Major_Gilbear

Well, being an air unit does make it immune to most weapons fire, and if you don't have to reload, that makes it pretty good. If kiroves had enough ammo to fire twice before thay had to return, nobody would build them, despite the great armour and the overpowered damage of its bombs. Similarly, if the Kirov was a ground unit, if could be attacked by just about everything in the game, so the threat would again be lessened. Also, I appreciate your comments on scouting but I should point out that later in the game it can be very difficult to scout inside a base to see what/where all the buildings are. That's why flyers are useful; fly one over an enemy base, and you have your info - even if you lose the flier, it's reasonable value for the knowledge gained. On another note, I meant to mention upgrading. Upgrading cannot work like it did in Dune2, because although the TS upgrade logic survives in RA2, it is hardcoded in terms of what you can "attach" to an upgrade. The important bit for this mod is that an upgrade cannot act as a prerequisite. That means that I cannot upgrade a WF and gain access to new vehicles for example. I was hoping to keep upgrading in the game though, but by having upgrades for Windtraps, Turrets etc instead. The called-in Ornithopters could quite easily be an upgrade to the Outpost (requiring the HTF as a prerequisite).

Yeah, that was the sort of balancing I had in mind... I wanted to allow them to be sent into unexplored areas too, but then I think that should remain the preserve of Trikes/Quads, so maybe not. As for units announcing when they are created, it does get a bit annoying! Plus, I use the Kirov example as the 'Kirov Rush' is usually late game, and even if it is announced, it is nearly impossible to stop. You see, cost-for-cost the Kirovs can take waaay more damage that is fair, and thus even if they are slow, are hard to shoot down. Now, as this is late game, there will be ground troops to distract the AA units like the IFVs, and the Kirovs will usually have a fairly clear run until they get about halfway anyway. I'm not saying this is an unstoppable tactic in every situation, but it is seriously hard to counter without heavy losses. Tactics like the Kirov Rush as as hated as Grand Cannon Spamming or playing against Yuri...

Rocketeers are a pretty good parallel - thanks. :) As for amassing any flying units, that is true. But I do remind you that it has always been difficult to make true fliers useful without being overpowering in CnC/Dune games. In RA1, MiGs were blatantly overpowered, and in RA2 massing Kirovs was fairly unstoppable in the long-game. By the same token, The Dune2 Ornithopters, the RA1 Yaks and the Orca craft in TS were expensive and not very useful. I agree that there is a reasonable amount of AA available early on, but it comes down to a base defence and two units - one of which is infantry. In Dune2 there a unit cap, and so most of the time infantry was dropped in favour of siege tanks and rocket tanks. I'd like the Ornis to be more useful than just being scouts or relegated to hunting harvesters/stragglers. I would like to make all units useful at all levels wherever possible, and there also won't be a unit cap anymore. This means that there is potentially a lot more AA to shoot down Ornis, and as a result I think that they can be beefed up a bit. I am still undecided as to their armament. HE rockets as Dune2, or MGS, AP rockets, cannons, lasers, bombs...? Again I had considered differing armaments based on house and on whether they were called in from off-screen or player-built.

Ah, but you're fogetting one important detail: control. Because players will have control over Kirov-like units, Ornithopters would be far too powerful if players started to mass them, especially considering the very limited AA in the game. Remember that in Dune2, players were unlikely to have more than three ornis in play at any one time, and that as they couldn't be controlled, they got shot down fairly fast without acheiving much. That resulted in most players not building them (right?). To make it fairer, you could have the Ornithopters dock with a building to recharge, and that would also limit their numbers. To do that, Harrier logic/behaviour is better suited. The use of them as a SW was a nod to it's successor, Dune2000, and I wasn't really sure if ppl would prefer that to controllable Ornis. Afterall, having them called in from off-screen is the only suitable way that they can be directed without being player-controlled, and again they are limited in power. Funnily enough, even though some of the old helicopter/helipad logic was removed/hacked to make the Harriers in RA2, the twitching of air units can be easily re-enabled through the use of the tag "CurlyShuffle=yes"... That tag seems to have survived from TS intact.

@ VidiWare: Thanks for the offer of hosting space ;). As for the Ornis being both regular and SW, it could be done. The regular Ornis could have MGS or Rockets, and the SW ornis could have bombs (for example). I do want to keep it Dune2 tho, and the Fremen will be controllable in the mod (so more useful/powerful). Still, I think that as a SW it'd not be overpowered. Ordos Saboteur would be like the Dune2 one, except that he would be able to disguise (more useful that way). Probably give them a build limit of two as well, partly as that is how it was in Dune2, and partly because they can be very powerful if massed... @ Nema Fakei: That sort of logic can be attached to buildings that are 1x1 cells in size, as well as units that are classed as vehicles. The planes are not controllable, and their range is limited. Therefore, unless it is to be some sort of base defence or similar, I dobt it'd be that useful. I mean, if I set the range to cover the screen, it would just be sending wave after wave of free Ornis at the enemy; if I set the range shorter it might not reach the enemy's base at all!

