Daelin

I doubt that is actually possible. The "clickable icon" thingy is building-related. If by messing with a certain byte you actually got the mentioned behavior it would be awsome to actually mention it. :) And as for "repair hold".... I wonder if this can't be achieved by some sort of scripting in an EMC file or something (if I'm not mistaken that's how the "always return to repaired units to previous position on the map" and the "turret increased range" thingies were solved). -Daelin

Really? I don't rememeber seeing 3 worms :)

Actually I think a comparison with Harkonnen followed by a JNE (jump not equal) instruction is performed. Probably equivalent in C is something like if (house!=Harkonnen) //allow build Light-Factory [obviously only for level 2] -Daelin

Ugh.... That pretty much sucks. It's a shame that the Area Guard stuff doesn't actually store the initial position when the unit actually enters into Area Guard and chooses that position based on the map specifications. :) Some assembly magic from Segra might be a solution though I seriously doubt it -Daelin

It is probably doable by replacing the return (which is probably a conditional loop) with just the area guard action. I still suck at assembly so even though I can write my little programs I cannot actually mess with a big stuff such as Dune 2. :) -Daelin

It's the fact that units who have Retreat replaced by Area Guard seem to make a combination of the two (first retreat to their original position and then keep area guard stance). Area Guard can be really useful if used correctly. For instance, having a couple of siege tanks area guard next to your turrets can be quite effective to avoid those launchers and sonic tanks trashing your turrets. :) It's up to the player which variant he or she uses: "Guard" or "Area Guard". Only if it were not for that bug..... 8-| -Daelin

That's actually more efficient than the classical Retreat :) -Daelin

I think about the bullet size I had already mentioned it somewhere around here earlier when I was playing with the editor..... And it's normal to crush concrete easier. After all concrete has also a limited number of HP just as other buildings. :) -Daelin

Really? Is that what actually prevents concrete to be built on concrete? hmm.... weird I want to play with the .EMC files when I get some time. I didn't know until today (thanks to your link to Minniatian's post) that we have the information. Ooooh no.... this encourages players to spam-build turrets even more than now. I don't think this would be a good idea. The opponent has very few turrets anyway. :) Perhaps bolster the defences near the CY more :) Oh, and I just thought about the aggressivity levels. If the opponent removes the CY, it would be normal next to go for the Heavy Factories/Starports, which are practically sources of a new CY. The player's advantage is that if it removes AI CY the AI never rebuilds it with an MCV (atleast I've never witnessed such a rebuilt). On the other hand, players are capable of rebuilding bases using MCVs. Speaking of which: what's the threat level of an MCV? :) Edit: oh and btw, does anyone actually find the retreat command useful? I was wondering if for most units we could replace Retreat with Area Guard :) It would be pretty useful in my opinion... -Daelin

It would be, but it doesn't work like that. The game actually requires that you build the concrete first. Your editor helped me figure this out (only the construction yard and obviously concrete itself do not require concrete beneath them) :) -Daelin

Whooops..... typo there. Thanks TrueBrain for pointing that out. I modified the post :P Interesting stuff there. This certainly explains a lot about the repair cost. Great job TrueBrain! :) -Daelin

Value representations usually come with a global limit in BYTES. Char/"tiny int" comes on 1B, meaning - Signed values (usually represented in 2's Complement) have a range of -128...127 - Unsigned values vary from 0 to 256 The 512 seems to have no point here. But MrFlibble has a very neat question: why 2x256? I wonder how the repair cost is actually calculated for buildings. Is it related to HP, or building cost? Are the building's HP somehow divided by 2 and then the value stored on 1B (instead of 2)? And what do negative values actually do to the credits? Shouldn't repairing a building for "negative cost" actually GIVE money instead of taking? -Daelin

Nope. Strangely the Atreides built no 'Thopters. I don't know if they even had a Hi-Tech facility. Check your savegame for the 8th Sardaukar mission and see... And the fact that units are assembled midway makes things a bit easier and it's practically the best way to counter the whole "group" move :) Here I will agree with you. I have no code proof that it is like this, but I have a different source which makes me believe that you are right: walls are also built with half HP if they are not placed on concrete (and I rarely place walls on concrete anyway). Besides that, I also had quite some power shortage this level, for I had to quickly place turrets instead of wasting my credits on Windtraps. Maybe you can modify walls so that they do not need Concrete beneath them (no lore or logical reason, but because of gameplay considerations). Actually the range is awkwardly low. As I said, Devastators can now outrange the turrets from certain angles which in my opinion is a bit imba, and gives Harkonnen a major advantage (but then again, we're trying to make this tough, so what the hell?) Also a wacked idea popped into my mind and it may actually make the AI more difficult (or prove to be plain stupid... haven't tested): what if all units and buildings had the same threat level (except 'thopters and saboteurs which can prove quite bitchy if ignored )? That way the opponent would go for whatever he can find to attack, and when multiple opponents are on the field, this can prove quite chaotic and tough to control. If the opponent would take the distance as a factor, then this could be abused by skilled players and make the idea stupid, but if the AI would simply pick random targets it could prove to be quite annoying (AI's actions hard to predict... ::) ). Because practically not being able to predict what the AI is attacking makes things difficult ;) -Daelin

