SCUD Question about Germany

[Gwizz]

After comments It got me thinking about the poor and wonder why they are poor.

I guess there are layers of the poor in the US.

Some are street people who have free food, free medical and a bed provided if they want it.

Some have the above + a free house or free apartment.

Some have the above + a house, a car and a TV.

The above normally do not want a job or any responsibility.

.    For the next levels people take advantage of opportunity.

Some have a low paying job, rent a house, may own a car and a TV.

From here jobs start paying more and responsibilities and opportunities enter their lifes.

These standards are not world wide and a poor person in 3rd countries do not have many opportities.

By 3rd world standards The US does not really have poor people.

Crime is a different problem.  I wonder if the rest of the world does not have as much crime or maybe deals with it differently.  Mexico sends criminals to the US.  The US tends to be against execution and offers many benefits to a prisoner.  Some can vote.  ::)

I really don't know how most other countries deal with crime Or why we have so many in prison.

Seems there should be a solution to these problems.   

[SCUD]

If you don't fight for freedom then you don't deserve it and you will loose it.  ;)

That has nothing to do with peace or politics.

BTW! Please watch your language. This is a public, family forum.

i'm sorry about that...i will never happend again ;-)

you can't fight for freedom, peace and democracy...when you fight there is no peace.

e.g. the war in iraq...where is the peace the freedom and the democracy there?

the government etablished by the US army? thats nothing i would call freedom or democracy.

fighting to protect your freedom is something else, but to fight in another country to bring, or better to force/dictate them to your kind of freedom is not right.

my kind of freedom is to live with my wife and daughter here in germany. of course i will protect them from anyone who wants to harm them, but i don't want to go to France to dictate them my kind of freedom.

i don't want to annoy you or anyone else. thats only my way of seeing this.

I respect your oppinion for sure ;-)

[Hawk]

i'm sorry about that...i will never happend again ;-)

you can't fight for freedom, peace and democracy...when you fight there is no peace.

e.g. the war in iraq...where is the peace the freedom and the democracy there?

the government etablished by the US army? thats nothing i would call freedom or democracy.

Personally I'm not the least bit interested in a Democracy. I'm interested in a Republic.  ;)

fighting to protect your freedom is something else, but to fight in another country to bring, or better to force/dictate them to your kind of freedom is not right.

my kind of freedom is to live with my wife and daughter here in germany. of course i will protect them from anyone who wants to harm them, but i don't want to go to France to dictate them my kind of freedom.

i don't want to annoy you or anyone else. thats only my way of seeing this.

I respect your oppinion for sure ;-)

I don't like the idea of trying to force another country to change their politics, but I'm all for the war against Extreme Muslim Terrorists.

I think we should spend our time defending our borders and shores. The rest of the world doesn't much care for the US so let them fend for themselves.

If some country asks for our help, that's another matter. I can't recall the last time that happened though.

[SCUD]

i'm glad to read that, hawk.

the war against terrorism...everyone think different about it.

I think that terrorist won't aatack USA, when they don't make war...germany isn't a target for terrorists...we are not involved in any war...we are "freedom Forces" NATO *laugh*

luckily we won't get side by side to our allies the USA in war...

one of the greatest men for me said, that terrorism is the war of the poor...

the discribsion of terrorism is different for anyone, i think.

see back on september 11...the USA isn invulnerable...it was a bad day for all in the west hemisphere, me too. Thats something i can't understand. On the other hand, the US Army killed many people...civilians too...accidents or colleteral dammaged they call that.

The world could become more peacefull, when crazy people like Saddam or the dictator of Burma doesn't exist. Badly they do.

please don't get me wrong. i don't hate the USA...most good PC games are from there  ;D

The USA is a powerfull country. I hope they learn to use their power for better things than war.

I take a bow for you. You help me to understand some things in USA politics better than the propaganda like news.

If you get to germany, i would be proud if we can meet.

[djf01]

Some are street people who have free food, free medical and a bed provided if they want it.

Some have the above + a free house or free apartment.

Some have the above + a house, a car and a TV.

The above normally do not want a job or any responsibility.

.    For the next levels people take advantage of opportunity.

Some have a low paying job, rent a house, may own a car and a TV.

From here jobs start paying more and responsibilities and opportunities enter their lifes.

These standards are not world wide and a poor person in 3rd countries do not have many opportunities.

I haven't traveled at all in the 3rd world, except New Zealand.  (for those of you who don't know, it's my patriotic duty as an Aussie to publicly slag off New Zealand at every opportunity :-)).  But I'm sure you're right about that Gwizz, at least in dollar terms.

