of inconsistencies and the futility of discussion

[quoudam72]

"Mohiam is talking about how Jessica betrayed the Bene Gesserit by bearing a DAUGHTER, doesn't mean she was a failure in her training."

Shaddam that is incorrect because she was told to bear only DAUGHTERS, she bore a SON(Paul) that was what made her Mohiam's worst failure. They wanted a Atreides DAUGHTER (not Paul) to be inbreed with Feyd-Rautha Harkonne with a high results being that the child WOULD be a KWISATZ HADERACH from the union. Making Paul the wild variable in the equation for the Bene Gesserit program. The Bene Gesserit ignored the fact that they themsleves were a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely UNAWARE.

Take this into consideration for a moment BOTH the GUILD and the BENE GESSERIT had the power of prescience how come they didin't see PAUL-MUAD'DIB? The Guild saw Paul-Muad'dib but the Bene Gesserit CHOSE to ignore him. In the nexus, a meeting place place of countless delicate decisions, beyond that the path was HIDDEN from the prescient eye.

Now I will take YOU to the movie and pay attention. Remember when Paul makes the decision to take the water of life in the desert and he goes through the transmutation of the poison. "The worm is the spice the spice is the worm!" In that whole scene the obvious conclusion was that SOMEONE of higher order powers WAS taking control of the spice source. "He who controls the spice controls the universe!" It was said that in the Fremen legends of the Prophet the words were these "He shall be born of a Bene Gesserit witch."

Also it COULD be agured that the Bene Gesserit sent their M.P. onto Arrakis centuries earlier to implant something like this legend the legend of "the voice from the outer world" sure ignore it it was standard ruse from them. LOOK closely if they were correct in their judgement of Paul Atreides. "He who destroys a thing controls a thing", Paul-Maud'dib had become a moving membrane from whom no possibility could escape, a net in the sea of time, free to sweep future and past. So as you can see the Bene Gesserit did not deserve the STATUS that they had as they had taught their Missionaria Protectiva's ministrations their ruse as they called it, it was as stealthy as a Fremen ambush when it finally hit them as to what they did not see coming.

"God created Arrakis to train the faithful"

-from "The Wisdom of Muad'dib" by the Princess Irulan

YA HYA CHOUHADA!!!

[garth]

I meant to say she bore a son against the will of her superiors, that was a typo on my part, sorry.

""The worm is the spice the spice is the worm!" In that whole scene the obvious conclusion was that SOMEONE of higher order powers WAS taking control of the spice source."

I don't see how this shows something of a higher order, it shows me the connection between the worms and the spice melange.

So the Bene Gesserit made a serious blunder in overlooking the signs Paul Atreides, that is openly admitted in the Dune appendixes. I don't see a connection between their oversight and the Missionaria Protectiva.

"So as you can see the Bene Gesserit did not deserve the STATUS that they had as they had taught their Missionaria Protectiva's ministrations their ruse as they called it"

This contradicts my earlier quote of "Our Missionaria Protectiva seldom fails. A place was prepared for us in this wilderness." by Jessica. I would take a direct quote from the book rather than some potentially convoluted logic stemming from the lynch movie....

[garth]

"I can take him, Jessica thought, but that may conflcit with the way they interpret the legend. And again she wondered at the way the Missionaria Protectiva's work had been twisted on this planet."

~ p.298 paperback Dune

From this quote we can see that the Missionaria Protectiva's work with the legends had been twisted/warped over the centuries. That would explain the coming of the boy in the fremen legends. Or it could be an even deeper conspiracy than that, maybe they were planning for the training of the Kwisatz Haderach on Arrakis all along, the source of the all-enlightening geriatric spice? What better place to mold a superbeing.

