Ten Commandments

[Acriku]

Actually, no they were not. Here's a list of codes made throughout history:

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/histlaw.htm

[Caid Ivik]

As you see, instead of "Earliest legal decision" (?) and 10C, all of its era are created by some ruler. I would like to see how i.e. Assurbanipal followed law of Chamurappi. Era of deities, unlike Jews, which had only one God Jhwh. But anyway, you've accepted at least, that 10C ARE one of historical roots of your law. So they deserve a mention.

[Acriku]

If they do, by simply being one of the early ones, then should we crowd our government buildings with depiction of each law system? Explain how the 10C have been influential enough to be put up in a government building. And while you're doing that, remember that whatever the significance, it is still a very religious symbol and that alone must keep it out of government buildings.

[Caid Ivik]

Why each? Let it on one is 10C, on the other Napoleon with his Code Civil or Jefferson writing the constitution. Religion has no point here.

But what do you think about fall of deitism?

[Acriku]

You think Jefferson writing the constitution is comparable to the significance of the 10C? Heh.

Deism, or deitism? Don't know about deitism, but as for the fall of deism - it hasn't fallen. Maybe officially it has, don't know much on the subject, but I know quite a few deists.

[Caid Ivik]

I think you know what does mean "deity". It was a big difference between god-emperor, which had by law unlimited power and a jewish king, which had to stay with Tora codex.

[Acriku]

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030827_1461.html

;D

[Caid Ivik]

Another victory for the clerofascism!

[Acriku]

Making up words again Caid? ;)

[TMA_1]

acriku, I wouldnt be suprised if you would want to gas christians yourself, and that is not a stretch of the truth.

The seperation of church and state works like this, good grief.lol

The state does not support or push down any religion that exists within america.

The ten commandments are far greater than religious laws, they are some of the first laws ever documented. They are important to us because the magna carta and earlier law structures before it based much of their law on the various commandments in the torah, As well as other forms of law that are important in western society. Through time the courts have morphed with the mixing of english and french systems of law, as well as taking more and more ancient strictures that have existed. The "ten commandments" are an important historical part of our laws. We really do have a lot of influence from the judeo-christian culture. Not only that but you must understand that the jews wrote the old testament as a history, not as a theological book like the new testament. To the jews it was their history. Just like Homer and his epics were seen as history. They had a lot of superstitious stuff inside them, but are looked upon as holding many truths within them. only ignorant people discount everything in the bible, while hypocritically take other "myth" in many places at face value. The ten commandments are historical to the endth degree. They are an important keystone to american society. It is not inconstitutional to present the twelve tables? or to present the laws of hammaurabi? which contain many religious symbolisms as well. You dont deny the ten commandments because they are unconstitutional, but because you ignorantly clump it with religion. Well that is like saying the various works of homer and writers as such are all religious and shouldnt be read for historical or academic value. stop being so biased man, it is so obvious and you are so transparent.

I agree though that the ten commandments should not be forced on people religiously, and people should NOT have to adhere to them. I wouldnt adhere to some of them like keeping the sabbath day holy. See, many christians love to preach a social gospel. They like to use the bible and christ to force change in our culture. There are many people like that on this site. It is wrong to do so though and what they do Is unconstitutional. THe ten commandments are fine in a public place as long as they are looked upon in a historical light. YOu cant just say "they shouldnt be there because you know christians did it to force religion on people." YOu are not God and you cant read people's minds. I have many unbeliever friends who totally agree the ten commandments are fine to be in public places. Just like any other ancient and wonderful legal system could be placed. Just because it is in the bible does not make it unhistorical. The bible itself is a book that was meant to be historical, and some believe it is totally historical. Whether that is right or not, a large majority of historians do take some of the bible for historical truth, just like anythingthey deem as a myth. why dont you calm down with the christ bashing, and maybe you wont have so many bible bashers attack you. even if they do, how is it your place to act like the black panthers during the civil rights movement. they raped it and made even more people of other races dispise black people. it is not what the large majority of civil rights members wanted. They didnt like extremists, and I dont like them either. You are one of them.

