Do you believe this?

[Acriku]

Uh... he doesn't.

I beg to differ:

without proof, thats exactly what it is:  faith.

Since you have no proof, and no evidence that you will live to see tomorrow, what is it that gives you the faith to believe that you wont be dead?

[GUNWOUNDS]

That is a flawed argument. The fact that the chair did not break the last time you sat on it is not concrete as evidence to support that it won't break now, but that combined with the lack of any reason to think that it would break now is all a person needs to trust that the chair will not break. This is not faith at all. Whether or not it can hold up in court of law as fingerprints would is irrelevant, people will resort to trusting that it won't break unless given a reason to think it would. There's a big difference between trust and faith. I trust that the sun will rise the next morning. I have prior evidence that it has risen every single day beforehand, and I do not have a reason that it won't rise the next morning, so rationally I can trust that the sun will rise the next morning. This isn't faith. This is trust.

first of all using the sun is a bad example.... at our level of technology and knowledge we are able to project (roughly in billions of years) when the sun will supernova... so we have concrete evidence that it will rise in the morning.

[GUNWOUNDS]

it's so unlikely, it's not worth considering

I disagree... its not so unlikely when its YOU that is in the car wreck

[nemafakei]

"Go ask some gang members in Harlem who have a life expectancy of 25.... how unlikely it is that they will die."

Uh... That's why I put the word "generally" in front of the text you quoted. Obviously, if you have some reason to expect you're more likely to die than normal, then you should alter the probabilities accordingly and recalculate the expected outcome of your actions.

"so much time worrying about what happens if you die"

"if we dont plan against death it is very easy to end up in its grasp."

(my emboldening)

I'm not saying we shouldn't plan *against* death in the slightest. I'm just saying that there's nothing wrong with expecting to be alive tomorrow. It is, of course, much more sensible to do whatever is practical to ensure that death is postponed.

I'm talking about results of death, not sources.

[Acriku]

first of all using the sun is a bad example.... at our level of technology and knowledge we are able to project (roughly in billions of years) when the sun will supernova... so we have concrete evidence that it will rise in the morning.  SO your analogy is flawed.

Nice try, but the analogy still stands. Having a projection of when the sun will supernova is not evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. In the infinite possibilities of the universe, we are in no way guaranteed of the rise of the sun tomorrow morning, yet as I've said before Again, nice try. 

secondly ... people could use your argument and say that they dont have a reason to believe they will die.... yet their artery could be one second away from clogging and having a stroke.

That doesn't take away the fact that they would trust that they would not die. The very definition of trust allows the possibility of being let down. Your arguments are becoming less and less effective in this thread.

thirdly ... i dont have any reason to believe that UFOs dont exist and i have plenty of unconcrete "evidence"  so i think i can trust that UFOs exist.

As many people do trust that they do exist. Whether or not the evidence is sufficient or even correct to one person, it can be enough to another person who is just gullible enough to take it in. If there is evidence being used at all, then it isn't faith as empr and countless of others have described it. After all, where is the power of faith if it is simply believing in something with evidence and reason.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Nice try, but the analogy still stands. Having a projection of when the sun will supernova is not evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. In the infinite possibilities of the universe, we are in no way guaranteed of the rise of the sun tomorrow morning, yet as I've said before Again, nice try.

[nemafakei]

"then that would mean that ALL evidence and reason are meaningless and worthless and therefore everything is faith/trust."

It may be that his point is that the above, decended from empr's*, is clearly not an appropriate definition of the words, so there must be a better one.

*That being unless something is 100% proven, it is taken on faith

[GUNWOUNDS]

"then that would mean that ALL evidence and reason are meaningless and worthless and therefore everything is faith/trust."

It may be that his point is that the above, decended from empr's*, is clearly not an appropriate definition of the words, so there must be a better one.

*That being unless something is 100% proven, it is taken on faith

  I can already see this will turn into a semantics debate.

[nemafakei]

That's his point. Short of the rules of mathematics (and even that seems to assume some of set theory), nothing can be '100%' proven, therefore everything is faith. That sort of terminology is absurd and useless. Hence (I think) Acriku's point that the definitions of such things as faith (in something with very little supporting evidence) and trust (where there is good reason to expect the outcome) must be separated by degree, albeit perhaps with some middle ground (I can both trust and have faith that my sister won't burn the toast).

Incidentally, do you see what I'm saying in / agree with me on the previous post I made (time of three hours ago).

[GUNWOUNDS]

That's his point. Short of the rules of mathematics (and even that seems to assume some of set theory), nothing can be '100%' proven, therefore everything is faith. That sort of terminology is absurd and useless. Hence (I think) Acriku's point that the definitions of such things as faith (in something with very little supporting evidence) and trust (where there is good reason to expect the outcome) must be separated by degree, albeit perhaps with some middle ground (I can both trust and have faith that my sister won't burn the toast).

Incidentally, do you see what I'm saying in / agree with me on the previous post I made (time of three hours ago).

Ah Gunwounds sees.