NeoDevilbane

Why?

How do I set it as such?

I'm very proud of you Dante.

Just noticed it. http://boardserver.superstats.com/list.html?u=MRAnderson&f=1

But it really is, 100%, exactly the same as the Alan Smithee VHS version that's been available (albeit, in discreet circles) for years now?

What's the story about?

OK, so you are questioning his morality. Just double-checking. That has nothing to do with your view.

But then we're not talking about writing. Dante is turning it into a discussion of morality.

I didn't realize bitter 18 year olds were such excellent judges of men old enough to be their grandfather, yet they know nothing about.

I mean no offense, but that pretty much says it right there. I don't believe Frank would have ever actually gone as far as saying (or even thinking), "Blast! That encyclopedia is apocryphal!" but I don't believe he ever would have used it as a backstory/database for whatever he would have written beyond Dune 6. I'd trust that whatever sentiment he would have held toward the encyclopedia, Brian Herbert may (or may not have) been privy to. But it's his call. Honestly, if the notes and whatnot didn't conflict with the encyclopedia, I can't think of very many reasons why Brian wouldn't have included McNelly "in the mix" of his prequels... what would have been the harm?

I haven't picked up my copy yet, but it does seem to sport a nice tin-esque box. Looks very sharp. I understand the extended version is -- verbatim -- the extended "Alan Smithee" version that's been floating around on pirated VHS and home-made DVD for years now, which I've seen. My question is, is the extended version now on official DVD cleaned up and cut "smoother"?

Movie was outstanding, absolutely. And the encyclopedia is excellent reading material (even FH said he enjoyed it), absolutely. And you're right, FH encouraged open interpretation of his work.

No, but am curious about it.

So Brian Herbert is lying about his dead father in this, too... *sigh* I give up. Frank Herbert endorsed many things. He endorsed Dune bedsheets, Dune action figures, all kinds of Dune stuff. You guessed it, he endorsed the Dune movie and even worked heavily with Lynch ... oh look, it's raining on Dune! Is that canon? Absolutely not.

Depends on what's your preference, really. There's no "right" answer. If you dig chronology, of course you'd go the "Legends of Dune" trilogy, the "Prelude to Dune" trilogy, then Dune 1-6. If you aren't interested in the Jihad except as a sidestory, maybe do the "Prelude to Dune" trilogy and then Dune 1-6, the "Legends of Dune" trilogy as an afterthought. Otherwise, if you want to take full scope of Frank Herbert's work first and foremost, of course you'd want to go Dune 1-6, then everything else. I wouldn't worry too much about the Dune Encyclopedia. It's not official, it's been denounced by the Herbert Limited Partnership, and only goes from Dune - God Emperor of Dune anyway. You'll just confuse yourself when you start reading the prequels/Legends/Dune7-8. Read it if you want, but take it with a grain of salt.

Looks OK to me, but I kinda liked the U.K. one better even if it just depicts a short scene.

Good to see you post here, Mahdi. You have always had a pretty good head on your shoulders, this is no exception. There is. Very observant. True, but all KJA was doing was just quoting the artist, Bob Eggleton, not coining the term at anyone himself (except about the Amazon one-starrers toward the end). Word of mouth, absolutely. It's a fact of life seen in everything from the entertainment industry to the culinary and hospitality industries. If you are referring to "Paul of Dune" and the Junior and Young Adult novels they've slipped mention of in interviews, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Less is more. In their case... much more. :) My thing is, it's good they're there for people who want them. They're not pretentious, they're reasonably engaging reads, and they expand a universe you probably are really fond of. I think KJA was basically equating "talifan" with "trolls." Not at all, I understand people that don't like the prequels. That's fine, I know they're very debatable. Who I'm talking to is the conspiracy theorists who insinuate -- some, directly -- that BH is lying about his dead father's outline. If some of these people also happen to not have enjoyed the prequels may be the origin of this, but is really beside the fact. If I do some shoddy writing, is my *character* and *morality* in question? It's absurd, plain and simple. Again, I'm not/never have arguing about the prequels -- I personally enjoy them, but understand if a portion of the fandom does not. I'm not about to start waving the KJA/BH fan and even begin to attempt to win that battle. Absolutely. And another line altogether that seperates people who don't like a product with people who call a person's character and morality into strong, strong question in imaginative (read: conspiracy theory) fashion. I'd call this pretty close to troll-hood, if not transcending it. I think a better example of at least one part of what I'm talking about would be something like : You hate pop and hip-hop, R&B, yet you absolutely love Beethoven. Tomorrow, Beethoven's final symphony is discovered in a vault in Cairo and turned over to his latest descendant and estate under relatively believable circumstances (bear with me). It's decided it will be unveiled to the world. It's also decided that the symphony will be premiered by having... Alicia Keyes play it to a live audience, having it simultaneously broadcast across the world. Is it truly better for everyone at large to never hear the symphony at all? There's going to be a ton of Beethoven fans who would love to at least hear what it would have been, even if the man himself isn't around to play it himself ... should these people be denied it? I'm not trying to convince anyone to "like" anything. Never have. I'm merely challenging the conspiracy theorists to better substantiate themselves, which they've succeeded so far only in dancing around. Well, it's part of an ongoing franchise that includes various versions of a theatrical film, two mini-series, numerous videogames, bedsheets (hey, I used to have some!), a card game, and so on... but your point is well taken.

