SCUD Question about Germany

[Gwizz]

I've read that Germany hires many that cross the german border to work.

Question:  Does Germany provide free medical and education to these workers?

[SCUD]

hi gwizz.

i'm sorry, but i don't know something about free medical or education.

but i don't think so cause they are not gemans, they are more like tourists.

but i can't be wrong.

why are you so interested in that?

[djf01]

GWizz,

From an immigration point of view, Germany is a member of the Schengen treaty group, which allows freedom of movement between member countries.  I understand this has relatively recently been moved eastward to include some former eastern bloc countries like Poland. 

It's now possible to enter and leave Germany without having to get permission from the German government, in much the same way it's possible to enter and leave Washington state without needing to get permission from the Washington state government.  A "foreign" worker in Germany, is now the equivalent of someone from Iowa working in Washington.

I've been told that 40 years ago the US/Canada border was nothing more than a road sign, where as the France/Germany border had guards, visas, passport checks, tarrifs, duties, queues etc etc.  But today, it's the other way around.

[SCUD]

that's how it is ^^

For me it's better this way, because cigarettes are much cheaper in poland as here in germany *smoking*  ;D

[Gwizz]

Living in Wshington I often traveled to Canada.

Now I need a passport to cross back into the USA.

The same thing would happen on the border with Mexico.

SCUD wrote "why are you so interested in that?"

In most of the USA we have a problem with illegals that sneak cross the

border from Mexco without using the normal border crossings. 

About 25% of the Mexican population are now living in the USA.

Almost all are here illegally.  Most are very poor and are just looking for work. 

I don't blame them for trying to improve their situation.

The problem comes because:

We have laws that no hospital can refuse medical care to the poor. 

It affected some hospitals so drastical that they closed their emergency rooms.

Others have raised the medical costs almost double what it had been before.

We have free education laws that dictate the way kids are taught.

Schools struggle to fund the teaching of the kids that only understand Spanish.

Since the tax payers support the schools, education now is both, much more

expensive and doing a very poor job of educating all the students. 

There are also other reasons that the quality of education has dropped in the USA.   

My son was an intern at the BMW plant a few years ago and said most of the employees

at the plant were not Germans, but did speak German.

I was just wondering if Germany had similar problems and if not,

how these problems were solved.   

[djf01]

About 25% of the Mexican population are now living in the USA.

25% !!!! 

Numbers I've read are closer 10-15%, and then this is "of the workforce".

Most recent US cencus (2007? which was designed to include undocumented residents) puts the entire hespanic population of the USA @ ~42mil.  About half "of Mexican origin". (21mil).  Pop of Mexico is 108mil, so that puts it at about 20%, but that includes all US citizens of Mexican decent.

I suppose if you were to say the 37mil people in California are *all* part of the "Mexican" population you could make a case :-).

We have laws that no hospital can refuse medical care to the poor. 

...

We have free education laws that dictate the way kids are taught.

Since the tax payers support the schools, education now is both, much more

expensive and doing a very poor job of educating all the students. 

It seems to me that the biggest problem America has with Mexicans isn't so much that they come, but they don't pay any Federal taxes when they do (because they can't get a US SSN).

I was just wondering if Germany had similar problems and if not

[\quote]

I seem to remember the Germans did have a similar illegal immigration problem a few decades ago.  They found a great solution: The Berlin Wall :-).

[Gwizz]

I think the last census was in 2000?  A lot has happened since then.

It was a few months back that I read that those in the US from Mexico were approching 25%.  both legal and illegal.  I don't believe this included Americans of mexican decent. 

I don't remember where I read this, so It may or may not be an exact figure.

I've also read that the califorina population now has over 50% of mexican decent.  This may include US citizens of Mexican decent.  I don't remember.

If Mexico had 108 million in 2000, it would be interesting to know what the population is today.  Mexico is concidered a wealthy country.  But, only a few have all the wealth.  They do strickly control their Southern border

I've also read that Mexico is importing lower cost workers from central America.  The Mexican workers in the US send back more money than it costs to hire Central Americans to work in Mexico, helping the mexican economy at the United States expense. 

I'm not speaking against those from mexico.  I have many friends of mexican decent.  Those I know are very nice people and hard workers.  I just believe that US laws should be adjusted fairly to fit the situation.

On a side note:

China is now starting to farm out work to other countries that have cheaper labor than in China.

