The Bolivarian Revolution

[Edric O]

A wave of protests, revolutions and landslide victories in elections for radical left candidates is sweeping across Latin America. The workers and poor people all over the continent are finally beginning to take their destiny into their own hands. But things are still far from being settled. In this topic, I wish to discuss about the popular movement who first broke the ice, and about the very first "people's president" to win elections by a landslide and begin implementing radical reforms. I'm talking about the Bolivarian movement in Venezuela, and its leader, President Hugo Ch

[Caid Ivik]

He will fall like Lukasenko and Castro in close time too. Now they are adored by leftist "intellectuals", but it's just matter of time then, until their oppressivity and brutality will be discovered. Then they will be redesigned to stalinist dictators and another unsuccessful attempt to build the bright future...

[Edric O]

Strawman. You're trying to make Ch

[Caid Ivik]

Well, Dean seem to me the most red thing ever lived on american soil from times of Winnetou. But sorry, when I read things like "(not to mention the fact that Castro and Lukasenko themselves are a far cry from being "oppressive" - they have the support of the majority of their people, and they have done more good than bad)" I will be rather silent, I don't want to mess up with cuban or belarusian secret services  ::)

[Edric O]

LOL, you must have heard the Fox News version of Dean. But in reality, Dean is just your average social democrat (which might be unusual for America, but not for us Europeans), somewhere close to Gerhard Schroeder. He's not even as left-wing as some of the great figures of social democracy, like Francois Mitterrand.

The belarusian or cuban secret services are hardly any more "oppressive" than the secret services of your average capitalist country - and they're amateurs compared to the CIA.

Lukasenko's government is democratic - and as for Castro, he is one of the rare people than can truly be seen as benevolent dictators. Even the most right-wing estimates don't seem to manage to blame Castro for more crimes than the number carried out in your typical American invasion. Hell, the war in Iraq has been the source of more crimes and human rights violations than Castro's entire 40-year reign!

If you want to talk about brutal dictators, why don't we discuss your beloved right-wing thugs that used to rule all over South America until recently? You seem to dislike Lukasenko, yet the life of the average belarusian is infinitely better than the life of the average russian (who has been reduced to inhumane poverty by the ruthless capitalist oligarchs that control Russia's economy).

I don't like any kind of authoritarian regime, but I'll rather take a strong central government that takes care of its people than a capitalist oligarchy who throws millions of innocent victims into poverty and misery.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, I make my opinion by what he says. His program was to create some kind of Union of Socialistic America or what... But of course, we can't say he would start a reign like Lukasenko or Castro. Of course, they are fanatical democrats, each elections they won with massive majority - fact that no one dared to counter them just shows, that our big Brothers of People do their work with zeal and love.

Also, you in Romania can see Fox News? I have only CNN and BBC.

[ordos45]

Also, you in Romania can see Fox News? I have only CNN and BBC.

I'll trade you Fox News for the BBC...nevermind, I just realized I have BBC America now. 

As for Castro's crimes being less than the American invasion of Iraq, I'm not sure of that.  He has had some rough spots with dissenters and such over the years, plus there was the overthrow of the dictator Batista.  (Why can my nation never back the winners?)  I find it ironic we threw a parade for Fidel in New York City after he did that, and then became enemies with him.

[Edric O]

Castro is certainly no democrat, I thought I made that clear. He is a dictator, albeit a rather benevolent one.

As far as Lukasenko is concerned, give the man a break. He only won two elections, and so far he hasn't done anything ostensibly undemocratic. He has been in power for 10 years - about the same as Chirac (so far), and less than Margaret Thatcher.

And as for that "Union of Socialistic America" thing... just who exactly are you talking about? Hey, I'd wish there was a major political figure in the USA actively fighting for socialism, but that's not the case. (well, Noam Chomsky is a libertarian socialist, but he isn't running for any office)

[Caid Ivik]

I am sure you want Dean to be their president, as well as I'm sure if Chomsky would it be you will move to New York and I'll join Al-Kaida  ;D

[Edric O]

Dean? No, not really. Dean may talk like a radical leftist, but his actual policies are centre-right. I only supported Dean because he was the best of the candidates with real chances of winning, and because he had (and still has) the support of a powerful grassroots movement of ordinary Americans who want to take back their country from the hands of corporations and ultra-capitalist special interest groups.

But if I had to choose a man to be President of the USA, I'd pick Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich.

[Wolf]

Edric, I understand that European politics has gravitated more towards socilaism in previous years, but has this really changed the mind-set with which European leaders approach politics?

[Edric O]

European politics hasn't gravitated towards socialism in the past few years - quite the contrary. During the 90's, several of the major social-democratic parties in Europe were "hijacked" by the right-wing elements within their leadership (see what Tony Blair has done to Labour as the perfect example), much to the dismay of the rank-and-file party members and their voter base.

The result is that huge chunks of the population feel betrayed by the new orientation of the social-democrats, and the stage is set for the creation of new leftist parties.

I suppose you could say that the general population has grown more left-wing, while the political parties have shifted to the right. It's a strange paradox.

[Edric O]

Now, trying to steer the topic back to the subject of Ch

[Caid Ivik]

In fact Haider suffered negative media in Austria as well, Meciar in Slovakia and Orban in Hungary too. However if they would remain longer on the lead I can't believe after 10-20 years it would be so. If we would have Meciar still ruling here then I am already emmigrated to Wien, you know. Of course, this Chavez or Meciar aren't such viles as Lukasenko or Milosevic, but if they would have time ie Milosevic had, they would turn it.

[Edric O]

First of all, any talk about what X political leader would do in a hypothetical situation is just pure speculation. The truth is that you have absolutely no idea what they would do if they stayed in power 20 years, and just because you don't like them, that doesn't mean they're all vile dictators in disguise.

Second of all, how is a democratic leader (like Ch

[Caid Ivik]

But of course, I have no idea about this Chavez, I'm no Venezuelian. But I see there are mass protests against him and it reminds me what we did here in 1998 against Meciar. Such action can't be plotted by foreign powers; if we would blame all strong opposition to be a doll of USA, then what kind of democracy we are?

[Edric O]

I hope you don't mind me reviving an old topic that got pushed down to the 3rd page by Emprworm's furious posting spree...

Now, Caid, I think you're not aware of the real situation in Venezuela because you've only seen the mainstream media's version of it. Don't get me wrong, the media isn't lying at all - they just choose to present only a certain part of the picture. They show the mass protests against Ch

[SurlyPIG]

Do you have a source to support that claim?  It makes little sense to me to hold a protest in support of something... ???

[danielsh]

Do you have a source to support that claim?

[Caid Ivik]

I hope you don't mind me reviving an old topic that got pushed down to the 3rd page by Emprworm's furious posting spree...

Now, Caid, I think you're not aware of the real situation in Venezuela because you've only seen the mainstream media's version of it. Don't get me wrong, the media isn't lying at all - they just choose to present only a certain part of the picture. They show the mass protests against Ch