[SurlyPIG]

"The "ten commandments" are an important historical part of our laws."

And that is not what is portrayed by this monument, for there are no other indications of any other historical parts of your laws. The stone mural at your Supreme Court building is a much more appropreate example of a historical monument. It shows the 10, amongst many other parts or people of the history of law and order, including, among others, the prophet Mohammed, Caesar, and Confucius. This monument was completely inappropreate. What conclusion is one to draw when they see that sitting out side of the JUDICIAL building. A reasonable person would assume that indicating or preaching respect or adherance to those laws would favour their chances in court. Could you imagine what refugees would think of that monument, having fled religious opression in thier home countries only to find more of it in the supposed "Land of the Free."

[Acriku]

acriku, I wouldnt be suprised if you would want to gas christians yourself, and that is not a stretch of the truth.

Did your parents let you become like this? What a stupid comment.

The ten commandments are far greater than religious laws, they are some of the first laws ever documented.

While they are really old, they are very religious laws. You can't deny that without thusly professing an ignorance of the content of the ten commandments.

Which commandments?

They are important to us because the magna carta and earlier law structures before it based much of their law on the various commandments in the torah

While the MC does mention God a lot, I find it difficult to understand how the Magna Carta were based on the law of the commandments found in the Torah. Unless the Torah contained commandments that ordered the divine rights to kings wrong and that the power of aristocracies should be limited, that is.

As well as other forms of law that are important in western society.

Such as? The english common law system? Established two centuries before the spread of christianity, when the Saxons settled in England.

Through time the courts have morphed with the mixing of english and french systems of law, as well as taking more and more ancient strictures that have existed.

Could you be more specific? Case names, system of law names, etc.

The "ten commandments" are an important historical part of our laws.

How so? Two commandments come to mind that are similar, the lie, murder and steal commandments, which were not new to that era in which they were created. The other commandments refer to the religion itself, and have no similarity to our laws, many of them actually contradict our laws.

We really do have a lot of influence from the judeo-christian culture.

Such as the attempts to ban abortion, to eliminate evolution from the curriculums, to illegalize sodomy, to refuse marriages to homosexuals, our Pledge, and our motto. Not necessarily good influences, as you can see.

Not only that but you must understand that the jews wrote the old testament as a history, not as a theological book like the new testament. To the jews it was their history.

It was written as a history text, sure I can understand that, but it is still a theological text because it centers around the YHWH god.

Just like Homer and his epics were seen as history.

Did Homer believe in his writings? I can't answer this, but if he didn't then it cannot be compared to the OT as they believed in what they were writing. We already view texts like The Illiad as mythology, but we do not for the OT, and therein lies a difference.

only ignorant people discount everything in the bible, while hypocritically take other "myth" in many places at face value.

Egads! Who are these people? What are these myths they take at face value?

The ten commandments are historical to the endth degree. They are an important keystone to american society.

Hmm. No, I don't so. You have read the ten commandments, haven't you? I mean, anyone who has can see a direct contradiction, and some inconsistencies, in many of the commandments with our laws, right?

or to present the laws of hammaurabi? which contain many religious symbolisms as well.

Are the laws of hammurabi meant to push religion on other people? Is the religion of Hammurabi seen as a religion or as mythology?

You dont deny the ten commandments because they are unconstitutional, but because you ignorantly clump it with religion.

What's this about denying? Anyways, the ten commandments are very sacred to a lot of people, and very religious, why just look at the first commandment: 1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. [http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm] So who is the ignorant one? Exactly.

Well that is like saying the various works of homer and writers as such are all religious and shouldnt be read for historical or academic value.

No, not really. The works are considered mythology by everyone (as far as I know).

The ACLU states,

[Acriku]

I agree though that the ten commandments should not be forced on people religiously, and people should NOT have to adhere to them. I wouldnt adhere to some of them like keeping the sabbath day holy. See, many christians love to preach a social gospel. They like to use the bible and christ to force change in our culture. There are many people like that on this site. It is wrong to do so though and what they do Is unconstitutional.