Hmm.... interesting :) I finally tried playing Sardaukar Mission 8 and I had quite a pleasant surprise. The play-style has definitely changed. I'm here to make some observations about how I felt the game behaved. 1. The turrets are definitely less effective, and this has caused quite some problems for me. The range-reduction has proven to be quite annoying when dealing with devastators, rocket launchers and sonic tanks (yes, the Harkonnen devastators were shooting out-of-turret-range). While I was assaulting the Atreides base I had to keep bouncing between their base and mine just because of the single devastators attacking my base. 2. I did not really observe that "group-attack" bug fixed. Why? Because most of the enemy units just stopped midway. I am curious where the AI is "grouping" his units. Is it outside or inside the base? Because if it is outside, I simply took a bunch of Siege Tanks and kept going and destroying the enemy units as they started packing (I love the smell of burning Launchers). So no biggie advantage. The only "packs" which succeeded to reach my base were soldiers and quads. But they are no big deal (Except the fact that quads actually demolish my walls.... like WOW, did not expect such firepower). 3. The enemy bases are so easy to scorch. The level was a piece of cake once I had established a strong base and went for offensive. The reduced turret range makes things just too simple. With a couple of Siege Tanks and Launchers it was too easy to destroy the base... easier than in the original game in my opinion. Perhaps more mobile defenses (units) should be put at the disposal of the AI? It would definitely make things tougher. 4. I definitely miss the Repair Facility (in a good way though :P)... It makes things quite tough for the Sardaukars. Siege Tanks and Launchers are not cheap, and spice melts like ice in the desert. This made things quite difficult, so awesome stuff! Too bad I did not really have to rebuild much. 5. No starport sucks as well. I wanted to quickly get some carryalls to boost my spice production. And again, Carryalls are damn expensive if you can't afford to get them via the Starport. Sardaukars could definitely have some credits issues if not for a good spice production (for which you normally need carryalls and here goes the vicious circle). Nevertheless, awesome job. I'll have to next experiment a bit with the Fremen and the Mercenaries and see what surprises do they have up their sleeves. -Daelin

Walls are never rebuilt.... neither are concretes. I wonder though if threat level has something to do with rebuilding the base. Did you observe any significant differences after modifying Super Dune's AI behavior?

We should first test it and see what happens :) -Daelin

Either this, or some script actually keeps buildings HP normalized. Also keep in mind that even though the 100% can be surpassed, after a long period of time if the limit for the HP is not so high (and I suppose it is a 2B value) it will flip to negative, moment in which I'm curious how the game will handle. :) So in my honest opinion, healing buildings is a big no-no, unless the healing is normalized. -Daelin

Well, I stated that because I can be wrong (and as it seems I was). Thanks for clarifying that :) It was not intended in a sarcastic way. I don't know why, but I have the feeling that the Ordos were initially not supposed to be able to build Quads, just like "losing the palace means you lose the mission" thingy. Yet then again, this feature is not present in the PC version (I don't know about the Amiga or other versions...). It's a hunch of course. I perfectly understand that this is WIP, I'm just pointing some simple things out, not chopping with an axe. The Fremen image in my opinion is no longer relevant, as the Fremen are not something essential to the mission like they would've been in the original game (where the Palace introduces them, for example). Here the Fremen replace the simple troopers. :) Of course. That's why when each modification is made that entry, mentat entries should also be modified, just to keep things in order. Probably because I just wanted to emphasize the "the". Already forgot :P Interesting... :) Good to know that. Well, thanks for clarifying things. -Daelin