@ MCV: I think that feature was removed in RA2. That is to say, you can have planes like Harriers but if they are not airport bound, they cannot be ordered to redock with the airpad. I think several mods have tried to solve this, but none have done so yet (to my knowledge). This means that if they are to reload at a building, then they need to be like RA2 Harriers. @ VidiWare & Nema Fakei: Hmm, I do agree that it is a bit plain/bright, but that is the problem with this strip of colours in the palette; they are always too bright and that hides detail. I can certainly add camo, but that isn't how the launcher was either in the pix or ingame. Similarly I can make the launcher grey, but I'm concerned that it would be both too dark and also not look unified - like the Rocket pods are not part of the vehicle? I'll have a go though and show you what it looks like. @ VidWare: You want me to add parabombs and paratroopers? Or do mean that having the Ornis called in from off-screen would be okay? I have struggled a bit about what to do with Ornis. I think that as Harriers they would work, but that as SuperWeapons they would as well. Since both Ordos and Atreides had them, I thought about either giving them different types, or giving everybody the same type and Atreides an extra one. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, what's the limit for uploading to a post? I have a 1.5mb animation of the rocket launcher so that you can see all the detail, but I can't upload it... Somebody's gonna tell me it is half a mb now, right? ::)

Well, I have been busy working on things that are either not working how I want, or that aren't really something I can show off in a screenie (yet). Still, I thought I'd show you another unit in the meantime; the Rocket Tank. I'm not really very happy with this unit, and I'm not quite sure why. I have remade it four times already, but it still doesn't look quite right to me. Anyway, see what you guys think...

If the rocket dies, the mond-control is broken. Plus, the I doubt the victim would be controllable if mind-controlled by a rocket (assuming a rocket can be coded like that). If the rocket spawns a "Terror Drone" as it dies so that control of the enemy is possible, there is also the problem of destroying a unit with a mind-controlling Terror Drone; it emerges when the unit is destroyed. I think as far as the Deviator goes, that'd be a bit weird...

Hmm, mind-controlling Terror Drones would be possible I think, yes. But to have Terror Drones fired from another unit, no. Besides, apart from the big rockets (like the V3, Dread Missiles, etc), I understand that rockets are considered by the engine as being neutral. That means that anything spawned by them would not be player-controllable. Similar problems arise with the infection/Brute conversion logic - only the YR Mutator has that conversion logic keyed to convert to the owning side; emulating that logic on anything else though results in the creation of ownerless units. And the big rockets result in the same as above, it is just that the game knows they are a special case for the purposes of having AA firing at them and for having correct remap on them.

Well, the third Trike's guns are both meant to suit the large pictures and look more like MGs than light cannon too. Also, I can make barrels either 1x1 (like Trike 3) or 2x2 (like Trikes 1 and 2) in cross section. I do know what you mean though, and I may have (yet) another go at them. The Raider will probably have a different gun configuration anyway, though I suppose I could use the armoured cockpit version to represent it... I take your points regarding Starports, but I wondered if by letting Houses acquire units that they otherwise wouldn't be allowed, it would defeat the point of having the limitations on the Houses to begin with? Afterall, in Dune2 it made sense firstly because in missions Starports were only available later on and secondly because there was a limit on how much you could buy from the Starport at any one time. Since in this mod Starports will not have the old "random purchasing price" function (not supported by RA2), they will only act as a prerequisite. As Starports are available early on in the tech-tree, it also makes these units easy to get hold of early on too. Ordos Deviators will not deviate as they did in Dune2, again because RA2 won't support it. Either I can have them permanently control enemy units or have them cause enemies to go berserk and fire on their own units randomly (which you wouldn't be able to control and would last only a set time). This means that Deviators will always Deviate enemies in a favourable way and not give an advantage to a third House by accident! Personally I favour having it make enemies go berserk. This is like the Chaos Lightning in EBFD and also to me seems more realistic than mind-controlled units...

Quick update: Whilst working on the next unit, I had yet another quick idea for the Trike. I've added a new model of the Trike (Trike #3) to the comparisons, and you can see it below. Better than #1 or #2, or not?

