With Only Themselves to Blame...

[Caid Ivik]

''I wouldn't be so sure about the usefulness of pure marxist dichotomy in this problem. The problem with Greece seems to me to be in consumption, not in government's unproductive investments.''

The problem is Greece's consumption? What part of Edric O's post did you read exactly, apparently it was the imaginary part that speaks about unproductive government investments.

EdricO - Between WW2 and 1980, the rich had agreed to transfer some of their wealth back to the workers, in order to stimulate demand and avoid social unrest. After 1980, they replaced transferring with lending. The rich still gave some of their money back to the workers, for the same reasons as before, but now they expected the workers or their governments to pay them back (with interest). This strategy has now reached its inevitable end. The demands of the rich to be paid back can only be met through massive cuts in the living standards of the workers. In the US, where so much debt is individual, these cuts often come in the form of people being kicked out of their homes because they can't pay mortgages, or having to drop out of college, or being unable to afford health care. In Greece (and much of Europe), where the government took on a lot of the debt, governments are the ones who can no longer afford to pay back the rich and must therefore cut basic services.

My point is, if you at least tried to read my post as a whole, that a government must stimulate country's production to rise if it wants to ever think of paying back. EdricO says here the government tries to pay it back by lowering consumption; my view is they shouldn't even create such a welfare system if they can't afford it. When you do, you're making debt slaves from your children.

And this is the fault of the Greek on the street how? Might want to re-familiarize yourself with the topic.

Where did I say it is?

Low retirement age? I believe we've been through that.

Averages don't show big differences - http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1696682/Rising-retirement-ages-in-Europe-compared.html

Early retirement does - http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2010-05-18-europeretire18_ST_N.htm

From your link, number of still employed:

55-59 years - Germany 64%, Greece 31%

60-64 years - Germany 23%, Greece 18%

65-69 years - Germany 3%, Greece 4%

Couple of hard-working geronts enables early retirements of many, isn't it so?

[Caid Ivik]

Really, this would imply otherwise: http://www.zerohedge...itary-purchases

As if the people currently have any real power. Governments are usually in control of the finances of a country (ie. not the people), especially in the case of Greece.

Yes, that's a funny point, especially when I look at Wolf's post about Germans being angry at Greece's military spending...

[That Guy]

Yes, that's a funny point, especially when I look at Wolf's post about Germans being angry at Greece's military spending...

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're trying to imply or say, could you elaborate?

[Caid Ivik]

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're trying to imply or say, could you elaborate?

In the link you've posted is a lot of German products involved. It shows part of the fact that the measures taken to prevent Greece from defaulting are actually aimed to help creditors, not the debitor.

Wolf: The Greek debt crisis has been discussed ad nauseam and I think there's very little doubt that much of the blame really does rest squarely on Greek shoulders. I mean, for Heaven's sake, the country has the world's 23rd largest military but a population of only roughly 10 million. They've got almost as many main battle tanks as Israel for crying out loud and--if I'm not mistaken--Greece ought to be primarily a maritime power. No wonder the Germans are furious.

[That Guy]

In the link you've posted is a lot of German products involved. It shows part of the fact that these measures to prevent Greece from defaulting is actually aimed to help creditors, not the debitor.

My apologies, I never actually read Wolf's post properly.