The Butlerian Jihad a blessing?

[TMA_1]

In almost all respects, I hate the jihad and what it stands for in the dune universe. Think about this though. If the war against machines wasent waged, would humans have trained their bodies like they did before the jihad?

The schools were made basically to compete with the machines that were once made. They found that the human mind was more a miracle than any modern science, and in fact was its own amazing scientific paradigm.

It also seems that the three great schools that I mention because of their great prominance all point to a same goal.

The Mentats wish to achieve acts of almost superhuman thought. They do very well and it seems to me that they wish to find ways to force the mind into an almost analoge prescient state. Not that they can see in the future, but can make extremely, extremely precise predictions of that future. Hence the term for mentats "human computers.

The Bene Gesserits wish to manipulate the best blood lines in order to create a super human. Roughly you could call this kwizats hederach a super mentat. A being who was so beyond normal computation, that it didnt need to think the same way mentats thought. It could in a sense be in all places at once. Still though, isnt this just another form of computation. A mind so expanded that it could take into account altered dimensions of thought and time, to see time as a tangable thing. Like wrinkled sheets, valleys and dales that one must climb to see the contours of it all. It isnt supernatural at all. It is metaphysical. It isnt beyond, it just goes along side. It sees differently than others.

The Spacing Guild. I have heard many say that this is the most pure form of trying to breed prescient minds. I think it is totally opposite. They force extremely speedy mutation of certain centers of the brain in order to create beings that can compute the future. It seems though that it is a really a rushed and impure form of finding this metaphysical realm of time. Instead of making a perfect human, or training the mind through many many years. Candidates who are selected for sensitivity to prescient abilities are inondated with spice to the point that they are forced to mutate. I am not saying at all that they are ineffective. I am also not saying that how they go about this is wrong. It just seems that the guild navigators actually lack what the Kwizats hederach has. Even mentats, who are in all ways inferior to the computation power to the navigators. It seems that mentats are a more pure and human form of seeking the future. By all means, the guild is master of effeciancy. They have perfected it and it's oldest and mightiest of steersmen are powerful pioneers of future-travel. They still pale in comparison to the KH in my opinion.

THis thread harkens back to a post I made about the "enlightenment trinity". That all schools look toward a same goal, and that paul harnessed what all schools had to offer (the three I mentioned.) Indeed he was a mentat, or an equivalent (I will say in this little blurb that the DE made a perfect mention of this, and called this type of person a "raw mentat" one that hasent fully trained to be a mentat, but has qualities that mimic almost perfectly a mentat mind. Paul had this to the point that training really wasent needed, even before the water of life). He also was the bloodline key to the breeding program, fulfilling the bene gesserit goals. He also took the spice in great quantities, eventually taking the water of life that mutated his way of thought like the guild. He held all three traits.

All human minds after the jihad pulled towards the same goal, predicting the future. this may be a rough key to unity, but it seems true. It is amazing how frank wrote this story.

And it is all thanks to the jihad, and in the case of the guild, to finding a way to fold space without computers. Something that you would never expect to happen after the thousands of years.

THe jihad, one of the bloodiest times in human history was the key to training the mind to the point of humanity succeeding to a certain point in copying computation of machines. It also gave something more. THat computation with the human heart.

We would find that this beautiful mutation of the human mind would have it's parallels to the jihad.

Paul would kill billons, and Leto tens of billions.

It is always the path of humanity, but violence seems to be important to keep the golden path pure.

stagnation and finding of the "easy way out" only leads to death, as paul would say.

[GhostHunter]

None of it was made for human enlightment; it was made for machine destruction.

The BG specialized in advancing in both physichal and mental capabilities, the mentats did the same but more so on mental (From what I saw in the novels the Mentats had thinking capabilities and assessment past that of BG) powers. However, they did this to help fight the machines, it was needed to defeat the one and only human rival (Not counting themselves of course) and claim peace, for what it is.

I wouldn't especially call the mutilation of hundreds of billions of humans plus the near annihilation of the race itself a blessing. I personally don't think all those deaths were worth the end result of the BG and Mentats. There is no denying however, that these two greatly helped humanity in the novels, but there were only a handful of these two groups and even fewer GUILD. So basically, what we're looking at here are a few individuals with increased mental and physical capabilities in exchange for the death of hundreds of billions. Some how I don't especially think it was a good trade-off.

[Caid Ivik]

Machines caused human decay. Thus they first had to be destroyed to motivate people again to think. However, your "enlightened trinity" simply became a new closed society, which was too selective in acquiring new members. Mentats wanted not to spread it because it would lower their importance. Same for Guild. And Bene Gesserit did not tried to upgrade our race, but just one person. My view on it is: ok, let we have aristocracy, but let it is opened to all who want to reach its rank.