I was under the impression that there was little/minimal public housing in the US, and what there is is of extremely poor quality.  And I didn't think it was free, just subsidized.

Consider a peasant farmer in rural China.  No education, no skills, no assets.  But they have access to a small plot of (state owned) land they can use to produce their own food from and live on.  They might have an income of $50/year, and are clearly in total poverty, but they can survive.

My point is the cost of surviving in the 3rd world is (usually) lower.

Consider someone with no skills, no assets, no reasonable prospect of gainful employment (for whatever reason) in the USA.  Unemployment insurance has expired.  What are their options?  (I really don't know).

It was the ghettos, trailer park estates, etc (and street begging, but I think this is a different issue) of the US I found quite confronting.  Now I *know* we have places like this in Sydney, and I'm sure Hamburg has it's poorer districts too, but in my experience they are harder to find, and harder to distinguish than in the US.

And can someone please tell me how do you get free medical care in the USA?

Crime is a different problem.  I wonder if the rest of the world does not have as much crime or maybe deals with it differently.  Mexico sends criminals to the US.  The US tends to be against execution and offers many benefits to a prisoner.  Some can vote.  ::)

I really don't know how most other countries deal with crime Or why we have so many in prison.

I can't really offer any informed comment on this, but I can make a few suggestions based on what happens here in Australia:

1) Judicial discression in sentencing.

In Australia, and I understand in most UK based legal systems, the judge has a great deal of leeway in sentencing.  They tend to avoid custodial sentences where-ever possible. 

This is changing, but we have very few mandatory minimum sentences, and not as much statute defined sentences.  Plea bargaining doesn't happen much in our system, because the judge looks at the facts of each case, and sentences based on that, rather than the particular law that was found to be broken.

2) Generally shorter sentences for equivalent crimes.

In Australia at least, the same crimes generally attract shorter sentences than in the US.  (ie same amount of crime = less people in goal in Oz vs US)

3) Firearm prevalence is much lower (or so I'm told, I've never seen anyone without a badge carrying a gun in the US).

The introduction of a firearm turns a petty crime into a major one.

[NB We don't have particularly strict gun laws in Oz, it's just culturally we don't have  much of a tradition of owning guns]

Again I'm guessing, but I think it's possibly easier to attract a short custodial sentence for a petty crime in the US.  And while this might effectively serve as a "wakeup call" for some people, even a short custodial sentence can quickly institutionalize others.

Man, we're not talking much about RRT are we :-)!

[djf01]

If you don't fight for freedom then you don't deserve it and you will loose it.  ;)

That has nothing to do with peace or politics.

Hawk, I think there is a subtle difference between you and Scud (and I) on this point.

I think we all agree that "freedom must be defended".

Sure, there are times when force is necessary.  But if you take the view that force is the *only* way to defend freedom (which is what "you must fight for freedom" reads like), you find yourself physically confronting everyone who doesn't share your particular definition of freedom.

Being the fastest gun in the west doesn't necessarily make you any safer, nor give you any more freedom.

[Hawk]

Hawk, I think there is a subtle difference between you and Scud (and I) on this point.

I think we all agree that "freedom must be defended".

Sure, there are times when force is necessary.  But if you take the view that force is the *only* way to defend freedom (which is what "you must fight for freedom" reads like), you find yourself physically confronting everyone who doesn't share your particular definition of freedom.

Being the fastest gun in the west doesn't necessarily make you any safer, nor give you any more freedom.

Quite the contrary dj. I don't care what other people think, as long as they don't try to take my freedom away. That I will fight to the death for. There's no room for negotiation there.

Other people's thoughts never hurt me.  ;)

I think that terrorist won't aatack USA,

I don't think we've seen the last of the terrorists in the US. I expect them to try again after the election.

They've already tried a couple of times but were caught.

Nope! They're not done here. They'll be back.  ::)

Man, we're not talking much about RRT are we :-)!

We did get a bit off topic here, didn't we.  :-[ ;)

[Gwizz]

djfo1,

I was under the impression that there was little/minimal public housing in the US, and what there is -- of extremely poor quality.   And I didn't think it was free, just subsidized.

We have both and housing, at least in Seattle area, is quite nice.

Consider a peasant farmer in rural China.  No education, no skills, no assets.  But they have access to a small plot of (state owned) land they can use to produce their own food from and live on.  They might have an income of $50/year, and are clearly in total poverty, but they can survive.