I can see that, but personally I think it's less a concern of "Are they leaving things out?" and more a concern of "Are they adding a lot of their own things into the mix?" That's a reasonable concern, one I share.

If a moderator feels it's appropriate to consolidate threads/topics/opinions into a single thread, then so be it. The prequels are really kind of a non-issue. I mean, they're not bad writing, but it does seem like it takes them three books to do what FH could do in a single novel... maybe not even that much. If Brian Herbert wasn't in the picture at all and KJA just somehow "Acquired" the outline for Dune 7, I'd say that would be more than a little dubious and probably call "B.S." on that right with you. But Brian Herbert is in the picture, and you're suggesting he's lying about his dead father's outline. That requires a big leap of faith to buy into that conspiracy theory, a leap of faith supported only by -- from what I can tell -- an admittedly substantial size of the readership of the prequel novels generally agreeing that the prequels are "ehhhhh." Yes, you're right. We may see a lot of the writing style of the prequels in Dune 7/8, that is to be expected -- we can certainly hold KJA/BH accountable for that much. I don't see why. I mean, the people that want to finally read the climax of FH's books can do so at last. The people that don't want to know can just not buy it. The prequels are very debatable, I agree. True, and I'm sure BH knows that. It's a measure of good faith from him (I'm assuming it's coming from him) that offers us a glimpse at "the proof" ... what did you expect, BH to mass-mail all of Dune 7/8's conspiracy theorists VHS tapes of FH saving the outline to the floppies? Just wanted to clarify what we were talking about is all. Realistically, the prose could be terrible, horrible. But beneath the possible stink will be Frank's "detailed" "complete" outline for the plot. Or... god forbid... FH's outline and FH's notes for Dune 7 may be adequate inspiration/guideline enough to mine some pretty good writing out of them as far as the prose goes. Either way, we're getting FH's outline realized -- this is a good thing. That's a very selfish notion. I think the majority of Dune fans would at least like to know what happens, even if KJA/BH may not end up channeling FH entirely in Dune 7/8. Again, I'd like to read the outline and notes, too. Now or later is fine. Hm, I don't believe so, but feel free to prove me wrong (I could be). They had plans to do the Jihad after the prequels as far as I recall, plans which were then slightly tweaked when they read the notes/outline for Dune 7/8 -- KJA/BH started talking in interviews and such about how, after we read the Legends trilogy and then Dune 7, we'll understand the need to put those out first and how it'd all kind of tie together or something. We'll see. Yeah, exactly. I think that's accurate, but we can only speculate on the "why." Or conspiracy theorize, as seems to be the order of the day. Who said? You did for one, by implification that BH is lying. If we're assuming BH is lying, by consequence, we have to also believe the whole story about the safety deposit box is made up, that they're lying about FH's notes/outline having anything that ties threads from the Legends trilogy to Dune 7/8, and so on. In other words, you can't just say they're lying about the one thing without the whole house of cards becoming a house of shit... that seems like a grand scheme to me. Yeah... stay quiet and don't argue with 18 year-olds spreading conspiracy theories based on nothing. Gotcha.

Seems like, visually, it's got a bit of the mini-series look to it.

*sigh* You're crushing me... you said you wouldn't "bother" with me anymore, but here you go. You either believe Frank Herbert left the "detailed" "expansive" and "complete" outline to Brian Herbert, or you believe Brian Herbert is lying and you are a sad, sad troll that I would challenge to substantiate yourself any better than (essentially) "Well... well... they wrote some bad prequels, so they must be lying about the outline!" Look how many say the opposite, look how many posts certain people post about Duncan Idaho and Face Dancers... who cares, what's your point? Because I point out the sillyness of the conspiracy theorists that thrive here?

