Perfect? Perhaps not.

[Acriku]

I've heard from most theists that their god is perfect. Perfect! My what a claim. But have they really thought about it? I wonder. Let me show you why I think no god of the christian/catholic/jewish faith is perfect.

Perfection. Ultimately the final frontier. But is it reachable? Is it existant? Questions questions questions. Questions that can't be answered, as far as I know.

But let's push that aside. Let's talk about perfection. Perfection is, to me, completion. You are complete if you are perfect. Completion implies that nothing is needed, no desire to want something, you have everything. With that said, how can a complete being desire to create a universe? That would imply an incompleteness, a being without his universe. In other words, imperfection. That is my reasoning for why no god of the aforementioned faiths can be perfect.

Now, let's discuss why people say their god is perfect. Because I can't put it any other way, I think it's because they believe in this god and make him to be the best thing ever. And perfection makes it really really "best". Like a little kid looking up to his big brother, making him out to be a lot more than he really is. It's human nature, as usual. Now, what do you have to say?

[Sardauker-Kirov]

Nobody is perfect, if god was perfect then he had created the ultimate race.

But his supposed "Ultimate race" corrupted.

Now, god also said that humans are his 'only' creation.

So those aliens outside, that are flying above our head are also animals that god created?

My, those 'animals' must be very smart then.

God also 'created' different people on earth, so we are "NOT" a single race.

Strange how alot of cultures has signs of borrowings from other cultures and similiarities.

Or 'someone' somehow edited the Holy book. (Chance is quite high)

Humanity can only achieve perfection if they all unite without leading wars into Satan's embracing arms.

[Acriku]

Something tells me you haven't read my post, or just pushed it aside...

[Sardauker-Kirov]

Something tells me you didn't read my post very well. :)

Just stating my opinion.

[Acriku]

The point was to tell me your opinion in context of my opinion...

[nemafakei]

If the universe and God are separate, god cannot be infinte:

For if they were separate, then all-that-exists would include both God and the universe - which is greater than just God, so Go would not be infinite, since he would not include everything.

Therefore, assuming God is infinite, this universe is a part of God. Is this universe perfect? Well, if we assume that such a thing as sin exists and is defined as opposing God, then part of God opposes himself, and is inconsistent with the rest. Hence, God canot be both perfect and infinite.

[Acriku]

According to the texts, god is infinite (Psalm 139 I think).

[Egeides]

Questions, questions, questions... that as far as I know can be answered. Logic shows that some answer is true while others aren't. If something is true, thus what would be totally true would be perfection. Add to this Plato and you get the platonician trinity: Beauty, Truth, Good.

About perfection = completion, well buddhism wouldn't say that... I mean by this that perfection is not to already BE on the top of a mountain be rather to be perfectly GOING to this top. To exist perfectly thus does not mean that you do nothing to reach a certain goal. Perfection is not only about BEING perfect, but also about ACTING perfect.

I've heard from most theists that their god is perfect. Perfect! My what a claim. But have they really thought about it? I wonder. Let me show you why I think no god of the christian/catholic/jewish faith is perfect.

Perfection. Ultimately the final frontier. But is it reachable? Is it existant? Questions questions questions. Questions that can't be answered, as far as I know.

But let's push that aside. Let's talk about perfection. Perfection is, to me, completion. You are complete if you are perfect. Completion implies that nothing is needed, no desire to want something, you have everything. With that said, how can a complete being desire to create a universe? That would imply an incompleteness, a being without his universe. In other words, imperfection. That is my reasoning for why no god of the aforementioned faiths can be perfect.

Now, let's discuss why people say their god is perfect. Because I can't put it any other way, I think it's because they believe in this god and make him to be the best thing ever. And perfection makes it really really "best". Like a little kid looking up to his big brother, making him out to be a lot more than he really is. It's human nature, as usual. Now, what do you have to say?

[Acriku]

Egeides, I just got too confused with what you said. Being perfect is being complete. Now, do you disagree with this or will you just bring up more Buddhism? Never cared for Buddhism anyways, nor for Plato. Plato's idea of perfection is his own philosophical contraption, but I myself wouldn't hold much to it.

As to total truth being perfection, what is truth? How does one being be true? To exist is to be true, so says me ;) But again, how does one being be true? What does that mean?