[quoudam72]

The connection that you don't see is very simple. "He who controls a thing can destroy a thing." Paul-Maud'Dib would have to BE HIGHER than the GUILD in order to take control of the spice. Shaddam ponder on this on one side you have the GUILD and on the other side you have PAUL-MAUD'DIB. What are the differences and what are the similarities (the main ones only). Shaddam here is where you use your concrete thinking but add a few if's and's and but's and you will see:) Once Maud'dib took the WATER OF LIFE the Guild could not touch him and the Bene Gesserit knew they had made a mistake in their dominace(with the spice melande) of the universe.

NOW LOOK AT THIS in Lynch's movie the GUILD NAVAGATOR looks like a smaller version of the WORMS on ARRAKIS. The Guild already had HINDSIGHT but even they were not believers. The M.P. had been used as a safeguard for the B.G. but it was also their undoing on the planet Arrakis. Plain and simple you can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink.

YA HYA CHOUHADA!!!

[garth]

"The M.P. had been used as a safeguard for the B.G. but it was also their undoing on the planet Arrakis."

I agree but I still dont see what you're getting at. The same could also be said of the Guild, they always followed the safe path that lead ever downard into stagnation, never taking control of the spice for fear it may destroy them.

"NOW LOOK AT THIS in Lynch's movie the GUILD NAVAGATOR looks like a smaller version of the WORMS on ARRAKIS."

That is true to some extent in the movie but they look more like slugs to me, in the books they are described as fish-like with flippers and huge lungs etc. this isn't a valid point.

"The Guild already had HINDSIGHT but even they were not believers."

Believers in what, a god?

Muad-dib wasn't a god, if that is what you're getting at, he was an heir to a dukedom using fremen and their legends to get his fief back. He was, however, the Kwisatz Haderach, which is essentially a male with all the powers of a Reverend Mother (passing on other memories etc.) with mentat computational abilities.

You have me thoroughly confused now :)

[quoudam72]

No,this has nothing to do with Paul being a god. He was not he was a Prophet. I was pointing out the inefficient Bene Gesserit behavior in the affair and the inept way the Guild dealt with higher order powers. When they saw the nexus they could not take control of the spice because they could not see the outcome THEY (GUILD) were being blocked out. Some agency had pulled the wool over thier eyes.

What I am saying about the M.P. is that it was the one thing the Bene Gesserit needed to know who Maud'dib really was. They ignored Paul and fell prey to thier own trick.

You were right Arrakis HOME of the spice and someone was planning for the training of the Kwisatz Haderach on Arrakis the whole time IMO.

As far as the references to the movie I just wanted you to see how all of these things were there whether they were said or not. In the images of the movie. IMO :)

[garth]

I think what caused the "wool over their eyes" is the fact that a prescient being cannot "see" another prescient being in the future, at least not until later in the series. Paul was prescient, the Guild had limited prescience, therefore they were both having trouble finding which way to go. I don't think the original book actually explains this though, it becomes clearer by the second and third.

I think the Missionaria Protectiva suceeded in planting the legends on Arrakis, but failed to follow through with their consequences (or maybe it was a failure to control the right people).

[Mahdi]

"From this quote we can see that the Missionaria Protectiva's work with the legends had been twisted/warped over the centuries. That would explain the coming of the boy in the fremen legends. Or it could be an even deeper conspiracy than that, maybe they were planning for the training of the Kwisatz Haderach on Arrakis all along, the source of the all-enlightening geriatric spice? What better place to mold a superbeing."

Or you could say that Jessica's qoute is mroe proof that the Missonaria Protectiva was never there in the first place, and sicne thousands of years before the novels they still ahd thousands of possible Kwisatz Haderach Bloodlines, they would not be planting specific religions on specific planets for his training. and besides, the Bene GEsserit were going to ahve complete training over there kwisatz Haderach, just because they were afraid that there kwisatz haderach would do what he eventually did, escape there control. If he knows of no other way of life than the BG way, he isn't going to try to escape it, and Arrakis shows many ways.

