Christians could have won the crusades

[Sardauker-Kirov]

[quote author=ExAtreides

[Anathema]

well why would we care about Egypt. It was the turks and christians who were the fighting sides during the crusades.

It was the muslims own fault that the crusades happened. If they had not attacked Byzantine, the crusades would not have happened.

?

Saladin was the ruler of Egypt.

You're right about the second part, in fact the Byzanthine emperor requested the pope for aid against the muslims. But the Byzanthines were every bit as (if not more) greedy for land as the Turks, it just so happened that they were the ones who lost in the end.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

All Muslims wanted the land, so you can call it a all out war.

But the Turks were the one who had the headon and claimed the country before them.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

acctually Turkey could have captured Europe, this was prevented with the crusades. this is however not a concrete fact.

the mongols would never manage to conquer Europe. Their empire was only large in size. the governing was poor, it would brake apart no matter what.

how could the Byzantine be more greedy than the turks with land? what did they conquer from the turks?

[exatreide]

The Ottoman Empire started in 1283 and lasted till 1923. The strongest point of Ottoman Power was the late 16th Century to the late 18th Century after that they started collapsing rapidly. As you can see the crusade had no effect, the Turks were in TURKEY anyway fighting the Byzantines during the Crusades. And Crushed them :) Sacking Constaininople in 1453. IT was also one of the first acounts of Cannons being used against Defenders wall. It took 22 Oxxon to carry the largest ottoman Cannon  ;D

[Caid Ivik]

Medieval Turks aren't fully indentical with todays. In those times most Turks lived around Kazakhstan. From then, they parted to many tribes and later nations. For example Tatars, Chazars, Petchenegs, Seldjuks, Usbeks etc. What we call nowadays Turkey means a state, which came up from one Seldjuk sultanate in Kurdistan, were one fanatical warrior named Usman took with his warrior sect the throne and then started to consume others. Byzantine Empire was yet not fully consolidated trough palaiologian renaissance, so many of their latifundia fell to Usman's hands with all its wealth. And money make armies. Last century of Byzantine freedom was also gripped by large taxes for Turks. However, when they started to discuss that Florentian Union and stopped paying tax, they reacted. Constaninopolis was in that time fully sorrounded by Turks...

[Anathema]

They didn't conquer much (if anything) from the Turks, but that wasn't the point- the Byzanthian empire was the continuation of the Roman empire, both of wich had a unextinguishable ambition to conquer and rule every last bit of the known world- and they failed.

About the Mongols, you couldn't be more right! When Kubilai Khan had conquered whole of China, they even adopted the old way China used to be governed, founded the Yuan dynasty, and adopted every other custom until the Mongol rulers had in fact become Chinese.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Byzantine did not conquer much. It was long before it had been conquered. the land was only held after the roman empire was divided. no further land was conquered.

did the ottoman empire last as long as 1923? because the British crushed the ottoman empire during the first world war. and only what is now Turkey remained in 1918.

The Ottoman empire had been fragile and it was acctually strange that it survived all those years. you'd think it would fall apart a hundred years before it did, due to inner turmoil between the different peoples under the leading Turks. Just like a vulture waiting for its prey to lie down and die, the European Imperialists saw the opportunity of more land, and waited for the inevitable collapse of the once so mighty Empire. but they were not successfull untill the first world war.

The crusades had an effect. it weakened the turks to an enormous extent. several more muslims than christians died during the crusades you know.

[Anathema]

Byzantine did not conquer much. It was long before it had been conquered. the land was only held after the roman empire was divided. no further land was conquered.

Good grief, lol.

First of all, the empire never really was divided. During one time there were 2 emperors, seated in Rome and Constantinople, but together they ruled the whole empire. When the west half fell, only one emperor remained. In fact I do have some objections to call them the "Byzanthines", because they resented being called that way themselves and because they rightfully considered themselves to be Romans.

The "Byzanthines" were relentless conquerers. The (in)famous emperor Justinianus' great dream was to restore the empire to it's former glory, and managed to conquer most of Italy

[nampigai]

Anyways, yes, small minorities of Christians or any religion are allowed in the Arab lands. But they MAY NOT attempt to convert muslims or preach their religion outside on the streets.

oh...

[exatreide]

Byzantine did not conquer much. It was long before it had been conquered. the land was only held after the roman empire was divided. no further land was conquered.

did the ottoman empire last as long as 1923? because the British crushed the ottoman empire during the first world war. and only what is now Turkey remained in 1918.

The Ottoman empire had been fragile and it was acctually strange that it survived all those years. you'd think it would fall apart a hundred years before it did, due to inner turmoil between the different peoples under the leading Turks. Just like a vulture waiting for its prey to lie down and die, the European Imperialists saw the opportunity of more land, and waited for the inevitable collapse of the once so mighty Empire. but they were not successfull untill the first world war.

The crusades had an effect. it weakened the turks to an enormous extent. several more muslims than christians died during the crusades you know.

The Republic of Turkey was founded in 1923, The Sultan was exiled in 1918 but the empire still existed in name till 1923.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

would anyone here actually have liked to see that christians won the crusades?

[Caid Ivik]

Well, I see it now. Only about two or three have failed.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

huh? what do you mean?

I talk about the crusades during the middle ages.

I don't mean that for example Britain conquered Jerusalem 11th december 1917. though many of the British soldiers saw themselves as modern crusaders.

[Caid Ivik]

Which of the medieval crusades failed? Only one german, one hungarian and three french. All others, let they were again Turks, Arabs, Moors, Czechs or another, where succesful.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

dunno. I know the first was successful. but they didn't manage to hold jerusalem and that I would like to see

[Caid Ivik]

Crusade is only that attack. Fact they couldn't hold it more doesn't change the fact attack was succesful. English couldn't hold America too, should we say then they were unsuccesful in conquering it? Jerusalem was a colony in far land, it fell because its king has not the power to conquer wider land.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

well they left to few soldiers behind to defend it. only like a few hundreds. most went back to europe. amazing they managed to conquer further land from the muslims with such a small force.

I wouldn't say it was a colony. you are starting to sound like it was muslim in the first place. in this conflict it was first christian. it was the muslims who kept it as a colony.

[Caid Ivik]

It was part of Egypt, when it fell to turkish hands. Then came Franks, which gave to it de facto independence. But if we take it culturally, it was a colony, farland outpost of european culture.