[TMA_1]

hmm... the problem is simple, you guys are going completely off the subject.lol dont get me wrong, what I am saying might seem stupid, but I want you guys to think about it. Maybe you guys dont like the ideas I give, but just listen to what I have to say. You seem to have your minds stuck on your opinions, like for instance ghosthunter you see the jihad as never bringing anything good to the plate. I would agree for the most part, that it knocked mankind back thosuands of years technologically, and ruined chances for other paths to mankind, as well as killing billions. Still though there are blessings from it, it isnt just black and white.

I said ghosthunter that the jihad was evil and horrible, but it too can bring blessings. All wars always bring blessings along with a horrible situation of the human condition. You are also kinda general with how the schools work, and why they were made. They WERE a core result of the ending of the jihad. They werent founded on what they lost, machines, and needed to advance themselves.

They were made in order to restore the empire, to fill the void that machines left with their destruction. People had to train their minds because largely they became inferior. You must also understand that groups like the Guild were founded with close ties to groups that supported programites, and really have no care whether thinking machines come back into play or not. The mentats and the BG have some harsh sentiments with computers, but nothing too large that is a problem. In fact the BG favored computers for keeping their breeding programs, computers worked very well.

Also you have to understand that after the destruction of the machines, people had to reinvent ways of living again. You can parallel it to this example. Say all technology had to be destroyed. We would have to revert to means of supporting ourselves, and at the same time find ways so that we wouldnt have to revert to a subsistance economy. THe people in the Dune universe didnt want to lose everything, they didnt want to revert to too primitive of times, and the schools were founded to regain what loss their was from the destruction of computers.

The bene gesserit wished to see into the future, wished to have a being that could see in many different futures, and see many places at once. This is why they started their breeding program.

The mentats were a replacement of statistics and probability machines, computers that would work out scenarios and whatnot to whoever had the money and the power. Mentats had to work on precise computing, so that they could predict future events and current changes with the times.

The Guild had to force a spice-evolution on men capable of it in order to enable them to see into the future, which is vital for beyond the speed of light travel, or fold-space travel.