Toys are one of the industries that are starting to leave China. 

I once studied the activities in a bee hive.  They have an advantage over us. 99% are workers that work.  They have no administrators, no politicians, no lawyers, no one in prison, no money or money grabbers, no economy as we know it to worry about and only a few odd fellows that enter and try to cheat the hive and kill the queen. 

So not perfect but nearly so.

   

[djf01]

I'm sorry Gwizz, I read a couple of newspaper articles and (I thought) they quoted data from the US 2006/2007 census, and I took what (I thought) they said at face value.  But I've checked and you are right, the last US census was 2000, the next in 2010.  The Mexican pop number is current though.  If you don't believe me, trust the CIA: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/mx.html

[Hawk]

It seems to me that the biggest problem America has with Mexicans isn't so much that they come, but they don't pay any Federal taxes when they do (because they can't get a US SSN).

They don't have SSN because they're not legal citizens.  ;)

That's just the tip of the iceberg though. There's a lot more problems that come with the illegal immigration explosion, such as the drastic increase in the prison population of illegal immigrants, taking jobs for less pay - putting US citizens out of work, and then sending billions of dollars back to their home (that money is then not spent to help the US economy).

It's been reported that there are approximately 25 US citizens killed every day by illegal immigrants.

Have you ever seen what a house looks like after having been rented to illegal immigrants? It's not a pretty sight!

I was in the construction business for about 25 years. Some of the shoddiest work I've seen is from illegal immigrants. We used to say every time they would come on a job, "Lock up your tools. The thieves are here." More tools were stolen by them than at any other time by anyone else.

Consider what all the other immigrants have to go through that want to become legal citizens. Why should the illegals have it so good?

To gain legal citizenship others are required to learn the English language. They have to wait up to 10 years before they're made legal. They have to pay thousands of dollars for their citizenship.

I'm not saying what happens with them is right. What I'm saying is it should be the same for everyone that wants to come to this country and take advantage of the freedom and the amenities that go along with it.

Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant"

is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist "

[Gwizz]

Thanks djf01 for the link.  I'm building a map of mexico (RT2) and looking for event topics.

In looking at the population of Mexico for 1907.

I believe that a country will count those citizens out of the country.  The US does.

So I guess what I'm saying is:

that there are now almost 27 million of their citizens on a working vacation in the US.

When they go home they are not as poor, making the mexico money grabbers better off. 

[djf01]

Hi Gwizz,

I still think 27mil is way too high. 

A couple of links I trolled out of Wikipedia that put the number of illegal immigrants at about 11mil, 6mil of which from Mexico.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ILL_PE_2005.pdf

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/19.pdf

[djf01]

Hawk,

Is it a fair comment that perhaps some of the social problems associated with illegal immigration are in part a result of lack of access to some sort of social security?

An illegal immigrant loses their not so secure low paid job.  They can't afford food, much less their rent, and they can't even go home and stay with family.  What are their options?

DJF

[Gwizz]

They are picking SS numbers out of thin air.  This would give whoever really owns that number extra earned credit.  Few numbers are being checked. The government does NOT want to discover the total.  Neither, the hiring businesses or the government want to discover the misuse of SS numbers.  I have a business friend who has sent in suspect numbers and gets no replies to his quest for information.

Yes, he continues to hire these people and will until he is told they are illegal. 

He says they ask for no benefits and save him a lot of money.  None of his regular employees were layed off.  I don't blame him using the systen as it is now operating.  His competion is using it.   

Business benefits from the lower wages and politicians get campaign funds from business.

Generally these are two sources I would not trust for information.  I'll keep an open mind, but with the memory of what has happened in the past. 

I tend to use the term: lie to me once and it is my fault for believing.  Lie to me twice and I'll never forget who lied.  Politicians seldom tell the truth.  I guess I'm just tired of voting for the lesser of evils.

[Hawk]

dj - The illegal immigrants are not loosing their low paying jobs. It's quite the opposite. They're taking over the jobs because they will work for less.

The problems come from their lack of respect for this country while at the same time taking advantage of it's social services.

In all honesty they have it made. A lot more so than us Americans. We can't get the free social services they get.

They could go home, back to Mexico, Guatamala, etc. if they wanted to, but why should they walk away from a gold mine. Once they get a ton of money saved up then they go home, with the money, and live like kings.

