The Rich, the Elite, the Democrats

[ordos45]

Kerry sees none of that money!

I didn't say none, I said that she is quite staunch about the difference between her money and his.  Did you read about the hissy fit she threw when her taxes were put under question by Republicans saying she financed her husband's campaign?

[Caid Ivik]

He's the left-wing version of Emprworm, by his own standards.

;D

[emprworm]

I know. Dan is just as intolerant as those he condemns for intolerance. He's the left-wing version of Emprworm, by his own standards. Funny, Dan, why is it that all politics that fit the category of "nuttery" are shared by right-wing politicians with you? Don't give me your token out-of-line Democrat as a counter-example, I know how you feel.

because Dan is biased.

[Wolf]

If that his true, and he wins the election, it will then become clear how out of touch he is with society, and if it is the truth, society will judge him as such. However, it stands to reason that he will most likely blame the results of his own mistakes on the opposition party...

[Caid Ivik]

Only mistake an American can make is to become a president. That's an automatic summoning of judge, while the result can be only despising. They were insulting Reagan, Bushes, Nixon and such as well as Carter, Johnson, Kennedy or Clinton. No matter of his proclamations, acts or ideas.

[nemafakei]

Seems again the US people have a Hobson's choice.

[Wolf]

I apologize, I'm unfamiliar with that term... what is it?

[danielsh]

because Dan is biased.

[Wolf]

It's good to get a rise out of Dan. :)

[nemafakei]

A Hobson's Choice is where neither option is particularly nice, but you have no option but to accept the lesser evil.

When you say 'rise', what do you mean? I've never seen the word used in that way.

[danielsh]

When you say 'rise', what do you mean? I've never seen the word used in that way.

He means a reaction. I guess "to get a rise out of" is an American English colloquialism... he's basically saying that he was baiting me and is now pleased that I took the bait and reacted according to his dastardly plan.

Matt: Jerk.  :P

[Wolf]

I love you, too, Dan.

Yes, I think that "to get a rise out of" someone is an American colloquialism.

Dan, I still mean what I said, but only to a degree. You should not become intolerant of people, no matter what their stances are. However, while I feel that you may have been a little intolerant of "the Right" (you don't see me calling any liberals or conservatives nutbars), my response was exagerrated, and I do not feel that you usually are an intolerant person in the least. I apologize if I offended you.

Now, back to the debate;

"Can President Bush relate to an impoverished inner-city African-American? Even more importantly: Would he choose to? I'm not objective by any stretch of the imagination, nor is any other human being. I bring my personal experiences, beliefs, and feelings into any debate, as, again, does every other human being."

Can he relate to such an individual? The answer is no, Bush cannot -- and neither can Kerry. Would he choose to? Bush, perhaps, might try, but he would not be successful. Kerry, I believe, is smart enough not to, and is going to make up for it by pumping government money into social programs (75% of the US budget goes to social programs, the military sees less than 5% -- to compare the liberal and conservative breakdown in the budget).

About their experiences? Well, if I was a conservative warhawk, I would admire Kerry's military service more than Bush's... say what you might about his politics, but the man has quite a war record.

[danielsh]

I'm not offended. However, I stand by my beliefs about Bush and Kerry. Let's imagine a conversation between President Bush and an impoverished inner-city-dweller:

President Bush: Hey there! How are you enduring your freedom today?

Impoverished Gentleman: I live in constant fear of being fired. Yesterday I had to choose between eating and paying for my son's antibiotics. My wife is battling a disease that could be easily treated, if we just had some affordable health care. I'm sure that the fumes at my factory are giving me lung cancer, but thanks to tort reform I can't sue him.*

PB: Ooh, that's a shame! Why don't you get a better job?

IG: There aren't any jobs. I need support.

PB: No you don't! You rise and fall on your own merits---why don't you just stop choosing to be poor?

IG: I didn't choose to be poor.

PB: Look, if you just worked harder---

IG: I hold down two jobs. My wife works during the day while my kids are in school---

PB: Ahh! Now there's something I've done right!

IG: ---school, learning from textbooks printed in the early 1960s, and teachers who lost it at about the same time. The state Board of Ed had to cut the budget for supplies even further to pay for more standardized tests, and devote more funding to preparing disabled kids to take them. If every child---leaning disability or no---doesn't meet the same standard, the school will be closed down.