Glad we can agree on something.

THe ten commandments are fine in a public place as long as they are looked upon in a historical light.

Can they really be seen as such? They are extremely religious, held by millions in the country, and have little significance with our law system.

YOu cant just say "they shouldnt be there because you know christians did it to force religion on people." YOu are not God and you cant read people's minds.

Look here sunny boy:

"The Ten Commandments monument, as the Chief Justice made clear both at the unveiling ceremony and at trial, is a granite reminder to Alabama judges and justices and all other state citizens of the ultimate sovereignty of the Judeo-Christian God over both the state and the church," Judge Thompson said in his opinion that accompanied the ruling.

Thompson said Moore's intent in having the monument installed thus violated the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which prohibits governments from endorsing or promoting a religion.

"The Ten Commandments monument, viewed alone or in the context of its history, placement and location, has the primary effect of endorsing religion," said Thompson, who was appointed to the bench by former President Jimmy Carter.

::)

I have many unbeliever friends who totally agree the ten commandments are fine to be in public places. Just like any other ancient and wonderful legal system could be placed.

Your point? Without stating their reasons, it seems you're just trying to say "Look! Unbelievers like you disagree with you!" Whoop-die-friggin-doo, it isn't going to change my mind.

Just because it is in the bible does not make it unhistorical. The bible itself is a book that was meant to be historical, and some believe it is totally historical. Whether that is right or not, a large majority of historians do take some of the bible for historical truth, just like anythingthey deem as a myth. why dont you calm down with the christ bashing, and maybe you wont have so many bible bashers attack you. even if they do, how is it your place to act like the black panthers during the civil rights movement. they raped it and made even more people of other races dispise black people. it is not what the large majority of civil rights members wanted. They didnt like extremists, and I dont like them either. You are one of them.

::) What an ignoramus.

[TMA_1]

duh... lol

just because the old testament centers around god makes it theological? you are so two dimensional man. YOu think in the now, and have no sensability or sensitivity to think how people thought thosuands of years ago.

during that age, people saw the Gods like they saw a tree, or a stone, or anything natural. TO them God was a Reality. Not some theological idea or spiritual phantom that quasi exists.

You never answerd my question that most of the ancient histories passed down to us are riddled with the spiritual. Mention of major dieties effecting a nation of a certain people, a God of agriculture destroying a years crop, blah blah. You seem to point to the jews as the only superstitious people. good grief.lol you only use the silly word you did at the very end of your post because you didnt want to think, which is to be expected.

The french and english systems merged with things concerning actual court justice, I will have to restudy myself in the matter before I can give you exact info, but if you would look for yourself you would find that I am right, that is a guarintee. not that it means much to you.

The judeo christian value system has been the driving force of america from it's foundation. Even the founding fathers who were largely non christian reeked of judeo christian thought. for crying out loud why dont you read some of their journals and letters? I did not say that the judeo christian system of thinking is better or worse than any other system, but you added your own bias to that, and you admit it which is kinda amusing.

You stated that we cant have the ten commandments as an influencer to our system of government because our government is so contradictary. Well here, let me tell you a little secret. America is based around a constantly changing body of people, of laws, and all other statutes. They dont stay there forever like other governments because the creators of this government based it largely on reason, and the scientific philosophy. So generally after a couple hundred years things will change. ::)

You forget that some jews wrote these commandments thousands of years ago. (though I believe it is from God) these people wrote it in the intent of making a stable community. Religion and the way of life mixed, you tend to seperate them because you have not had any sort of religious training. I remember when talking to you, you told me you only went to temple one or two times, and really never read the bible. that places you on a level of ignorance in judeo christian theology right there, and ruins much of the arguments you make, but that is a different issue. You dont understand that the ancients didnt seperate religion and the state. We have grown in a society where taht is one of he most important factors in our society. You are basing all of your arguments on your own ethnocentic ideals.

You never even responded to my statements. I would respect it if you would respond to them, if not then you have no business posting aobut what I have said. I guess the whole idea of ignorance has gone over your head? beh, why dont you act more like ACE, he actually listens. you are so filled with hate and have such a hard heart that you will never listen.