On top of that, the only way that religion would have been usefull if they had purposfully planted it is if they had meant there kwisatz haderach to lead the fremen of Arrakis, and why would they want that? Once again, it would give thre KH one more chance to escape there clutches, and since he was going to be used as a religious tool to deleiver them the throne, they wouldn't even think of Arrakis. Its a backwater planet. Nothing special aobut the spice, and until Paul comes, no one outside the guild knows the true value of it. Not even the Bene Gesserit, as they use more than just spice essence for there mind-enhancing drugs at that time.

I don't own a copy of the book, so I can't give the qoute, but Jessica says somewhere that the water of life was LIKE the drug the Reverend Mothers use.

[garth]

"Or you could say that Jessica's qoute is mroe proof that the Missonaria Protectiva was never there in the first place, and sicne thousands of years before the novels they still ahd thousands of possible Kwisatz Haderach Bloodlines,"

That's not more proof the MP wasn't there, she starts off that thought by proclaiming the MP to have been on Arrakis and that the fremen had warped the teachings of the MP into different legends. She never doubts that the MP indoctrinated the people of Arrakis centuries ago in the books.

"If he knows of no other way of life than the BG way, he isn't going to try to escape it, and Arrakis shows many ways."

Not if he's kept in isolation.

"On top of that, the only way that religion would have been usefull if they had purposfully planted it is if they had meant there kwisatz haderach to lead the fremen of Arrakis, and why would they want that?"

Or they wanted the Kwisatz would be to at the center of greatest pressure on the universe, the single source of the spice melange with an inexhaustable supply for the Bene Gesserit to use to train and mold him into whatever they wished.

"they wouldn't even think of Arrakis. Its a backwater planet. Nothing special aobut the spice, and until Paul comes, no one outside the guild knows the true value of it."

Ummmm....the spice is the single most precious commodity in the Imperium.....the standard currency revolves around it....planet's are bought with it....it extends life greatly and enhances mental capabilities....pretty "special" I would say. Its medicinal properties have long been known throughout the Imperium.

"I don't own a copy of the book, so I can't give the qoute, but Jessica says somewhere that the water of life was LIKE the drug the Reverend Mothers use."

Yes there is a quote, no time to dig for it tonight though, and of course the logical explanation for all the obvious similarities between the Bene Gesserit Reverand Mothers and the Fremen RMs is because the BG Missionaria Protectiva indoctrinated them centuries ago and the rites and rituals were passed down from RM to RM., which also explains how Ramallo was able to pass down her other memories to Jessica.

The whole idea about the KH being planned on Arrakis all along is just a fleeting thought I had, I have no hard evidence supporting it (as of now anyways) and would be a waste of time for me to argue. Let's save it for another discussion if you don't mind :)

[quoudam72]

What is so fleeting about it because there is no hard evidence supporting it. Is your sole purpose in the posting to argue. Dune makes you ask questions that you will have to find the answer to yourself anyway. All the elements contained within this book is what made it the classic that it has become. I know that is way off the subject but I had to say it.

[garth]

No Fedaykin, it is just a distraction from the main topic and I don't want to get sidetracked.

[quoudam72]

Well we come to this point the BG failed to control the right people (Fremen) and by overlooking the Fremen they also lose the chance to have the KH in their control. The Fremen already knew who Paul was from the begining they never doubted it even when Paul was still questioning himself about being to one to lead them. Even the Guild knew and were worried about the outcome. This is why I have always had the utmost respect for the story of Dune it is story within story and so much more.

[garth]

I agree Fedaykin, that's what has kept me interested in Dune for about 4 years :)

Oh, and here's some more evidence of the MP's work on Arrakis for those who are still skeptical ;)

"Jessica turned away, looked out the window at the gathering darkness. "Is it really that terrible, this planet of Arrakis?"

"Bad enough, but not all bad. The Missionaria Protectiva has been in there and softened it up somewhat." The Reverand Mother heaved herself to her feet, straightened a fold in her gown."

~p.24 paperback "DUNE"