Hello?? lol cant you see a connection here? All paths lead towards one fulcrum. This is the enlightened trinity that spawned paul atreides. He is the fulcrum!

~~~~~

Caid:

I think you are mistunderstanding a bit. You seem to be implying that these groups were just elites (and that wouldnt be far from the truth, it does have many points of elitism.) But they were selective for important reasons.

They had to pick the cream of the crop because not all people had the abilities of mentats, not all people had the correct bloodlines to spawn a kwizats hederach. Not all people could face the horrors of spice in such quantities that the guild gave to it's navigators.

Not everything is perfect caid, and there are some that are just plain better physically and mentally than others. Sometimes there are exceptions to the rule, but often these three schools had to select and choose to advance and adapt humanity to higher goals.

Now did all of these groups have their own alterior motives? yes, but all of them did hold humanity in importance. I think you kinda twisted things that the books say.

[GhostHunter]

(OCC: I don't especially think after one post you can say I'm stubborn and one-sided).

I'm quite aware that wars are double-edged swords, but you must also look at it from a logical stand point. Let's just say theres ohhh, around 4,000,000 BG/Mentats/Navigators, could be higher, could be less. Does this constitute for 345,567,567,564 something deaths? The deaths in total for the amount of these people isn't worth it. In fact, everyone but the Guild weren't exactly relevent.

For example, all the mentats did were build plots within plots which led to more conflicts which led to more deaths. They may have been superior but they didn't do very much except escalate the level of conflict.

What did the BG do? All they did were walk around and act superior arrogently to everyone while building their breeding program. What was the end result of the BG breeding program? The damnable enslavement of the universe by the Atreides throne.

[TMA_1]

I wasent trying to insult you, this is how I act in the duniverse section, usually people who post here regularly understand how this kind of chat goes, Caid does and I love his posts, even if we disagree a lot.hehe of course I am always right eh caid? ;) hehe jk.

Your statements on the mentats and bene gesserit are pretty emotional and opinionated.

I am not talking about the ethical costs of the jihad, and if the lives of many weigh over the blessings that occure, since when did you pick up that argument from my posts? I only said that it was horrible, but good things came from it, I never said that therefore it was justified. It just had a very good outcome in one specific way, I nver mentioned that somehow there is some generalistic Good to it. Dont argue if there is no point in arguing silly! lol

"For example, all the mentats did were build plots within plots which led to more conflicts which led to more deaths. They may have been superior but they didn't do very much except escalate the level of conflict."

Mentats arent just sniveling political tools. Mentats are used in almost every scientific and philisophical realm. They have been an asset to a universe without computers. They are the replacements, and so we can assume they are now very importantleaders in logistics, engineering, sorts of medicine, government, sociology (mixes with government somewhat.), technological sciences.

Dont you see that you havent thought outside the box? only about thufir and piter. They use their skills to better the imperium, they use them in many good ways, not just powerhungry and political ways. That is just a given. ALso look at thufir, not all mentats are as you discribed. That was a very very very iffy statement.

"What did the BG do? All they did were walk around and act superior arrogently to everyone while building their breeding program. What was the end result of the BG breeding program? The damnable enslavement of the universe by the Atreides throne."

Where would the history be? the religious tradition be? passed down by lore and legend written in their archieves. Where do you think mankind would head towards? death and stagnation! you discribe a world of peace and harmony, but leto II clearly states that this leads to death, stagnation. The golden path is what saved humanity, and without LEto's cruel kindness, and the bene gesserit focusing on the blood lines that indirectly created him, there would be no human life.

I think most people will agree with my statements made, at least the people I know and cna depend on with Dune stuff. The statements that these groups werent all bluntly evil, I think you overgeneralized.

[Egeides]

I agree with your post TMA (or should I call you Beyond??). It again goes side by side with my belief that the Duniverse is a modern form and evoluated form of vocational system (political system, economic, etc.) which I guess the terminology usually used (but not that precise and linked to Mussolini-Hitler-Franco) would be fascism. I even have as an hypothesis and impression that the dunish form of fascism is in fact fascism at its paroxism, possibly one of the two forms of perpetual social system.

Even if I do not believe for many reasons that such a system really works correctly, I do believe that those proning it in some cases really believe in it, saying that the goal is to "strive for something", and reflecting this into the governing of humans (statecraft). We see this tendency with this enlightenment trinity, which is what they strive for. A perfect being (since the being is what exists, thus what counts), probably to then be able to bring the rest to be like that too. Nietzschean uebermensch (supermen), eugenism, fascism: it's all linked, everything is within a global network, and the presence of this universal and comprehensive coherence is what makes Dune so "perfect".

Thanks for this good post Beyond TMA ;)

[Caid Ivik]

I think you are mistunderstanding a bit. You seem to be implying that these groups were just elites (and that wouldnt be far from the truth, it does have many points of elitism.) But they were selective for important reasons.

They had to pick the cream of the crop because not all people had the abilities of mentats, not all people had the correct bloodlines to spawn a kwizats hederach. Not all people could face the horrors of spice in such quantities that the guild gave to it's navigators.

Not everything is perfect caid, and there are some that are just plain better physically and mentally than others. Sometimes there are exceptions to the rule, but often these three schools had to select and choose to advance and adapt humanity to higher goals.

Now did all of these groups have their own alterior motives? yes, but all of them did hold humanity in importance. I think you kinda twisted things that the books say.

That's true. All main powers in universe had the main goal of survival of humanity. However, the Scattering showed humanity is able to survive even without the "golden path", so main goal should be pointing at higher targets. For example improving of all humans, not creating just a small race of worthy. Honored matrons were more like a religion, opened to all, thus they were more powerful than Bene Gesserit. Anyone could enter and receive their, ehm, training.

