various thoughts and conclusions on religion in the Duniverse (title changed)

[TMA_1]

I was wondering if anybody would help in trying to discover the roots of the primary religions mentioned in Dune. The reason why I dont say just the one eccumenical religion is because you hear of the zensunni, the similar religion of the tleilaxu, the sardaukar warrior religion, judiesm and so on.

For some reason I usually water down christianity from the eccumenical religion. Reason being is because it is seemingly less mentioned than other sacred texts. Usually the quotes made by the orange catholic bible dont give hint to the name of the book, and at times are even altered from their original state, but they are rarely christian in origin.

It also seems that it has met up with eastern religion, chopped and added new parts in order to reconcile middle eastern religions with it. It also seems that religions like zeroastrianism are key in their worship because they are the prime examples of unity between middle east, and east. Westernized religion seems present, but not nearly as much as other styles.

zensunni religion obviously spurted from the third mohammed, who most likely was a more peaceful sunni sufi/muslim. Seems as though this new "prophet" spurred the great push of islam across the known universe because it is so thick in everything concerning Dune. I do believe that this is why it is so prevalent, because other religions did not have such a driving force. This "prophet" must have been apart of sufi islam (I know that a teacher of islam is called a sufi, but there is a somewhat different group of islamics who are called sufi's). Generally sufism is a little bit more superstitious and contains a bit more of the old religions within it. somewhat like the catholic church in south america, how south americans have added their superstitions in with catholicism.

Also, I know this might sound dumb to you, and it is by no means meant to demean or offend, but people have actually told me that the eccumenical religion contains a lot of catholicism because it is called the orange catholic bible. Well most of you know that it just means it is the standard bible, which is what catholic roughly means.

sorry to add that little note, back to what I was talking about. The warrior religion of the sardaukar may not be that different from the warrior religion of the roman solders. Which was the cult of mythras. This cult has been around for thousands of years before christ, originated from europe. It traveled down and gained prominance in persia, where it is mistaken to originate. It was altered and changed, eventually came into contact with rome and the solders loved it, continued to for a long time. It grew so big once as to compete with christianity. Anyways, it seems this is so because of the way they act, they loyalty the carry, and other things I just sense. This is one area though I am iffy on so I am really unsure about the whole mythras cult being the sardaukar religion. It would be a safer bet to associate it with some offshoot of islam.

The tleilaxu religion is nothing but an offshoot of zensunni beliefs. See how east meets middle east. Also see how the zen does not go along with shi'i. The prequels are absolutely wrong wiht making a "zenshi'i" sect. Shei'i differ from sunni's in the amount of legalism and fundimentalism (if there is such a word). you can very roughly say that the sunni's are the liberals of islam. This would be required as zen buddhism ebbs and flows with neutrality. Warfare is not exactly condoned in it.lol it is pretty liberal

the tleilaxu offshoot is extremely altered to accompany their genetic manipulation, which true islam would look upon as blasphamy for doing the work of God. Even the fremen believe this. it is also altered to accompany their hatred towards other peoples.

The fremen are a little closer to the zensunni beliefs. The zensunni were almost completely peaceful. You can see this in the fact that they were moved from planet to planet. Never really hearing of warfare at all. It seems that they allowed this to happen as they were content in the fact that the future destiny commanded by God would lead them to true paradise. The promise land became very important to them because of the constant movement and squatting. Even now, when the fremen fight, it is because it mimics the hostilities of the world they now live on. They adapted kinda like how the tleilaxu did.

what do you guys think? I will add more info with this in a bit, I have to go now though, write more in a few hours.

[TMA_1]

Another mention is the fact that religion itself has gone a bit down hill in certain groups and societies. With the homogenization of religion, you have the lack of faith in it, as well as the rise of superstition and ritual. I mean think about it, a religion without faith is just ritual without reality. (as paul said in dune)

This enables ignorance to thrive, as well as groups like the bene gesserit to manipulate the rituals and superstitions of the people. It seems that the jihad was ironically the destroyer of true religion, even though at the start, many people truly believed, and would fight for their beliefs.

Smaller groups that are on the fringes of society like the fremen need religion. even though they are extremely superstitious and easy to manipulate in that area, they still need a "crutch" so to speak. With all the hardships the zensunni faced in the great moves, the only foundation and strength came from kinship and religion. This grew on even to those that came to arrakis and strengthened as the time came. Such a harsh environment made religion important for survival.

Generally when one is pampered, religion never really seems to be in vogue. This is usually how it works for the prosperus and the elite. This is also probably why when you read Dune, paul isnt as religious as you would expect or hope him to be, even when he is tangled with the fremen. His mom is just an obvious manipulator of religion and leto, well he really isnt that interested at all in it. You see this also with the imperial family, also with house harkonnen (duh.lol) and the assumption is safe that most noble houses are like this.

Any comments? also your own opinions are totally welcome to religion and superstition in the duniverse. Really just anything that you have thought of or has been on your mind.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, I would comment your zensunni part. Today is "zen" a philosophy of buddhism, based on action of human. Unlike lamabuddhism, zenists believe in no divine interventions, that everything should be done only by human. That negates your view on them as peaceful and fatalistic. Zenbuddhism is a heresy of eastern religions, like islam is of those western (islam is fatalistic). I don't know what exactly Herbert ment with zensunni religion, but I think mix of zen and islam mixed with traditions could be a half-animistic (hence shai hulud), strictly closed cult (like ancient Israel) based on meditation and mysticism.

[TMA_1]

totally disagree. Do you even know of japanese zen buddhism? I mean it is fine and you are a smart guy with a lot of knowledge, but often you are quick to comment instead of asking. I never expressed the similarities in doctern (or lack thereof). I simply said that the east and middle east threw away and added to their new beliefs. Zen buddhists are extremely fatalistic, almost like taoists. It almost goes to the point of nihilism. Shi'i islam would NOT ever mix with zen buddhism, let alone any eastern religion. You can see though that most sufi islam is sunni in origin, with pretty good exceptance of other traditions and so on. This is why the prequels were wrong in that instance because it would be like telling a hindu to eat a cow, or a christian to desicrate the bible. Animism is true to a point. shui hulud is more diety than spirit or demigod. I would agree that they are animistic with old traditions of ancient middle eastern religion. such as the belief of djinni and spirits of nature.

It just seems that a lot of information you have is bonified up to a point, and then it takes completely new and different twists in what you interprit it as. Still, I must say you know your stuff.hehe :)

[Caid Ivik]

Zen is japanese way of buddhism. It is a teaching of act. I would say, it is more like a shiite view, taking everything possible to own hands. Zen is the only way incompatible with hinduism, gods are too hostile factor here. Lamaism is that peaceful, tolerant, true middle way you are talking about. Zen believers are heretics even against Buddha. Lamaism, not Zen, influented taoism (which is anyway strictly chinese).

But if you mean with point the fact that combo is a nonsense, than I have nothing to say. Islam is incompatible to buddhism from core. Muslim is a servant of God, buddhist only of his karma.

[Scrinlord]

Well, Zen is not only japanese..

But ya, you are right, the Zen buddists really are not comparable with any other beliefs