Learn who's hunting the Honored Matres, for one, and why. Huh? Where did you hear that? The outline was very first mentioned, as far as I know, in the afterword kind of a thing at the end of "House Atreides," and it was mentioned found in a then-recently discovered safety deposit box... they've never changed their story, if that's what you're implying. You're probably thinking of the general notes and passages and missing/cut chapters from the Dune novels FH never put in a deposit box that they've mentioned many times as having as resource material on the Dune prequels so far. I don't, but "detailed," "expansive," and the key word of "complete" seems to imply something very close to that. Hey, that may not end up being far from the truth... Mentat_One's "review" is proven as bunk, so we'll have to wait and see what really happens.

Just the facts, ma'am. Would you please? I'm not the young whipper-snapper I used to be. *wheeze* Then you'll agree it's a good thing for Dune 7 that they'll be led by the nose by a "detailed," "complete," and "expansive" outline by Frank himself. While you can argue the writing may not end up being spot-on to FH's, the plot itself will be all FH's... no reason we can't expect it to be complex, detailed, philosophical, mysterious, spectacular, and many more things. At any rate, you're entitled to your opinion and many would agree with you. Personally, I found them all enjoyable reads. To paraphrase a friend, the new books aren't brilliant, but they are well written, a lot of fun and - here's the key - absolutely unpretentious. The new Dune books are all stories based on Dune without any blatant attempts at subtext, allegory and the like. They do their darndest to emulate the style of the original Dune and use it to tell stories. Clear, but you can't really lump all 6 together under one neat, tidy category. They're very different novels. Reading the original Dune and then diving into God Emperor, for example, are both marvelous experiences, but comparing the two is like comparing water to wine. We have no reason to believe otherwise without, A) Accusing Brian Herbert of lying about his dead father's outline, B) Accusing Brian Herbert of lying about there being any safety deposit box, C) Accusing Brian and Kevin, two respected sci-fi writers on their own merit, of collectively coming out and lying to the fandom about the former(s), D) Believe Brian Herbert is consciously taking a dump on Frank Herbert's legacy by participating in the deceit. To believe that, Mr. Dante, requires a lot of cynicism and general assholery. Hm? You're being too obtuse for me again. :) I agree with you, I would like to read the outline (we're not talking about notes) someday as well and hope they do plan to release it eventually. But not now, and certainly not until at least a short time after all of Dune 7 has been released in novel form. I mean, I'd be too weak willed and compelled to not read over the outline... and that would drastically demystify things for when the novels would be released. It'd be like, if you're a huge Star Wars fan, reading the entire shooting screenplay "for Star Wars: Episode III" weeks before attending the premiere. While you'd still be wowed, much of the impact and wonder would be lost. I think you're getting your notes mixed up. There's both, 1) An outlined, detailed, & expansive outline for Dune 7 on a floppy, 2) Some notes further detailing Dune 7 on a seperate floppy, 3) Boxes of notes, missing chapters, etc., not left in any safety deposit box that both BH and KJA had access to before even beginning "House Atreides." In these notes they found material for the "House" books and the "Legends" books, and helped BH complete the "Dune Concordance" he completed. And the "Legends" thing is a bit fuzzy, I should ask KJA to clarify things. I could be mistaken, but from what I understand, FH had, for some time, drawn up the background and very most general details of the Butlerian Jihad for a possible novel. Then McNelly stepped in and actually wrote a chapter or two (this much I've heard as fact, I believe) off his own notes and the like, but nothing really happened as far as a collaboration. Whatever the case, some wheels were turning prior to FH's death, so it's not unfeasible there was some intention of somebody doing a Butlerian Jihad novel. Youch! Double youch! You're cracking me up. I'm the paranoid one? I don't have delusions of some kind of grand scheme by BH/KJA to come up with some elaborate cover story involving lying about a safety deposit box, an outline, and misleading Dune fans all over the world. Could be. Trying to set the record straight is something dubious? Maybe I'm being obtuse and dense, but I'm not seeing where you're coming from there.

Lately. Look back over the past 3 or so years bringing up the Dune 7 outline... you'll find at least a few posters pretty much flat out saying just that. Then you're a sad, sad man. Brian in the blog : "I did not undertake this task quickly. In fact, I delayed tackling any new Dune projects until 1997, eleven years after my father's untimely death. If I had wanted to maximize my income from these books, there was a big "window of opportunity" in the first couple of years after he passed away. For many reasons, most of them having to do with the integrity of my father's literary legacy, I did not continue the series when it would have been the most financially profitable." It was relevant to the blog... what was the problem?