I would say that Bene Gesserit was limited in its core, by senseless project of Kwisatz Haderach. Also being in the Guild was a curse as well. So only mentats remain as the best vector of improving human abilities. But even these: they ceased to improve all humans which wanted to become mentats and still were selective only to those, who needed minimal work due to their talent. In fact, we aren't perfect. But if such group declares itself as a champion of human evolution, it should not work over humanity as some abstract point, but on all humans as individuals. Mentats and especially Bene Gesserit should spread their genes, not hold them in specifical bloodlines, don't you think?

[TMA_1]

hmm, arent both the starving and the scattering the fulcrum of the golden path? Through tension and threat of extinction, mankind betters itself. This was what I was getting at to ghosthunter.

Hmm, I mean ideally, it would be nice to open the charts of bloodlines. But since the universe is imperfect, you would basically open the charts up to people who would fear, abuse, slandor, and all around hate the idea of manipulation of bloodlines. Many would think it a great insult to treat humans as horse studs. see what I mean man? I think you do, you are pretty damn perceptive. :)

Also, the problem with opening bloodlines to encorperate more genes, is that you infect the bloodline with too many sorts of traits, that water down what you are looking for. This is why often inbreeding is incorperated in the charts, to keep the needed traits running through the bloodline. Diversity is good in a time of need, but when focusing the laser of humanity, you must be very selective.

[TMA_1]

also, thanks Egeides :)

I totally see what you mean. Eugenics has been attempted by many, and historically these interest groups have almost always been so evil that it makes you want to puke. For example, during the early 20th century many politicians perverted darwinism and turned it to social darwinism. As well as a twisted form of evolution. They wanted to sterilize all deaf, dumb (bad word for it, but it was what was used.), and blind people. They also wanted to sterilize anyone with disabilities. Most people dont realize how close america was to adopting this eugenics plan.

Later we would see a new eugenics plan pop up as well, it's home was found in nazi germany.

This brings up for Caid another good point, you would see why people would fear a eugenics program, which is why you wouldnt want it open to the people.

Often these groups are high and mighty, since they control the very essense of flesh, they have a power that few others have.

As you can see from frank herbert, he shows how honing mankind's bloodlines usually leads to unexpected problems, nothing works to test tube perfection.

[Caid Ivik]

But what makes you sure that these groups won't become perverted too? Then they will try to set own rule of supermen. Ok, we have Bene Gesserit, which tried to "help" the "lesser". But also we had Tleilax...

[Egeides]

I think that there's nothing to assure that. I'd even expect the opposite if it were in reality. But I believe that it is the ideology behind these groups, and an element that Dune brings, espescially from Leto II.

[TMA_1]

of course most of the people in these groups are currupt in the eyes of those who dislike them, or are suspicious of them. Even I think they are a twisted and perverted group of people (mainly the bene gesserit I am tlaking about). That doesnt mean though that they arent trying to achieve something that goes beyond normal humanity. They wished to bridge the gap, they wished to create the opposite of themselves to make themselves whole. They were the givers, but they needed the taker. They got something they didnt expect though, they got Leto the Second, the divided God, the male and the female, the Giver and Taker. Death and life all wrapped in one. These three groups may have many bad qualities, but they achieved much of their goals to achieve what they had before the jihad, and achieved even more, even if it didnt og their way.

[Caid Ivik]

Cusanistic reaching of unreachable, reaching of Infinitum, where point, line and circle are same? But still, we can't see opposites as acceptable by one of them until they won't reach the Infinitum. That's why neither Bene Gesserit, nor Bene Tleilaxu, were acceptABLE by other one. They weren't an absolute, so they could not find a consense. There can be only one true God, even if we make the scale smaller, i.e.for material domain of universe. Only Leto II, acccepted by all as the only god, could really BE a god, kwisatz haderach - bridge between the opposites, an Absolute Infinitum. But still, maybe his humanity was what caused he had not enough power to withstand his existence as an Absolute. The bridge falls and he dies, how symbolic...

[Egeides]

Caid, you believe that Paul was an absolute human? If he would have been, wouldn't he have known everything also, not only the future but EVERYTHING? And also be by definition non-vulnerable?

Personally, I think that a part may have reached something like this, but only that part... Conscience. Absolute consciousness.

[Caid Ivik]

First, not Paul, but his son Leto. Paul was a human who became what could be a kwisatz haderach. Not the kwisatz haderach itself. That was reachable only trough invulnerability, which nearly was in Shai-hulud form, taken by Leto. Second, not absolute human (that's a too confusing term), but a godly human. Leto could know everything in his own scale of space and time. Well, no more than this, but from space and time, if he wouldn't be killed, he would know really everything. However, Leto did not became the true god, as his humanity overpowered him - by death. With Leto dead, humans simply found out they can't make a god by themselves. And also that Shai-hulud, that Fruit of Wisdom, was really more a Shaitan, luring humans as a way to godness.

[SpiceGuid]

I like your enlightment theory and how well it fits within the duniverse which is a ultimate facist world (because Dune is a post-WWII novel). Constructing such ideas and coherently extending the novels can be intellectually satisfying.

hmm, arent both the starving and the scattering the fulcrum of the golden path? Through tension and threat of extinction, mankind betters itself. This was what I was getting at to ghosthunter.

Beware you are not fascinated by the ideas themselves however.

Some could misunderstand you, i fear any apologia of the Golden path could be misinterpreted as an apologia of the Final Solution.

I am sure there are more positive ways for the mankind to "better itself". Elitism and eliminating the weakest is the problem, not the solution.

[TMA_1]

being Godlike is extremely relative. I can be a small G god to anybody who wishes to worship me. Dont make absolutes out of relatives. Also, Leto the second was just a symbiosis of man and sandtrout. He was indeed beyond human, but there is nothing really spiritual about it. It isnt that he had too much humanity, and that isnt always the case. Though he started the venture out of his humanity, he was slowly being taken over by the beast, by the worm manifestation itself.

The benegesserit as well didnt suffer from relativism Caid, in fact they suffered from an odd sense of idealism and absolutism. THey believed that TIme could be seen like one can see ahead of themselves. THey believed in ignorance that they could control the KH, and so many other things. THey were idealists with illusions. I think you read too much into the spiritual with Dune, and bring in too many foriegn ideas. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it can distort what the book says. Though much of fwhat you said I agree with, It just doesnt fit for me, and for others I think.