Okay, here are my observations. Some are merely suggestions than mistakes but I thought I should mention everything I had in mind. The techtree has been directly studied using Nyerguds' editor. Modifications are usually capitalized. Sardaukar IX - "we do not require outside assistance" - uhm, is it just me or the Sardaukars can also build House of IX? Light Factory & Repair Facility - nowhere stated that the building is useless/the faction cannot build it. Some observations would be nice :) Windtrap - it's 'installationS' (plural) Siege Tank -"ITS armor and weaponry HAVE the power...." Devastator - "exclusively Harkonnen"... uhm, is it just me or the Sardaukars can build Devastators too? Mission 6 Advice - place Rocket Turrets? RTs are only available starting the 7th mission. Mission 8 - Sardaukar quads present on the map, even though Sardaukars do not have access to them. I am certain this is a leftover from the old mission, but maybe they can be removed/replaced. Mission 8 - replace image with Death Hand? (fremen already used in Mission 2) Mercenary Heave Factory - the "remember" word doesn't necessarily imply that the Mercenaries do not use the Heavy Factory. I suggest removing it from the sentence and fixing the grammatical structure. High Tech - Again, not suggested that it is not buildable by mercenaries. Barracks - I suggest you remove the Saboteur hint (it is available in the IX description anyway) since it also appears in the earlier missions, when supposedly it shouldn't be available WOR - "remind them OF their desert sietches" (without the OF it doesn't really make sense) Mission 3 - normally the fremen have no access to Heavy Tanks (I haven't checked whether a Heavy Factory is present on the map). If no Heavy Factory is buildable in the mission I wonder why it appears in the Mentat menu :) Mission 1 - I suggest you add a Startport entry too in the menu because even though it is not yet buildable, such a building appears on the map and a description of its functionality would be nice. Devastators - object THE use Mission 8 image - image suggestion - Deviator (Fremen already used in Mission 2 I think) Fremen Wall - mentioned to be useless, yet the Fremen can still build walls :) Advice Mission 6 - Place Rocket Turrets (see Sardaukar note) Tank - though they are toys, they are mentioned as having useful properties (and is not implied that they are unbuildable) - also appear placed on the map in numerous maps - 9,8,7,6 Devastator - Many SIETCHES AND VILLAGES HAVE BEEN destroyed Siege Tanks - it is mentioned the use of Combat Tanks by the Atreides instead yet none of them is available to the Fremen and I haven't seen the Atreides faction actually playable in the Fremen mission :) -Daelin

Just noticed that the mentat advices and descriptions of units and structures are sometimes inaccurate. I will make a list and send you the inconsistencies. -Daelin

Is there any way to actually check how the Harkonnen Missile accuracy works? Sounds like complex work, but I thought maybe this could be tested somehow. Because I heard rumors such as "The shorter the distance the greater the accuracy" and "the more explored the area, the greater the accuracy" but I haven't verified any of those. And also, is there an accuracy parameter somewhere? Maybe something which the missile and deviator rockets also have somewhere. Would be cool to check. :) -Daelin

Hmm.... well then how about keeping both turrets and CY in mind as top priorities for the AI? That way if the AI would have to choose which one to go for, they would randomly pick either the turrets or the CY. Or maybe make the CY only slightly more threatful than the turrets and see how the computer behaves (a difference of lets say 10 points?). The computer seems to somehow choose them pseudo-randomly, but yet keeping distance to the objective somehow in mind as well. The best way to test this is with your own 'thopters. I used to have a modified "Ordos Mission 8 on Harkonnen region" map, where I swapped the harkonnen base with the ordos, made sure they atreides can't build any ornis, and reduced their cost and build time to 1. And voila, you're up for some heavy testing. I don't really have time to do this. The Assembly course is killing me and I don't understand anything from that gibberish. :) Oh and btw, don't be so sure that ornis are useless when attacking your opponent. They are useful when it comes to making a Saboteur attack. In mission 8 I destroyed the Atreides CY with a Saboteur by first sending an Orni and then quickly sending my Saboteur for the construction yard. It's quite a fun strategy, actually! There is a problem though with units threat levels, as units can be moved across the map and could be useful to attract enemy units as well into a trap. Though keeping in mind that you actually need to keep the spice production up, you'd need to have atleast one harvester out mining. :) Oh, sorry about that. Felt "Flibble" was a bit more familiar, but if you don't like it, I'll tell you MrFlibble from now on. :) -Daelin

Actually they will.... both your ornithopters and the opponent's go for the turrets.

Flibble, keep in mind that any modifications you make to the threat levels will also affect YOUR ornithopters, meaning that instead of prioritizing useful buildings, they will now also go for turrets (which are impossible to destroy this way) => Ornis become quite useless. Also, it would be nice to check units' threat level too (if you haven't already done that, because i know you mentioned something in the investigation thread about the buildings but nothing about the units). For instance, I remember that in Dune 2000 Harvesters were quite a prioritary target for the opponent. Maybe you should put harvesters at the same threat level with refineries. That way the opponent would go for your spice production very "efficiently", so to speak.

Actually this observation was related to techtree limitations and nothing more. The computer is just as stupid when playing harkonnen, ordos or atreides. I wonder if that Lemon Factor was actually implemented in the game. If modifying its values heavily does nothing then it's probably unused. Segra and his assembly magic may help here more. -Daelin