I know this from talking to them while I was working. They rub it in our faces.

[Gwizz]

I did a little more research on the Pew foundation. (One of your links)

Old man Pew set up the trust to wake up the people concerning the way the US was heading.

Since his death the fund has been changed and turned to the left.  The main focus now seems to be on hispanics.  Most of the trust money seems to be used to control politicians and fund the research arm of the trust.

In the reports that I was able to read, I looked for numbers of people but could NOT find any reasonable numbers to use. What it did have was a lot of percentages of this and that.  The conclusions made no sense.  They seemed baseless. I found it interesting that so much baseless information was banded about in the report.  They had to have numbers to build a percent but did not list any.  The footings listed at the end of the reports just sent me away from the reports to more baseless reports.  It did say they give grants to people to write these reports.  I'm quite sure these people will write the reports the way the Pew board wants them written.

The Border Patrol caught over a million illegals last year on our Southern Border.  A number of Individual border patrol men have stated that up to 100 cross the border for each one caught.  I don't believe we have 100 million illegals in the US.  It just shows the frustration held by these members of the Border Patrol who receive so little support to do their job.

I met a couple of them in a market about 10 days ago.  I attempted to ask them some questions. But, not knowing me they refused to say anything.  One did say, sorry we can't talk about the border and they walked away.

I must have looked like a government agent or something?  ::)

[djf01]

I know this from talking to them while I was working. They rub it in our faces.

It sounds to me like those guys worked out how to push your buttons Hawk :-).

I will ask though, Hawk - would you prefer to be an American citizen or an illegal immigrant?

More seriously, there is a real practical problem with a policy of "send them all home" (as we have in Australia). 

If people can be collected and deported off the street, the onus becomes on the individual to prove they are an American citizen/legit resident.  If you can't, you can be expected to be locked up and/or (if you are lucky) deported.

To counter this problem, governments then want to start issuing identity cards, and then start requiring you get their permission to do this and that just on the off chance you are not a *real* American.

Or worse, someone on your forum might not like one of your comments, call up the US Department of Homeland Americanness and say "you know that big dawg down in Georgia, he might talk like a good'ol'boy, but he's really an escaped murderer from Canada.  I should know, I printed up his fake birth certificate". 

It's not quite that bad in Oz (yet).  But we had a case where a woman who was an Aussie citizen, had been here since age 2, developed schizophrenia.  Her parents were German, and she spoke German as her first language.  After an attack of her mental illness, she was found delirious by the local police, without any documentation.  She wasn't sure who she was anymore.  But she was speaking German, had no ID on her, and ended up spending 18 months I think in immigration prison while the Gvt tried have her deported to Germany.  (The Germans wouldn't accept her because they had no record of her).

In another case, a woman who had migrated legitimately from the Philippines and become an Aussie citizen was in a car crash had a head injury (among others).  While in hospital, someone decided she might be an illegal immigrant, so to stop her  welching on our "free" health care system, as soon as she was out of a coma she was deported to the Philippines, where she spent 5 years destitute being cared for by a charitable institution.

Of course, this sort of thing would never happen in America, would it?

Sorry everyone, this is getting just a bit off topic ...

[djf01]

Generally these are two sources I would not trust for information.  I'll keep an open mind, but with the memory of what has happened in the past. 

I'm happy to be proved wrong on this.  I thought that rather than just quoting the Wikipedia page I'd actually check some of the references.  I got one gvt, and one independent, though I presumed they had some barrow to push.  But as they both had about the same numbers, I felt that was probably good enough.  This is after all, a post on The Terminal, not an academic paper.  I'd be happy to see something else on it.

That Pew article wasn't too far off the mark on some issues.  I can tell you, their point about not checking people have left after they've granted entry is right on the money. 

On my first trip to the USA, I spent a fair bit of time in Canada, so I had to get a US tourist Visa (US considers Canada part of the US for immigration purposes :-)).  I get issued with my US gvt permission slip, which I am supposed to return when I leave so the US gvt can verify I didn't overstay.  But I left North America from Canada.  These slips are not collected when visitors (I can't quite get around to calling myself an alien) leave the US for Canada.  Primarily because they are needed to re-enter the US from Canada, but also because the US treats Canada as part of the US for immigration purposes.  Instead, Air Canada are supposed to collect and return these American permission slips when people like me leave North America.  Of course, the US gvt has no jurisdiction over Air Canada in Canada.  They are just relying on their good graces for this, and my experience with that airline is .... well lets just say the *next* time I was flying to the US the thought occurred to me that perhaps the US gvt never got my returned permission slip, and I might find myself denied entry/arrested/deported for having "overstayed" last time!

