that is because we are currently cursed with a sinful nature due to Adam's disobedience.  Since he was the first and eldest human .. he represents us all.. you might as well say that when he sinned his hand and fingers sinned and his DNA as well.... which was passed down to us...  thats why christians call it being "born again" when you accept Christ. You get a new christ like nature.  You are basically telling God that you reject Adam's nature that was passed on to you and that you Accept Jesus' nature.... and since Jesus is a willing participant the offer is accepted by God.

So he sinned his hand and fingers, and that made his DNA change(I supose it changed when he sinned it?)? A very interesting story. I always thought you could sin something, but the brain made an action which resulted in a sin.

But if he only sinned his hand and fingers, it should not be such a big problem, and if the DNA changed, it must've been a punishment from God. Why would he bring bad genes upon future human kind just because of Adam's action?

I thought when someone was born, it was a fresh start, but children start their lives in a cursed state, and God offers the antiserum if you choose to reject God's Adam's nature...

I must say this made me a bit more confused in the discussion. I hope you will try to bring more clarity in it.

[Ninja_Sher]

Well in any case Adam is not the only one made some mistakes. If you look up a lot more prophets of Islam might have made some mistakes. Which could mean more contradictions.

There might be other explanation though Adam might have been prophet after the start of his human life. As a matter of fact not everyone could be born prophet. Anyways these all things make me crazy, the more you persuit knowledge in these things the crazier you get ....

I am confused what is what ...

Anyway in Christianity Adam is the first mortal and not a prophet so no contradition there, right?

[GUNWOUNDS]

1.) Ah, a most clever way of being a perfect God... Just throw away everything imperfect that you've made.

But that's how it's done in the real world too. If something doesn't meet the standards, it's discarded.

2.) So he sinned his hand and fingers, and that made his DNA change(I supose it changed when he sinned it?)? A very interesting story. I always thought you could sin something, but the brain made an action which resulted in a sin.

But if he only sinned his hand and fingers, it should not be such a big problem, and if the DNA changed, it must've been a punishment from God. Why would he bring bad genes upon future human kind just because of Adam's action?

I thought when someone was born, it was a fresh start, but children start their lives in a cursed state, and God offers the antiserum if you choose to reject God's Adam's nature...

I must say this made me a bit more confused in the discussion. I hope you will try to bring more clarity in it.

1.) Yes but God takes the time to offer repair... a second chance.

[Wolf]

I think, after examining Islam in depth, it could be just as coherent a belief system as Christianity. Although, I will admit, Gunwounds, your presentation of Christianity paints it as one rock-solid system.

[Cyborg]

What about Adam?

Why didn't he repent his sins?

[GUNWOUNDS]

What about Adam?

Why didn't he repent his sins?

How do you know he didnt?

[Cyborg]

because God must be quite angry with him when he sort of threatens the human population to say no to Adam...

They really should've settled it and got friends...

[GUNWOUNDS]

because God must be quite angry with him when he sort of threatens the human population to say no to Adam...

They really should've settled it and got friends...

well i look at it like Adam had contaminated himself .. and had to purify himself before coming back to God's presence.

And the threat or curse was sort of an indirect curse... we are only dying and decaying because we are out of God's presence.

[Cyborg]

but if Adam had repented his sins... He would've joined God again...

Or was God not forgiving him?

[GUNWOUNDS]

but if Adam had repented his sins... He would've joined God again...

Or was God not forgiving him?

Well we kind of take it for granted that we can "repent" nowadays through Christ.

[Cyborg]

Why did people need to sacrifice things then?

I don't really see the idea of killing an animal(or even a human) to get rid of your sins.