[Dude_Doc]

How come I can feel a big deja-vu in this topic? Well, here we go again.

Completion implies that nothing is needed, no desire to want something, you have everything. With that said, how can a complete being desire to create a universe?

Why exactly, have "desire" have to do with completion? He created the universe because He could. He used His power. It is a question of will.

Now, let's discuss why people say their god is perfect. Because I can't put it any other way, I think it's because they believe in this god and make him to be the best thing ever.

Creating a universe with lifeforms is not "the best thing ever"?

[Acriku]

I don't remember discussing this before, so I have no deja-vu.

Why exactly, have "desire" have to do with completion? He created the universe because He could. He used His power. It is a question of will.

Obviously, without the universe he was incomplete. He had to want to do it (will), implying imperfection. Just look at my signature. If you are complete as a whole, and you create something, you weren't complete.

Creating a universe with lifeforms is not "the best thing ever"?

The being has to be the best thing ever. In all possibilities, any thing could have created the universe, but creating it doesn't make someone the best thing ever.

[Egeides]

Egeides, I just got too confused with what you said. Being perfect is being complete. Now, do you disagree with this or will you just bring up more Buddhism? Never cared for Buddhism anyways, nor for Plato. Plato's idea of perfection is his own philosophical contraption, but I myself wouldn't hold much to it.

As to total truth being perfection, what is truth? How does one being be true? To exist is to be true, so says me ;) But again, how does one being be true? What does that mean?

About "what is true", I don't need to know what is true, I only need to know that there is a truth. From there, you can define perfection as being what is true (whattever what that is: you'll have to try to get closer to it).

About Buddhism and all... Being perfect is not being static. Being complete doesn't mean to be static. So perfection isn't static, it is moving and creating.

[Acriku]

About "what is true", I don't need to know what is true, I only need to know that there is a truth. From there, you can define perfection as being what is true (whattever what that is: you'll have to try to get closer to it).

Not what is true, but what is truth - noun, singular.

Being perfect is not being static. Being complete doesn't mean to be static. So perfection isn't static, it is moving and creating.

Then you are not complete! Complete is like a closed system. It's probably not going to get anywhere on arguing what perfection is, on the other hand, because its existant is impossible to comprehend.

[Phage]

Why exactly, have "desire" have to do with completion? He created the universe because He could. He used His power. It is a question of will.

But He had no reason to. Are you saying it just randomly happened....God just randomly decides to do things?

I don't see how a Being which randomly does stuff is perfect. Will God just randomly destroy us some day?

Also Imperfect means eternal and unchanging, i.e. absolute. However the act of creating things would demand motion and hence change. Making God a temporal and hence imperfect being.

[Caid Ivik]

God is considered as a perfect being, because we think He created this whole universe. With all its attributes, even perfection in our view. But it may be true, God have to create something, what could name, define Him. He is perfect, but only thanks to His universe. So, to sum up, as He defined everything by His own existence, which can lead only to creation, He can't be else than perfect.

[Dude_Doc]

Then you are not complete! Complete is like a closed system. It's probably not going to get anywhere on arguing what perfection is, on the other hand, because its existant is impossible to comprehend.

Perfect is defined by us humans as "complete". There is many other things we human have defined as what we think is true, as we do with scientifical facts. How do we know that when something is perfect it doesn't have will or desire? You nor I can't go further than this because there is no such thing as "perfect" in this universe if you mean by human defenition.

But He had no reason to. Are you saying it just randomly happened....God just randomly decides to do things?

Yes... ?

I don't see how a Being which randomly does stuff is perfect. Will God just randomly destroy us some day?

God is not a computer. If He decides to destroy us one day, or make us all have wings so that we can fly, or make cars run without oil, or give me a computer so that I can play Deus Ex 2 without any serious problems, then He will.

[Acriku]

Dude_doc, I could also say that how do we know perfection exists, and ruin the entire argument there, but that would get us nowhere. But let's act as if it does.

If He decides to destroy us one day, or make us all have wings so that we can fly, or make cars run without oil, or give me a computer so that I can play Deus Ex 2 without any serious problems, then He will.

But you just said he does things randomly. Where does the will to decide arrive?