Thanks :) Each House will have a different Scheme, so yes, Ordos Raiders will be in the colours shown in the larger images. That specific camo pattern always reminded me of WW2 British Caunter, used in the first half of the North African campaign... Will do, especially if ppl ask questions/make suggestions here; I do want to use features available in RA2, but I also want ppl to enjoy it like the original Dune2!! ;) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, something else that your comments on the Tikes have reminded me of is the issue of non-House units. That is to say, in Dune2, Ordos for example could only build Raiders. With the building of a Starport though, normal Trikes could then be bought - usually cheaper than Raiders too, even if they weren't quite the same. What I wanted advice on is whether the Starports should still allow access to such units (ie, Ordos would have access to both Raiders and Trikes for example), or should they still only be allowed what would normally be buildable (ie, Ordos can get cheaper Raiders via Starport, but no normal Trikes)? Secondly, if a House captures a foreign House's Warfactory (or Conyard etc), should they be allowed to build their units? And if so, should those units be in the original House's colours or the new House's? For example, Ordos capture a Harkonnen Warfactory. Should they be allowed to build Missile Tanks and Devastators? And if so, should those tanks be in an Ordos colour scheme, or in Harkonnen colours? Your thoughts would definately be appreciated on this!

Flags eh? Hmm, not a bad idea that... I may just release two MIX files afterall! ;)

Hehe, yeah I can, but that still doesn't solve this: Otherwise, I wouldn't have even suggested it as a choice. Of course, I could have had green units with some areas of remap for Ordos, red units with some areas remap for Harkonnen, etc. But the colours available for this in the voxel palette are really sucky... :(

Thanks :). It wasn't meant to be GDI-ish, but now you mention it, it does a bit doesn't it? Hmm. So far I have: Glass Canopy = Nema Fakei, Mr Flibble(?) Armoured Canopy = Caid Ivik This is still undecided as far as I'm concerned, and I will refrain making a choice until others have said something, or had more to to at any rate. Hehe, you kinda tipped my hand with this one, as I had intended to make the Ordos Raider Twin-gunned! This is to further differentiate it from the ordinary Trike. Otherwise players might assume it was the same vehicle but with a different camo pattern... Still, the Ordos Trike could have heavier/lighter/different guns modelled on it if everyone else thinks that the regular Trike should have two guns?

Well, the tanks will look bigger and the Seige Tank and Devastator will be much more solid anyway. Anything over 45L x 45W tends to overlap on at least some facings anyway, and you'd be surprised how chunkier voxels can look bigger even though they share the same dimensions... I like slightly bigger voxels TBH, and two things always struck me about light vehicles in Dune2: First, the Quads and Trikes are big and seem to have crews of 2-3. Secondly, even if they are big and the glass is armoured, they can still be light units quite easily. I saw/see them as more akin to wheeled light tanks than actual armoured cars. Like the old Soviet BRDM-2 in that it doesn't much resemble a car as a light combat unit (but unlike the HMMWV which does look more like a traditional armoured car for example). Dunno if all that makes sense to ppl! :P Anyway, I can make the glass canopies smoother if I use RA2 normals instead of TS normals. But that means painting 244 normals facings instead of 36, so I had counted on leaving that to the end when all the units were finalised in their design and size ;)

So, I take it you like the schemed units more then? I redid the Trike (again!), and now I'm not sure which style I like more. I think the glass bubble canopy looks better, even though the larger pictures showed an armoured cockpit; the rest of the Trike is as the large pictures in both cases though. Anyway, I've attached both below, and I'd appreciate others' views on which they prefer. Also, I'm surprised that after over 200 views of this topic, nobody has much to say on the game issues I identified originally... :-

Programmers' Matra. Found on Wiki :P

1) EBFD Cost you your marriage? Riiiiight... 2) EBFD is cheap to buy, retails for about

Yeah, that's Remap. Thing is, if you are playing Atreides, and you happen to select purple as your team colour, how will other players know that you're Atreides and not Imperial? They'd have to click on or scroll over your units to find out, and it isn't as visually obvious as it could be. The alternative is to give each House a fixed scheme with limited remappable areas, and then the units are recognisable irrespective of what team colour is chosen (like EBFD). I covered the two options in point {5}. Full remap is more true to Dune2. Full remap is also confusing as hell when playing skirmish/MP! So which to choose?

Yeah, I agree remap is needed, but I still don't like it much. I usually keep it to a minimum and put it somewhere visible. I am pretty old-school with Voxel editing actually. I use Will's original Voxel Editor and paint TS normals by hand (though I can paint RA2 normals too). I find that the newer proggies add too much extraneous stuff that slows their speed down whilst not adding enough that is *needed*. I do have them and use them, especially for the occasional specialist function like copy-pasting a layer, but rarely. Still, I'd rather that there were new editors being worked on and released than not. As for differing schemes, it doesn't take that much longer, but I will finish all the Atreides' units as "standard", and then add/recolour for the other two Houses.

