Political spinoff from Church Unification

[Caid Ivik]

Actually, what I had in mind was helping to build a single, unified World Government and bringing peace on Earth...

Yes, my words!

Long live the Imperium!

[Edric O]

No, not the Imperium. The Republic. In which all members are equal, as opposed to some being the serfs of others (like in present-day globalization).

[Caid Ivik]

Word "republic" has a very wide meaning. Res Publica Impera isn't Res Publica Libera. Anyway, global state wouldn't last too long without some central commands. Countries (or future confederal parts) must first BECOME equal, that means in lawfulness and production, then we can consider your utopia.

[Edric O]

Precisely, comrade, precisely! :)

The unification of the world is still very far into the future. Maybe as far as 1000 years. And it can never be accomplished while the countries of the world are under the grip of capitalism...

[Acriku]

And communism can Edric? Please....

[Edric O]

I thought you said politics bored you, Acriku...

And yes, communism can. In fact, if you know anything about communism, you know that it has been, is, and always will be an internationalist movement. There is no political movement more commited to bringing the nations of the world together in peace than communism. Hey, all you need to do is just look at our motto!

"Proletarians of all nations, unite!"

[Acriku]

Economics is a different issue ;) I'm taking an AP class in economics next year so I'll have more to go on.

[Edric O]

Good! But if you're taking classes on capitalist economics, don't forget to read Capital to see the other side of the coin. ;)

[Acriku]

Oh no, it's on every economic state available, that's why it's AP - it covers much more ;)

[Caid Ivik]

I would say any "planned" form of unification won't be succesful. Capitalism can just show the unification beneficial, rational, and then most nations will try to join the common course. Look at today's process called globalisation: it is just economical now, but I believe it's eve of political counterpart.

[Edric O]

Acriku, if you can get unbiased classes on communism in America, then I have the highest respect for your school! :) But with Bush and his lovely Patriot Act, I doubt that somehow... Anyway, be sure to let me know what they say about us commies! ;)

Caid, the only thing globalisation has achieved is to completely screw the poor. Globalisation is just the 21st century version of good ol' colonialism.

[Caid Ivik]

Who is "poor" for you?

[Edric O]

Oh, I don't know... the one billion people suffering from malnutrition, perhaps? Or the 24,000 people a day who DIE of starvation, maybe?

[Caid Ivik]

I don't call countries like Rwanda symbols of globalisation...

[Edric O]

ALL countries are greatly affected by globalisation, Caid. See, that's why it's called globalisation...

[Caid Ivik]

But it is too simplicistic to blame one act of all problems. I would say 90% of wars are caused by nationalism, that's opposite of globalisation.

[Edric O]

Of course! But I never said globalisation causes wars. It doesn't.

The problem is that globalisation causes poverty, starvation and a great deal of human suffering in general, as well as making the gap between rich and poor wider and wider.

[Caid Ivik]

How? Economical globalisation brings capital to poorer countries. People have work, well, it's true they aren't payed like here, but from money they can buy food. Political counterpart enables easier flow of charity and better enviroment for democracy.

Now your turn.

[Edric O]

Economical globalisation brings big western corporations to poor countries. The corporations hire local workers for ridiculously low wages and keep them working in slave-like conditions, thus making immense profits. Soon, the corporations buy EVERYTHING in the poor country, so the workers have no choice but to work for them or starve to death. It is slavery, pure and simple.

Meanwhile, in the developed countries of the west, workers lose their jobs because corporations would rather hire people from poor countries, so they can pay their workers less.

As for political globalisation, it is just another name for colonialism.

[Caid Ivik]

Actually, colonies were founded for economical purposes. Military marched there just in next phase, when natives found what does the word "nationalism" mean. About your view on foreign investments, well, you see it rather antiutopical, but I understand, every commie has such arguments. Look at medical care. Or education. Or, perhaps, political stability, freedom of speach. See what was Japan or Singapore in 1945, and what is it now.

[Edric O]

"Every commie has such arguments" - Yes, and too bad you can't refute them.

There are no strict rules of how to form colonies. Every colony was/is conquered in a different way.

And YOU, of all people, mention medical care and education? Oh, the irony! We communists have been fighting for every human being's right to free medical care and education for 150 years! You capitalists were the ones who forced people to PAY for those things, thus condemning the poor to suffer and die of horrible diseases because they couldn't pay their doctors, and forcing their children to stay ignorant and have no chance in life because their parents couldn't pay for their education!