ACE

See, I do agree that many people want to place these kinds of monuments all around in public places as a sort of spite against the government. They want to shove their beliefs onto others and by doing so they are just as wrong as those who wish to take all sorts of historical keys to our nation away from us. Just because it is a jewish written code, it is branded in prejudace that it is "religious" and spiritual. You cannot seperate the ten commandments from that, and that is a really hard thing to get over.

Like I said to acriku, the ancients did not think anything of mixing religion and the state together. It is a historical monument because it is displaying how a people thought thousands of years ago. and what they thought happens to be apart of our heritige in most of western society. I agree that this kind of thing shouldnt be put into schools, and shoudlnt be battered into peoples minds like so many christians do. You see though these monuments are in court houses, and other places of government authority. Why take away apart of the history of america? whether you like to admit it or not it really is, no matter how big or small it fits into our society. I mean look at places like the un building in new york. There is a place there where they quote a part of the psalms. It beautifully talks about how the jews believed that war would end when God came back to them. DO we believe that? no, but dont you see that it is still beautiful poetry nontheless? DOnt yous ee that you can place spiritual importance on the ten commandments, but in reality they are just moral codes? at least to the ancient jews, and to those who believed so in our american past. See, it is like taking away great liturature from school libraries as the are doing now. Just because some contain politically incorrect statements, they are taken away. By doing so though you take away apart of our heritige and apart of something meaningful, whether you believe in the religiousness of it or not. that is my opinion anyway. I mean you can reason ACE, and you must see the basic logic behind my thinking?

[Acriku]

duh... lol

just because the old testament centers around god makes it theological? you are so two dimensional man. YOu think in the now, and have no sensability or sensitivity to think how people thought thosuands of years ago.

You're jumping into conclusions, sir. I didn't mean to say theological, as they were pretty hardcore in their beliefs, and the book disallows any questioning. Now that we covered the confusion, just because they wrote it as if it were true, that doesn't keep them from making shit up. If I think I'm a prophet of the Burrito god (granted I'm a little screwed up in the head), I will tell others of this great god orally, passed down to the generations, and finally written down with the accumulated stories.

You never answerd my question that most of the ancient histories passed down to us are riddled with the spiritual.

That's not a question.

You seem to point to the jews as the only superstitious people.

Where in the hell did you get that? The jews are superstitious, christians are, hell a lot of people are. Just a bunch of irrational-believers.

The french and english systems merged with things concerning actual court justice, I will have to restudy myself in the matter before I can give you exact info, but if you would look for yourself you would find that I am right, that is a guarintee. not that it means much to you.

Why should I research such a broad subject, especially when I don't know where to look that you're concerned with here.

The judeo christian value system has been the driving force of america from it's foundation.

Really, what value system? You're not really specific in these posts for some reason.

Even the founding fathers who were largely non christian reeked of judeo christian thought.

Well, why not? Christianity and the denominations thereof were very popular, and ceremonial deists probably interacted with them everyday, like Jefferson. You'll also have to be more specific on this "thought" - what is it, and what makes it judeo-christian?

I did not say that the judeo christian system of thinking is better or worse than any other system,

Neither did I say you did. Are you and I reading the same posts? Jesus H Christ.

You stated that we cant have the ten commandments as an influencer to our system of government because our government is so contradictary. Well here, let me tell you a little secret. America is based around a constantly changing body of people, of laws, and all other statutes. They dont stay there forever like other governments because the creators of this government based it largely on reason, and the scientific philosophy. So generally after a couple hundred years things will change.

Um, I don't think they made it a law forbidding the usage of the Lord's name in vain, or a law forbidding any work on Sundays, or coveting a cool-looking car? So, what has changed? Also, if the system is allowed to change without losing the core values, and in the end contradicts and is inconsistent with the ten commandments, you can logically come to the conclusion that our country was not founded on the commandments, as shown in the Alabama courthouse.

You forget that some jews wrote these commandments thousands of years ago. (though I believe it is from God) these people wrote it in the intent of making a stable community. Religion and the way of life mixed, you tend to seperate them because you have not had any sort of religious training.

