The Top Ten Most Overpaid Jobs in USA (capitalists that Edrico should hate)

[Edric O]

Moving on:

I am not advocating some radical concept as you proposed... actually in a way we sort of agree with each other....

in primitive times.... to be "fit" you had to be:

1.) faster

2.) stronger

3.) be able to have sex and be fertile

4.) good hunter or gatherer

now in modern times  to be "fit" you only have to:

1.) not be retarded

2.) be able to have sex and be fertile

3.) be able to afford fertility drugs and oocyte implantation.

thus the bar is alot lower....  which is what i have been saying all along.. so i dont know what you were arguing with me for....

Well, see, misunderstandings can go both ways. :) I was arguing with you because I was under the impression that you were saying all of this is somehow a bad thing - so I proved that it isn't.

all i was saying is that to be fit nowadays all you have to do is have kids... you dont have to hunt, you dont have to be strong, you dont have to be fast....  Just have sex and have kids and pass on your genes.... and if you dont do that .. then you are biologically unfit from an evolutionary standpoint.

And one of my points is that being biologically "fit" isn't an issue any more. Humans have something more important than genes: Our minds. I don't care about passing on my genes, but I do care about passing on my ideas.

because in evolution the whole point is to make sure your genetic information survives thru time.

No. In evolution the whole point is to be a dumb animal and follow your pre-programmed instincts. Do you think animals care or even know about their genes? Of course not!

And in fact, it would be better said that there is no "point" in evolution at all - just like there is no "point" in gravity. These are natural, impersonal phenomena. They have no inherent "point" or "purpose". (unless they are guided by some intelligent entity, of course)

and you are wrong  about  our evolution being unnoticeable or irrelevant....  Mental retardation and mental illness are reported to be at an all-time high and increasing yearly....

Evolution is very, very SLOW. The reason why mental illness is at an all-time high cannot have anything to do with evolution, unless this is the result of an on-going process that had started before Rome was built. Most likely, the sudden increase in mental illness is nothing more than the effect of all the wonderful chemicals we like to put into our air, water and food.

[Edric O]

You see, it would take THOUSANDS OF YEARS of evolution to produce even the slightest effect (positive or negative) on the overall quality of human genes. That is why eugenics is utterly stupid (besides being morally wrong). In the time it would take us to make humans 0.0001% stronger by using natural selection, our technology will advance so much that we'll have faithful robots who are 1000 stronger than us. Biological evolution is ridiculously slow compared to the speed at which our technology is improving.

So why shouldn't disabled or retarded people be allowed to reproduce? The negative effects of this (if any) will only be felt over 10,000 years in the future, and by that time we will have a cure for their genetic problem anyway.

[danielsh]

You know something Gunwounds, you're right. There is no situation in which a disabled person could possibly raise a child. Indeed, mentally retarded people are indeed a blight on our otherwise-perfect world. Forget laws to prevent them from reproducing---they don't begin to go far enough. What we ought to do is force every mother to submit her fetus to a test for genetic mutations. Any mutated fetuses would be immediately aborted. Why not?

Maybe because it's sickeningly immoral. Two people should be allowed to consensually reproduce, period. There are not laws that prohibit a retarded person from having sex, although there are laws that would prohibit that if it weren't consensual. (If the disabled person were coerced into sex against his or her will, then a rape case could be made.)

I once took a class in genetics. We watched a video about dwarfism. I doubt that the numbers are as I remember them, but roughly 75% of the time the child would die. 25% of the time, it would survive. (I can't remember the Punnett square... maybe it was 50% death, 25% normal, 25% dwarf.) Nevertheless, the couples interviewed tried to have children. Because they understood the risks, and still wanted to have kids. People want a family, Gunwounds, no matter what their biology dictates. What right do you have to take it from them?

[GUNWOUNDS]

You know something Gunwounds, you're right. There is no situation in which a disabled person could possibly raise a child. Indeed, mentally retarded people are indeed a blight on our otherwise-perfect world. Forget laws to prevent them from reproducing---they don't begin to go far enough. What we ought to do is force every mother to submit her fetus to a test for genetic mutations. Any mutated fetuses would be immediately aborted. Why not?