This reminds me of a quote:

"When capital and the ruling classes apologise for: Colonialism, the 14 hour day, class priviledge, the 7 day working week, children in coalmines, the opium wars, the massacre of the Paris Commune, slavery, the spanish-american war, the boer war, starvation, apartheid, anti-union laws, the First World War, trench warfare, mustard gas, firebombings, the invasion of the Soviet Union, the Armenian Genocide, Chemical Weapons, Fascism, the Great Depression, Hunger Marches, Nazism, the Spanish Civil War, Militarism, Asbestosis, Radiation Death, the Massacre of Nanking, the Second World War, Belsen, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Racism, the Mafia, Nuclear Weapons, the Korean War, DDT, McCarthyism, blacklists, thalidomide, the Rape of the Third World, poverty, the arms race, the electric chair, environmental degradation, the Vietnam War, the military suppression of Greece, India, Malaya, Indonesia, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama and Turkey, the Gulf War, trade in human body parts, malnutrition, organized crime, the heroin and cocain trade, the destruction of the Ozone Layer, exploitation of labour and the deaths of millions of communists and trade unionists in this century alone, then - and ONLY then - will I apologise for the errors of socialism."

- Unknown

[SurlyPIG]

Well the lies were thick in that one...where to begin?

First of all, socialists have to pay for health care and education too, in the form of high taxes.

That quote is just a joke. Capitalism is responsible for WWII? Nazism? The mafia? ROFL. Seems as though that argument is a whole lot of frantic finger pointing as opposed to, you know, something partially constructive.

[Edric O]

The quote was not meant as an argument, Ace, merely a reminder that capitalism is nowhere near the spotless angel you make it out to be.

As for education and health care paid by higher taxes: What the hell are you trying to say with that? That it's better to just give these things only to the rich and keep the poor ignorant and miserable instead of making them public services?

[SurlyPIG]

Not at all, I am for a well-managed, two-tier system. Education in a Communist state would never be anything more than information manipulation. If I want to run a class on, say, basic computing, and the state deems that it is not worthy of funding, does that mean I can't do it? I should be allowed to venture the class myself if I want to. Why should I have to answer to a far-away beaurocracy for dispensing information? As for health care, a two-tier system would be preferable as long as both tiers are complete and affordable. My country is one of three places in the world where it is illegal to pay for your health care. You know what the other two are? Cuba and North Korea. As long as the systems are managed well, the private, faster system will take a load off of the failing public system.

[Caid Ivik]

"We communists have been fighting for every human being's right to free medical care and education for 150 years!"

We payed taxes in times of communism. Very big taxes. Half of money vanished in bureaucratic process of alocation, others in ineffective pharmaceutical production. On the west, it was a work of social democracy, but that word usually doesn't sound you very known. Altough it was you, who made this statement:

"There are such things as "liberalism" and "social democracy" in this world.

"

Well, thanks to know, 9.95 on the left...

"Every commie has such arguments" - Yes, and too bad you can't refute them.

"When capital and the ruling classes apologise for: Colonialism, the 14 hour day, class priviledge, the 7 day working week, children in coalmines, the opium wars, the massacre of the Paris Commune, slavery, the spanish-american war, the boer war, starvation, apartheid, anti-union laws, the First World War, trench warfare, mustard gas, firebombings, the invasion of the Soviet Union, the Armenian Genocide, Chemical Weapons, Fascism, the Great Depression, Hunger Marches, Nazism, the Spanish Civil War, Militarism, Asbestosis, Radiation Death, the Massacre of Nanking, the Second World War, Belsen, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Racism, the Mafia, Nuclear Weapons, the Korean War, DDT, McCarthyism, blacklists, thalidomide, the Rape of the Third World, poverty, the arms race, the electric chair, environmental degradation, the Vietnam War, the military suppression of Greece, India, Malaya, Indonesia, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama and Turkey, the Gulf War, trade in human body parts, malnutrition, organized crime, the heroin and cocain trade, the destruction of the Ozone Layer, exploitation of labour and the deaths of millions of communists and trade unionists in this century alone, then - and ONLY then - will I apologise for the errors of socialism."

- Unknown

How easy to blame someone all problems of the world... Do you know what is most fascinating? That you blame someTHING, some philosophical view, which doesn't exist as usual, but was only created by same person, which made a system against it. Paradox, isn't it?

EdricO, say me, do you want to refute all those problems you've written and add some to clean the mess, or will you spare me from that boring work, which other rational democrats must do every day?