Dune sense of Jesus Christ sacrifice

[SpiceGuid]

Sure i will be flamed, but at least here i am sure anyone can see how the idea is legitimate (i mean inspired by Dune novels).

Suddenly i understood the Dune sense ("God Emperor of Dune" sense) of Jesus Christ sacrifice: the human race survives through social violence, so Jesus Christ had to be killed because so much love was a danger for the human race survival. Then the social system appropriated Jesus Christ love and turned it in a new social system, thus perpetuating the social violence, thus saving the human race.

[Andrew]

Very true. Leto gave his life for humanity.

You could say that peace stagnates humanity whereas war(or chaos) makes us thrive for survival.

Leto's peace was to just bottle up our instinct for chaos, in which we needed a lot to survive to survive the Krasilic (sp?)

[Caid Ivik]

Leto's goal was fully immaterial, to prevent creation of Arafel, what he had accomplished. So his death wasn't a sacrifice, I can't say even planned by him. Maybe predicted and he ran from it.

[TMA_1]

hmmm, somehow I dont think jesus intended to stir violence among the masses...

in fact he didnt, but typical stupid people, they have to turn everything into some political agenda. bleh...

I dont really agree spiceguid, I think that frank herbert didnt really incorperate many christian ideals or figures for possibly these reasons.

As silly as it may sound, he may have wanted to get across a totally different culture, one different from western standards, and since christ is fixed to western culture (that is horrible, and makes me sick to my stomach, because it doesnt make any sense for him to be attached to any culture), frank didnt want to use christian symbols and beliefs.

Another might be because he didnt like christianity, but I doubt this as frank herbert wasent immature in things like this.

or maybe frank wanted to cut christianity to a level that every other religion has, and that because of islam's revivals with many figures in Dune-history, as well as a great push or eastern religions, then christianity is shown to be of no real account.

I dont know fully why frank didnt add many christian sentiments, there are many old testament sentiments, but not many new testament ones.

I think it is a mix of the first and last ideas I mentioned. though they are similar, they have a bit of difference in each, I think frank wanted to make a universe different from our own, and that required taking out christianity, mainly because of eccumenicism. Also, christianity at this time has mixed so deeply with other religions as to almost be nonexistant.

Somehow I dont think that Leto II's death fits with christs death.

[Egeides]

I think that the similarities may come from this interest of Frank herbert about messias.

[SpiceGuid]

Thanks you all for your very tolerant replies.

Somehow I dont think that Leto II's death fits with christs death.

I don't either. I guess no true Christian should agree with my (this stupid) idea. However seems to me love is present in Dune, but in a way that is more dangerous and oppressing yet still generous. May be Christian love is rather maternal, and Leto II love rather paternal. May be Herbert wanted to construct a "paternal Christ". After all Leto II religion is guarded by a female order, whereas Christianism is guarded by males.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

of course a true christian could agree with the idea, but I haven't read GoD, so I can't tell u if I would agree.

[Caid Ivik]

I think there are much more differences between Leto's cult and Christianity than just its guards... But if we want a true messiah of Dune, I would choose Muad'Dib. He merges in himself both jewish/muslim view on messiah as material and political savior, and christian view, trying to salvate our souls. First he starts the Djihad, then he finds his own error and sacrifices himself to once return as a Preacher (if it wasn't just his student), who tries to repair his own errors and save the mankind from its possible effects.

[TMA_1]

I don't either. I guess no true Christian should agree with my (this stupid) idea.

hey dont say that! anybody who contemplates dune is cool in my book! the question is, is it cool for Titus (thats me obviously) to think your cool? hehe

You are right, there is love in the series, much of it actually. In fact the bene gesserit are protectors against such emotion, or at least too much of it. Later in the series though new ideas come to light, and love gains a foothold especially after the death of leto II.

Paul doesnt fit a good view of the first coming of christ, when he died for our sins and was merciful. Maybe there is some sembalence to the second coming of christ, when he comes to redeem those from evil, and kill the infidel and evildoer. This is the ancient jewish (some orthodox jews now days) idea of the daysman, or messiah. Christ though had to fulfill the sacrifice though before he fulfilled the judgement. that is what the christians believe, as I am one of them.lol

[Caid Ivik]

Well, even Preacher had to die to be seen by the others. But of course, we can't say it was same. Muad'Dib, especially in first book, was more like judeo-muslim type of messiah.

[SpiceGuid]

You are right, there is love in the series, much of it actually. In fact the bene gesserit are protectors against such emotion, or at least too much of it. Later in the series though new ideas come to light, and love gains a foothold especially after the death of leto II.

Obviously the mission of Murbella is to reconciliate love and sex. Heretics Of Dune is her sexual initiation, Chapterhouse Dune is her love initiation. The bene gesserit approach is that love and sex are too much destructive and should be kept under control. I am not sure if love in Dune novels can be christian love, i mean christian love should emanate and be generous, whereas love in Dune novels is dissimulated and terrifying. Christian love feeds you, Dune love starves you. Also love in Dune novels is introspective, whereas christian love is communicative. Love is contagious, saving the world by contamination or by quarantine seems two opposite approaches to me.

By the way, i stopped to believe in my childhood the day i asked myself "what do i give to compensate the confort, security and attention that Jesus gives me?". Thus i discovered i was just in self-adoration. To conceive a love that is not appropriation of value is a rare thing. Then girls have tricked me more than once too. Thus i have learned the value of control above love: the real destructive potential in love is you learn the truth about yourself.

[TMA_1]

those are some of the most profound words I have heard on fed2k, that is really wonderful spiceguid. :)