Actually, I know fully well of the lifestyles of Judaism. I was a fricking jew for 12 years of my life, I think I would know. It can be a lifestyle without the religion, and is a satisfying lifestyle I would say, so stop jumping to conclusions, sir.

I remember when talking to you, you told me you only went to temple one or two times, and really never read the bible.

What the hell are you talking about? Stop making things up. I never told you that, as I can remember the hundreds of times (every saturday and sunday for 2 years) of going to the synagogue, reciting prayers (my favorite was Adon Alom [sp?] and the modern variations we sang it to), and watching the children videos of the torah.

that places you on a level of ignorance in judeo christian theology right there,

No, what you just said before places you on a level of ignorance I choose not to elaborate on.

and ruins much of the arguments you make, but that is a different issue.

Not really, seeing as you were making it all up, and I've been reading the NT for a half a year now.

You dont understand that the ancients didnt seperate religion and the state.

And look at the theocracies today. The theocracies in the past would never survive in such a future with a huge population.

We have grown in a society where taht is one of he most important factors in our society.

So what of the nonreligious? They are not of this society, but of an abnormal freak society?

You never even responded to my statements. I would respect it if you would respond to them, if not then you have no business posting aobut what I have said.

What posts are you reading?! I have words coming out of my mouth right now that shouldn't be said on these forums. Jesus H Christ.

They want to shove their beliefs onto others and by doing so they are just as wrong as those who wish to take all sorts of historical keys to our nation away from us.

You still haven't proven how it is a historical key to our nation.

It is a historical monument because it is displaying how a people thought thousands of years ago.

Do you view it solely as a historical monument and not a religious one? 'Nuff said.

See, it is like taking away great liturature from school libraries as the are doing now.

It is nothing like that. No one believes that a monster called Grendel exists and a man called BeoWulf slaughtered him, but people still do believe in Judeo-Christian texts, and they are nationally-recognized religions. A very big difference, not to mention the intent behind posting such a religious monument, which I quoted in my post earlier.

Just because some contain politically incorrect statements, they are taken away.

Politically incorrect? Oh you mean the one against our freedom of speech, and the few against our freedom of religion? They are not politically incorrect, they are wrong.

Respond to my posts like a man, TMA, and not just bitching about how hardhearted I am.

[SurlyPIG]

See, I do agree that many people want to place these kinds of monuments all around in public places as a sort of spite against the government. They want to shove their beliefs onto others and by doing so they are just as wrong as those who wish to take all sorts of historical keys to our nation away from us. Just because it is a jewish written code, it is branded in prejudace that it is "religious" and spiritual. You cannot seperate the ten commandments from that, and that is a really hard thing to get over.

Indeed. I'm not saying that the Ten Commandments should be removed from everything public because of their religious implication without exception. The exception should be when there is appropreate historical value, ie Moses holding two tablets in a large mural of the history of law in the Supreme Court building. I'm not saying that they should be ripped off lawns and out of museums where they are appropreate, just where they are misplaced, such as the Alabama judicial building.

Like I said to acriku, the ancients did not think anything of mixing religion and the state together. It is a historical monument because it is displaying how a people thought thousands of years ago. and what they thought happens to be apart of our heritige in most of western society. I agree that this kind of thing shouldnt be put into schools, and shoudlnt be battered into peoples minds like so many christians do. You see though these monuments are in court houses, and other places of government authority. Why take away apart of the history of america? whether you like to admit it or not it really is, no matter how big or small it fits into our society. I mean look at places like the un building in new york. There is a place there where they quote a part of the psalms. It beautifully talks about how the jews believed that war would end when God came back to them. DO we believe that? no, but dont you see that it is still beautiful poetry nontheless? DOnt yous ee that you can place spiritual importance on the ten commandments, but in reality they are just moral codes? at least to the ancient jews, and to those who believed so in our american past. See, it is like taking away great liturature from school libraries as the are doing now. Just because some contain politically incorrect statements, they are taken away. By doing so though you take away apart of our heritige and apart of something meaningful, whether you believe in the religiousness of it or not. that is my opinion anyway. I mean you can reason ACE, and you must see the basic logic behind my thinking?