PB: Umm... here, have an education voucher.

IG: The nearest private school is a 90 minute commute from here---

PB: Listen, I think I hear Rovey calling me. Enjoy that voucher!

IG: (Cries.)

END SCENE

* The tort reform thing is hyperbole... now.

At least Kerry would get the guy some money, the guy's kid some education, his wife some health care (if not much), and his lawsuit a judge.

[Edric O]

Tell me, Emprworm, is it BAD for someone to be obscenely rich while others suffer in poverty?

If YES, then welcome to the socialist club!

If NO, then you're a hypocrite for criticizing rich people like Kerry.

...see, the absurd thing about Emprworm is that he criticizes Kerry from a left-wing standpoint. He's saying that Kerry isn't left-wing enough.

Well, I certainly agree. But what does that say about Bush?

[otheymzefedaykin]

heil Bush ? ???

[Wolf]

Shhhh... not yet Fedaykin! :) But, seriously, don't compare Bush to Hitler -- I once spoke with a woman who survived the holocaust, she said that there is absolutely no comparison, whatsoever.

Edric; I believe you are right. While emprworm makes a good point (that, yes, Kerry is not the poor boy and should not pass himself off as one), the fact that he argues from such a polarized political view makes his ideals, while different, identical in nature to the polarized views that he is purportedly against.

[nemafakei]

The question is: does Kerryclaim to have empathy with the poor? Note: that's not the same as supporting their cause. If so, he is fit to be criticised. Elsewise, what do you expect of someone standing for president? No poor man has a chance in hell; you must be reasonably rich to be able to afford to stand.

[emprworm]

[otheymzefedaykin]

Shhhh... not yet Fedaykin! :) But, seriously, don't compare Bush to Hitler -- I once spoke with a woman who survived the holocaust, she said that there is absolutely no comparison, whatsoever.

Yes, but Fox News did the same thing with Chirac (or a american patriotic website...I don't know)

no problem.

[Wolf]

No, I do not believe it was Fox News, Fedaykin; but, even if it were, that does not mean Chirac is anything like Hitler (he is not), and it does not give you the right to say the same thing about Bush. Because you call me stupid does not make my calling you stupid any more right.

[nemafakei]

"If he was a true believer in Marxism, there is no way in hell he would vote for Kerry"

So you're saying that Bush is more likely to bring the US closer to a socialist economy (such as might then lead to communism) than Kerry?

Just because he's richer than Bush doesn't mean he can't support more left wing policies than Bush! At the end of the day, the primary concern has to be the policies enacted. No matter how irritatingly rich Kerry is, Bush is worse for news for the marxist.

As regards parties further left wing, that's an issue such that ideally, you'd give your vote to them, but with the Republican/Democrat duopoly on electability (a biproduct of a plutocratic democracy like the US), then voting for the more radical option weakens the chances of any progression at all, since it risks losing the gradual option as well.

Of course, that's debatable, and you may well feel your vote is better used to make a point by giving the other lefties a better proportion of the vote.

[otheymzefedaykin]

No, I do not believe it was Fox News, Fedaykin; but, even if it were, that does not mean Chirac is anything like Hitler (he is not), and it does not give you the right to say the same thing about Bush. Because you call me stupid does not make my calling you stupid any more right.

You are right ! It wasn't Fox News for one time :O ! It was a boycott website :

http://www.cafeshops.com/notofrance/85530

The difference is that I was joking !

But You are right on this point (and the others ones too) ! But I was joking ! And I did't said that you're stupid (emprworm maybe, but you.. Nooooooo !

[Wolf]

Oh, no, Fedaykin, I did not mean to imply that you called us stupid; it was just an example. I like you, too. :)

Besides, calling France a Nazi state is just way outta line. You can't just walk up and label a group of people who you disagree with as "Nazi" because you disagree with them. Maybe France is a little Socialist, but so is Canada. Are they Nazis, too?

[emprworm]

neither kerry nor bush will bring the US closer to marxism.

[Wolf]

Or, if, to them, they feel that beating Bush is more important than voting their belief/conscience.