Thanks :D Remap is the blue band under the cockpit canopy. The quad is still a bit WIP as the canopy needs better normals and a few other tweaks. I wanted to lighten the remap a bit as well, but contrast of blue against the canopy glass isn't the greatest... Shoulda shown it with a red remap I suppose! Mind you, I never liked remap all that much anyway. BTW, I had the cameos, sidebars and units colour-schemed to fit each House. Atreides units would be in sand-beige, Ordos in caunter and Harkonnen in either a dark brown or a grey. The cameos and sidebars would be kept in a retro-style as shown above, but also themed a bit in colour. This is in keeping with some of my musings in point {5}. What are people's thoughts on this? Good or bad? If scroll up to point {5} you can see what my arguments/thoughts on this were and see if you agree.

Hmm, well one of my unit ideas failed, so I may as well show you a pic now. If I do get what I had planned working, I will update with an animated Gif. Untill then, here's the Atreides Quad. (Terrain is temporary BTW, I'll be replacing that too).

Ooh, new posts! ;D @ Vidiware: Yes I can post some images, but I'm trying a few ideas out before I launch into making everything; I've done that before, and it tends to kill off enthusiasm for finishing when you're having to keep redoing things... :-[ As such, I'll try and post something up over the next couple of days (hopefully with an animated Gif so that you can better see my intentions...). As for the helipads/RA2 Harrier method of Ornithopters, that can be done. In fact, the old Dune2 GFX had a landing pad drawn on the Hi Tech Factory, and I suppose I could use that as a base. I'd probably allow two units to land on it though, as it wouldn't be cost-space effective to build the Factories otherwise. I didn't really need to solve the Carryall problem, as it can pick up whatever vehicle-type units you want it to. The two issues with carryalls are that {i} they can pick up ships and drop them on land and vice-versa (so I understand) because you cannot limit what it is allowed to transport. In addition {ii} they cannot be (easily) automated like they were in the Dune games - i.e. they behave like the Advanced Carryalls in EBFD. Anyway, if it were a problem, there is a workaround that is less pretty too; treat it like the RA2 Nighthawk, and determine what it can carry and how much by its passenger toggles. Issue {i} isn't a problem as there are no naval units. Issue {ii} isn't a huge problem, it just means that players need to micro a bit more. @ Nema Fakei: Well, actually, I won't be limited to the RA2 palette for SHPs as I think I'm gonna be using the Rock Patch. These means a custom palette for every building if I like! Voxels are limited to RA2 colours though. I don't have a problem with voxel-making either, and am happy to make whatever I need from scratch. This means I won't need to touch the Grizzly Tank in any way ;). Finally, I did consider your infantry solution. And similarly for other situations in other mods. But there is always one major problem IMO: cost effectiveness. If one of the classes becomes "better value" than the other, then the inferior unit(s) will not get built much in competitive play. If they are both the same "value" then the earlier unit will get used in preference. For example, if for the same total build time and cost, four light infantry with MGs are just as good as two Troopers with MGs, then the light infantry would get built as they are available sooner and won't be outdated by the Troopers later. If one becomes "better value" than the other in any useful way, then the other won't get built much. Another example of this is the Trike and the Quad in Dune2; once the map is mostly explored, the Quad is better value than the Trike and nobody builds the Trike anymore. If the map is small(ish), they may be no need for the Trike at all. If Ornithopters can scout the map for you a bit later anyway, there is no good reason to build the trike at all. So the Trike and Quad need to have different properties to keep them from making each other obsolete. @ Mr Flibble: The grenade idea is pretty good actually. Hell, the MG/Grenade might work as-is. The grenades would be like the old unguided rockets anyway. The only downside to not having the Rockets is that Troopers fire at Ornithopters, and grenades don't really fit that bill. Hmm, more suggestions needed I think? Also, yes, different weapons can have different ranges, even if they are mounted on the same unit. Also, they can be given different warhead types and properties so that they treat categories of targets differently. @ Caid Ivik: RA2 is similar, but not quite the same. In my experience weapons in RA2 can only affect certain target types if you want them to alternate between different targets. So an MG must do no damage to tanks if you want a cannon on the same unit to fire at tanks, and the cannon must do no damage to infantry if you want the MG to be used against them. Generally: Being me (no known cure I'm afraid), I have also missed something obvious in my consideration in the second post of this topic. Cloning only works on infantry, so the options apply only to infantry where cloing logic is concerned. The rest of the for/against arguments still hold though, so I've left them.

@ Nema: Poor choice of words, I accept that. @ Vidiware: Well, what sort of CnC style would you suggest/like to see for the Ornithopters? There were at least three different ways that fliers were represented in RA2, and each has the good and bad points... As for GFX, I will be remaking (or have done) everything from scratch. One main reason is that the Dune GFG are all aoblique, whereas subsequent games have been isometric (until Gens anyway). This means that there will some difference anyway, and though I wanted it to stay close to Dune2, I did also want to take advantage of the better engine.