Maybe because it's sickeningly immoral. Two people should be allowed to consensually reproduce, period. There are not laws that prohibit a retarded person from having sex, although there are laws that would prohibit that if it weren't consensual. (If the disabled person were coerced into sex against his or her will, then a rape case could be made.)

I once took a class in genetics. We watched a video about dwarfism. I doubt that the numbers are as I remember them, but roughly 75% of the time the child would die. 25% of the time, it would survive. (I can't remember the Punnett square... maybe it was 50% death, 25% normal, 25% dwarf.) Nevertheless, the couples interviewed tried to have children. Because they understood the risks, and still wanted to have kids. People want a family, Gunwounds, no matter what their biology dictates. What right do you have to take it from them?

sure ignore the points i tried to carefully lay out....

why did you ask me to express my views if you were not going to read them and just post your own biased repsonse?

next time dont ask a question.. just post your pre-canned response cause you obviously didnt want an answer...

Also i see you ignored Acelethal's excellent point.. to which i also

[GUNWOUNDS]

Edrico , evolution is slow... but you can severely screw up a child's  genetics pretty quickly by mating the wrong two people...

Take for incest for example.... there are so many fatal defects and non-fatal defects associated with that.

And look at Dan's statistics for dwarves above in his post.. 75% defect/death rate....

Evolution is slow but you can cause detrimental damage to a child pretty quickly.

[danielsh]

There are not laws that prohibit a retarded person from having sex, although there are laws that would prohibit that if it weren't consensual. (If the disabled person were coerced into sex against his or her will, then a rape case could be made.)

It's always fun when I get to quote myself. That was my way of addressing ACElethal's point. I think I'll just ignore your final bit of ad hominem, because I hope most of the people here can distinguish between an argument and a personal attack.

Your other allegations are entirely false; I addressed the majority of your ignorant and baseless 'argument,' as far as I'm concerned. But since it made no distinction between different mental diseases, or degrees of disability, or, in fact, anything, there's not a lot for me to say. You said this:

A mentally retarded person has the mental capacity of a child and therefore cannot consent to sex .. as they stay in a perpetual state of childhood....thats the primary reason for not letting them reproduce....

.....secondly they need serious care and therefore could not take care of a child.....

.........and thirdly.... MANY people go to see a genetic counselor before reproducing to ensure that they are genetically compatible as to not create children with severe problems.... Meaning most intelligent rational people would opt not to reproduce with each other if there was a high likelyhood of having a severely handicapped child....

i am not saying lets kill handicapped people or their babies.... i am saying that we need to hold them to the same standards we hold ourselves too.... meaning we

[GUNWOUNDS]

It's always fun when I get to quote myself. That was my way of addressing ACElethal's point. I think I'll just ignore your final bit of ad hominem, because I hope most of the people here can distinguish between an argument and a personal attack.

Your other allegations are entirely false; I addressed the majority of your ignorant and baseless 'argument,' as far as I'm concerned. But since it made no distinction between different mental diseases, or degrees of disability, or, in fact, anything, there's not a lot for me to say. You said this:

And I responded with general disdain for your stance. If you want me to be more blunt and specific, I would say this:

1. There is no such thing as "a mentally retarded person," as you imply one should be defined. As several people have illustrated, there are varying degrees of mental disability. In some cases, a mentally disabled person would probably be unable to actually consent to sex. And, as I specifically and unambiguously stated, that would be grounds for a rape case to be made.

2. How many people does it take to make a child? Could one of the parents not care for the disabled person and the child? No, of course not, that would disprove your over-generalized argument.

3. I quoted the dwarfism statistics specifically to disprove your cold, emotionless characterization of how "most reasonable people" should behave. It's a waste of time for me to re-hash that point.

What you are talking about is making the state intervene in cases involving parents whom you would characterize as "unfit" due to disability. (Which, for the record, is eugenics.) I say we take it a step further: can a man in a wheelchair properly care for a child? No, he's disabled! So let's pass a law saying that he can't reproduce. What about a man with one eye? No, his depth perception would be all screwed up. No kids for him either! In fact, anyone whose hair is not the proper shade of blond and whose eyes are not the proper shade of blue and whose skin is not the proper shade of white should be banned from reproducing!

God DAMN is this infuriating!

put what ever Aryan Nation/eugenics propaganda spin tactics you want on the issue.... the bottom line is that there is a percentage of mentally retarded people