The small independent farmer is all but gone in the US.  Farming is done by big business who owns most of the farmable land.

Consider someone with no skills, no assets, no reasonable prospect of gainful employment (for whatever reason) in the USA.  Unemployment insurance has expired.  What are their options?  (I really don't know).

Job training for the poorest is free and low in cost for others.  There is so much that is free that I wonder if it is legal for a poor person to even die.

This is the problem. So much is free that job training has few takers.  Our laws are way to liberal giving people little need to work and support themselfs.

Work creates respect for ones self.  Although, begging has made some men wealthy.  One local begger drives an expensive English car to his spot for begging.  I sure he is an exception.

It was the ghettos, trailer park estates, etc (and street begging, but I think this is a different issue) of the US I found quite confronting.  Now I *know* we have places like this in Sydney, and I'm sure Hamburg has it's poorer districts too, but in my experience they are harder to find, and harder to distinguish than in the US.

There are few ghettos in the US. They have been upgraded.  Trailer parks tend to be very nice and often older people use them for the socializing they promote.  I have seen some rundown parks but new laws and codes are replacing them.  The biggest problem is when people move into the new housing they tend to tear everything up about as fast as it can be built.  Upgrading the housing doesn't seem to upgrade the people that live there.  There is little respect for what is free.

And can someone please tell me how do you get free medical care in the USA?

Again our laws are very liberal. 

It says a hospital can not refuse medical services to a person who can not pay. 

1) Judicial discression in sentencing.

----the judge has a great deal of leeway in sentencing.

For us that is a big problem with our liberal judges who not only do their duty to interpret the law but also illegally change and make new laws, a process that the people have no say in.  Liberism is slowly distroying our country much to the delight of the One World Goverment people.

---the judge looks at the facts of each case, and sentences based on that, rather than the particular law that was found to be broken.

Our congress is charged with lawmaking and not the judges.  The people can't vote for the important judges and when we have corrupt appointed judges it is a major problem in the US.

Generally shorter sentences for equivalent crimes.

Again because of our judges, a person who kills someone could get anywhere from a year to life.

Judges can throw Recommend sentances out window.  They have too much power over the law.

The introduction of a firearm turns a petty crime into a major one.

That is true here as well.  It can be a bit difficult for a US citizen to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon.  A minority of people own and keep a gun a home.  In some places it must be registered.

Man, we're not talking much about RRT are we :-)!

We are a group of friendly people who have a common interest in RT games, though not always in agreement on other things and we do get off topic sometimes.  I don't see it as a problem unless the person who started the thread objects.

[djf01]

I'm going to have to go an have another look at America.

I must admit that I don't have any memories of seeing poverty and ghettos in Washington State or Oregon. 

But the way you paint it Gwizz, I'd be better off not going home (note to the immigration department robot scanning these forums: I'm just joking!) .  I could get my free house, free food, free health care etc :-).  So long as I didn't do anything silly like work, or try to pay taxes, I'd be fine! :-).

[Marsden]

Hi, hope I'm not butting in on a private conversation on a public forum, but I understand the welfare situation pretty well as I work for a gov't agency that hands out over 50 million checks every month. 

Sadly, what happens is a person that works and tries very hard to support themselves doesn't qualify for any help because they make too much, but a person that doesn't (can't or won't) work qualifies for help and can get it.  Then they tax that working person to pay for it.  It's becoming not worth it to work, and less people are, which causes unrest with those that do.  Additionally, the determination of certain classes of people to defraud everything they can out of the government is bad.  Gwizz is right on about the people moving into the housing destroying it right after it's given to them.  Meanwhile, other people in need are waiting for years.  I know my a highter up person in my agency stated that for every dollar spent on investigation of fraud they could save eight, but they aren't able to budget that dollar because of the huge amount of work with new claims every day.  Everyone has a reason why they need help, no one can help themselves and if they do they're taxed to oblivion.  It's very disturbing.  I'm fearful of the next president because it looks like no matter who it might be, they are going to tax the weak economy into failure because they are the party that the welfare receiving support.    Sorry to be so pessimistic but this is a depressing topic for me.  I don't want to deny help to someone, but I also don't want to support their laziness because they feel like the world owes them everything.

[Gwizz]

Hi Marsden.

you are alway welcome to jump in.

[Hawk]

I too fear for the future of this country after the next election, no matter who wins.

Heck the current elected officials have already screwed things up but it's going to get worse.

BTW! This isn't a private conversation. As Gwizz said, feel free to jump in any time. Always good to see others input their thoughts.  ;D