I see where you're coming from, but it really is a small part of your history, and by placing it in stand-alone monuments like the one in Alabama, it's endorsing that one part. IMO, it's not a historical monument if it has no historical context. And the monument this thread referred to had no historical context whatsoever. It wasn't surrounded by similar things, it had no caption explaining its alleged origin, how old it is etc where it came from etc. IMO, the monument wasn't even a religious monument. It was theistic, certainly, but it had little religious context either. Standing alone, it's a short list of laws. That's all. And it was sitting in front of a building of law, contradicting what is supposed to be in practice within that building, and that's a mixed message, which isn't acceptable.

[TMA_1]

I must say, I totally agree with you in this case ACE. it seems that this monument was created for sinister reasons. It really is pretty shallow, and holds really no value at all. Now there are monuments in Washington dc, where you see moses with the commandments. It is a beautiful work of art though, with actual meaning and value to our nation. It is beside buildings of law and it is made to show a connection between one of the first works of laws we know of, and of our laws and justice now. Especially when it was made and there wasent really info of older laws compared to the new testament, as history held many more enigmas than it does now. anyways though I get the feeling that the ten commandments which we are talking about have bad intentions. the reason being is it was created by fundimentalists. The same kind that would make children obey the ten commandments in school. Most of them are great, but I wouldnt want my kid to follow the rules of the sabbath.lol

[Caid Ivik]

What I don't like on religiosical threads is that my opponents rather ignore my points just because they are "unfitting" their antitheistic parade. I've asked you about three times, Acriku, about your view on historical value of 10C, proposing you my point of view, but you ignored it, and now hypocritically you dare to say to TMA a crap like this:

"Respond to my posts like a man, TMA, and not just bitching about how hardhearted I am."

"The "ten commandments" are an important historical part of our laws."

And that is not what is portrayed by this monument, for there are no other indications of any other historical parts of your laws. The stone mural at your Supreme Court building is a much more appropreate example of a historical monument. It shows the 10, amongst many other parts or people of the history of law and order, including, among others, the prophet Mohammed, Caesar, and Confucius. This monument was completely inappropreate. What conclusion is one to draw when they see that sitting out side of the JUDICIAL building. A reasonable person would assume that indicating or preaching respect or adherance to those laws would favour their chances in court. Could you imagine what refugees would think of that monument, having fled religious opression in thier home countries only to find more of it in the supposed "Land of the Free."

Religiously free land should be such, where you can put a cross or halfmoon anywhere you want. If Mohamed or Confucius would make a a codex of law, let it is even on judicial building. Simply, atheists are the worlds biggest religious oppressors. I can't wait until we'll have to write in biography about "religious understanding" like in times of socialism, which rememberance is, by the way, very popular on west today...

[TMA_1]

its understandable caid, acriku just likes to speak, and never listen. he likes to take in, but never give out. He tells me to say all the things he wants to hear, and if I say he is hard hearted, he tells me I am not speaking like a man, when he was the one that told me that I am a fool, and that my ideas are completely stupid.

[SurlyPIG]

Exactly, TMA. Exactly.

Caid, put a sock in the poor-religious-guy-opressed-by-infidels song. Nobody is going to buy it, not even your own kin. You know as well as I do the only reason you approved of that monument was because it promotes your religion. If it were replaced with a statue of Mohammed with Islamic laws you'd be among the first to call for its removal. The monument was placed there two years ago buy a cruscading judge, who is now under investigation. It was NOT a long-standing historical monument. It was completely inappropteate and it was removed. End of story. If you want to put a monument on your private property then go right ahead. It can be Jesus or Buddha or male genitalia for all it matters.