[djf01]

Now to the point I *really* wanted to make ...

They are picking SS numbers out of thin air.  This would give whoever really owns that number extra earned credit.  Few numbers are being checked. The government does NOT want to discover the total.  Neither, the hiring businesses or the government want to discover the misuse of SS numbers.  I have a business friend who has sent in suspect numbers and gets no replies to his quest for information.

Yes, he continues to hire these people and will until he is told they are illegal.

Our equivalent (TFN - Tax File Number) has a checked digit and formula that can be readily checked to see if it's valid.  The formula is not public knowledge, but major financial institutions (who need to record account holder's tfn's) are given the formula, as are some approved software companies.  I think there is also some hot line small business employers can call to check a TFN is legit.

Now, I take it your friend also deducts/withholds fed income tax from his illegal/suspicious employees?  Is that how your system works (or is supposed to work)?

I was under the impression that most illegal immigrants in the US were paid cash in hand.

In Oz, a TFN is easy to get, and very hard (though possible) to live without.  The government might be pretty narky about cracking down on illegal immigrants, but boy, that's nothing compared to them not getting their income tax!

  Politicians seldom tell the truth.  I guess I'm just tired of voting for the lesser of evils.

Agreed.  That's the problem with democracy.  Whenever you get to vote, you always end up having to vote for a politician :-(.

[Hawk]

I never said anything about picking them off the street and sending them back to where they came from.

I agree with you. Doing that would lean toward a somewhat Fascist state.

Nope! The thing to do is simply make it illegal to hire them. If they can't find a job they go home. Piece a' cake. It worked in Arizona.

To answer your question as to whether I'd rather be a US citizen or an illegal alien, I'd much rather be a US citizen.

Of course you must understand, I don't use, require, nor desire any social services. I'm of the opinion that the less an individual depends on the government the more that individual depends on themselves, making that person stronger - hence making a stronger nation.

Unfortunately more and more people are depending on the government these days which is destroying this country.

[djf01]

I never said anything about picking them off the street and sending them back to where they came from.

My deepest apologies Hawke, for both inferring and assuming you did.

Nope! The thing to do is simply make it illegal to hire them. If they can't find a job they go home. Piece a' cake. It worked in Arizona.

Interesting.  Has it really worked?  Or has it driven the issue further underground?  ie All illegal immigrants working in AZ are now completely on a cash in hand basis?

Of course you must understand, I don't use, require, nor desire any social services.

Me neither.

Though I do confess to making full use of our health care system.  After all, I pay enough tax for it, and it's not like there is any alternative.  (We have a hybrid system, somewhere between the US model and the UK model)

I'm of the opinion that the less an individual depends on the government the more that individual depends on themselves, making that person stronger - hence making a stronger nation.

Absolutely.  I couldn't agree with you more here.

But ... (not sure if we'll agree on this or not)... I believe some sort of social welfare system is a good thing.  The fact is, in all societies there are some people - often quite a lot of people - that no matter how hard (or little) they try - simply aren't capable of looking after themselves.  Where you draw the line is another matter of course.

Welfare also has it's practical selfish benefits too.  It's much cheaper to feed and house someone on the outside than wait till they commit a crime, then have to pay to feed, house *and* guard them on the inside, and then have to deal with the consequences of a released ex-con in society.

Unfortunately more and more people are depending on the government these days which is destroying this country.

I don't know if that comment is true or not.  But I wouldn't have thought so.

The US is still the richest country in the world (on both a per capita and overall basis I think), by a fair way.  And (as I understand it) the US has one of the least US has one of the least generous/least universal welfare systems in the developed world. 

On the other hand, in my experience (which I grant you this isn't a great deal), the US is the only first world country where I regularly encountered obvious abject poverty.  (There are a few equivalent places in Oz if you look very very hard).  And the US has the highest (by some margin) incarceration rate in he developed world.

That doesn't sound like too many people are relying on the government to me.

Don't get me wrong, I *love* America.  It's my favorite place in the world (other than home of course).