[TMA_1]

hmm, I trust you ace and take it that you agreed with me there. not sure though.lol

what most people dont realize is that america did have some minor influence from islamic codes, but even many islamic peoples admit that their codes come largely from the jewish legal codes. They are almost identical and they admit a kinship in their faiths. See, there would be nothing wrong with it at all, and I think that people should find respect for laws of other cultures. America needs some humility, and it needs some understanding of other cultures. we lack that bigtime. I just think though that a monument of the ten commandments makes more sense than a monument to islamic codex's. It would make more sense than making a monument to the eightfold path, which really isnt religious but philosophical. I mean I totally get where you are coming from ACE, but dont you think it makes more sense to have monuments that contain something that means more to us as an influencer? For example, I think that monuments to the 12 table codex's of rome would be more fitting in a hall of justice than the ten commandments, as it has a bit more influence on us. I mean the culture of rome was drentched within european culture when rome fell. They basically became a semi poor replacement of rome and it's culture. It added Romes laws with many european tribe's own laws. From there the catholic church which was largely roman added it's stamp of culture upon the people. Adding various christian, "pegan" morals and standards taken from both christianity and rome.

basically I am saying that there is al ot of history in our laws and standards. we have taken from many many cultures, even northeast native american tribes. which heavily influenced us suprisingly. We have monuments about native american influences in america, and most of those come from religious meanings. For example the laws of the native american confederacy in the northeast which influenced our constitution and formation of confederacy came from a man a few hundred years before called "the great law maker". He came out of nowhere and was actually connected with moses by many native americans. We are so rich and diverse in our culture and legal codes that it makes sense to take from many ideas and celebrate them in monuments. Judeo christian laws and standards are a huge part of that, and it seems more of an historical thing than anything else. I have said before though that you have to be careful because many christians try to put those things into public buildings with secret (obvious to most) intent to try and christianize people. that is obviously wrong.

[Acriku]

What I don't like on religiosical threads is that my opponents rather ignore my points just because they are "unfitting" their antitheistic parade. I've asked you about three times, Acriku, about your view on historical value of 10C, proposing you my point of view, but you ignored it, and now hypocritically you dare to say to TMA a crap like this:

Your posts make no sense! I can understand that because english isn't your first language, so if I can't understand a word you're saying, I either ask for clarity or ignore it. TMA cannot say the same for mine.

[TMA_1]

hehe, see ACE? acriku cannot read a post, he jsut comments on it. He takes but never gives. Thanks acriku for making my point. Post something valuable, or dont post at all. Otherwise you are just being your typical self and giving completely worthless information.lol

The simple fact taht you are degrading one of the most intelligent guys on this board because you cannot face an issue directly shows how absolutely silly you are, and if you werent apart of landsraad, people might actually tell you how funny, no, how pitiful the things you say are.

Answer his question acriku, or dont post at all.

[Acriku]

TMA shut the hell up, you know you're just doing this to make me mad, but it isn't working. I just got back from work, and I'm a little tired. Now, I have no idea what Caid is asking, because he makes no sense. It's really peculiar trying to decipher his posts sometimes, so if you can translate maybe that'd work out. If not, shut the hell up and mind your business. Also, notice how you aren't even replying to my posts, only attacking me like a Me-Too.

[Caid Ivik]

Is it too hard to understand? TORA IS THE FIRST LAW ABLE TO TOUCH A KING! Like US Constitution.

Exactly, TMA. Exactly.

Caid, put a sock in the poor-religious-guy-opressed-by-infidels song. Nobody is going to buy it, not even your own kin. You know as well as I do the only reason you approved of that monument was because it promotes your religion. If it were replaced with a statue of Mohammed with Islamic laws you'd be among the first to call for its removal. The monument was placed there two years ago buy a cruscading judge, who is now under investigation. It was NOT a long-standing historical monument. It was completely inappropteate and it was removed. End of story. If you want to put a monument on your private property then go right ahead. It can be Jesus or Buddha or male genitalia for all it matters.

Bah, and you've just hit your ass with this kick. Computer I am writing on itself is ornamented by a halfmoon. This is the view of antitheist: you think that like YOU are against every religion, I have to be as well! Some people, to their pity, are searching for mirrors, and when they see no, because their dumbness or blindness is specifical only for them, they create own...