But then I go somewhere like Germany and see how universally high the standard of living is, and I start to understand why they don't choke when they get their supermarket receipt and see they've paid 14% (or 17% in Finland) sales tax :-).

[djf01]

Don't get me wrong, I *love* America.  It's my favorite place in the world (other than home of course).

And SCUD, I loved Deutchland too! 

[Hawk]

My deepest apologies Hawke, for both inferring and assuming you did.

No problem. I was just clarifying my stance on the issue.  ;)

Interesting.  Has it really worked?  Or has it driven the issue further underground?  ie All illegal immigrants working in AZ are now completely on a cash in hand basis?

From everything I've read and heard all the neighboring states have been complaining because of the massive exodus of illegal immigrants from Arizona to their state, so I'd say it's working quite well.  8)

Me neither.

Though I do confess to making full use of our health care system.  After all, I pay enough tax for it, and it's not like there is any alternative.  (We have a hybrid system, somewhere between the US model and the UK model)

I rarely use the health care system in the US. It's become so corrupt that you can't trust doctors anymore because the insurance and pharmaceutical companies have too much control over them. Nothing against the doctors. They actually have very little control over the situation. As a matter of fact there's been quite a few of them, and nurses, leaving the medical field because of this.

As of right now we have very little socialized medicine, with the exception of emergency rooms, and a lot of hospitals are closing them down, or closing the whole hospital, due to all the illegals taking advantage of it.

Absolutely.  I couldn't agree with you more here.

But ... (not sure if we'll agree on this or not)... I believe some sort of social welfare system is a good thing.  The fact is, in all societies there are some people - often quite a lot of people - that no matter how hard (or little) they try - simply aren't capable of looking after themselves.  Where you draw the line is another matter of course.

Agreed, but see my comments above.  ;)

Welfare also has it's practical selfish benefits too.  It's much cheaper to feed and house someone on the outside than wait till they commit a crime, then have to pay to feed, house *and* guard them on the inside, and then have to deal with the consequences of a released ex-con in society.

Agreed!

I don't know if that comment is true or not.  But I wouldn't have thought so.

Just wait until after this next election. You'll most likely see this country take a nose dive in the pit of Socialism.

The US is still the richest country in the world (on both a per capita and overall basis I think), by a fair way.  And (as I understand it) the US has one of the least US has one of the least generous/least universal welfare systems in the developed world.

It's still way to generous as far as I'm concerned. Far too many people are allowed to take advantage of it and just simply refuse to take care of themselves because they know the government will. 

And the US has the highest (by some margin) incarceration rate in he developed world.

This is due, in large part, to some of the most ridiculous laws and zero-tolerance policies in the world.

That doesn't sound like too many people are relying on the government to me.

You'd be surprised.  >:(

But then I go somewhere like Germany and see how universally high the standard of living is, and I start to understand why they don't choke when they get their supermarket receipt and see they've paid 14% (or 17% in Finland) sales tax :-).

Again, just wait until after our next election. Our taxes will most likely sky-rocket so the government can implement all the 'Social Services' they plan.

[Gwizz]

Mexico has been sending its criminals by gun point into the US.

These people are a major problem.

I read that almost 30% of our prisoners are illegals.

They seem to like our prisons.  Much better than where they came from.

I had a doctor who moved from Canada so he could be in private practice.

He is a good doctor but became too expensive for me.

Said he could not make half of what he makes in the US.

There is a time limit on the US being the richest county.

We owe so much money and our dollar's value is falling fast.

Costs are increasing. 

Our next election could be a turning point if our people don't wake up.

[SCUD]

And SCUD, I loved Deutchland too! 

thats great...germany (deutschland) is a beautyfull country...

i was in the USA 2 years ago...it's beautyfull too, but in the cities like Chicago...it's dangerous...not my kind of living. Near Hamburg (there is Buxtehude) we have not so much crime...

I also don't like the politics of the USA...war isn't good...never

John, a good friend of mine, he lives near Washington D.C. , he says to me, thats something i never forget:"foghting for peace is like fucking for virginity"...i think he is right ;-)

please no discusion about politics... thats only something i would like to say

[Hawk]

"fighting for peace is like f******* for virginity"...i think he is right ;-)

If you don't fight for freedom then you don't deserve it and you will loose it.  ;)

That has nothing to do with peace or politics.

BTW! Please watch your language. This is a public, family forum.