Remember America, TSC Campaign, Odd Results

[loco_motive]

(NB this thread has been expanded to cover the zero train technique of slaving all AI companies to the player's boss company)

 

This scenario is pretty well covered in another thread that didn't survive the transfer to this forum. I discovered this in the process of doing the campaign with fewest trains, but thought this was too unusual to be buried in whatever I finally post for fewest trains.

#17 Remember America: Pure $25M PNW scenario, 1/2039-12/2059 (21 yrs), gold checked EOY. I posted an early win jpeg in the thread cited above.

I tried to do this one on Medium difficulty without owning any trains by starting a company, building some track and stations, then resigning before buying any engines, and thereafter just dealing in the stock market. There are no outstanding shares long before the end. The AI's are too conservative to damage playing this way.

For game 1, there was a boom near the end, but it did slip into recession mid-game. At least 2 of the AI's were very active buyers throughout and very difficult to keep up with. For game 2, I kept the game in boom for the last 8-9 years and it was pretty healthy in all other years. The AI's hardly bought anything, even though they are exactly the same ones. The first company shown is the one I started. The next 2 in each game started in the same place, the last ones have different starting locations.

I have 2 major observations from the results shown below:

(1) The market value gets shared up amongst too many for anyone to get as much as $25M playing this way, so I don't believe it can be won this way. Might play bertter on hard though if there is a better income multiplier for the AI's.

(2) These results of the 2 games seem too disparate to me, although I have not pinpointed any cause, so I better not draw any conclusions about it just yet. This is not the first instance I have seen of this and iirc someone else mentioned a suspicion of this elsewhere too.

Game 1: PNW's: 7.6, 4.8, 11.0, 2.0, 8.3, total 33.8. BV's: 7.4, 8.9, 8.3, 4.5, total 29.1.
Game 2: PNW's: 11.5, 4.2, 2.4, 0.7, 0.2, total 19.0. BV's: 4.2, 6.2, 3.6, 5.3, total 19.3

I had thought of looking more closely at the actual revenue modifiers being used in the 2 games, but so far have not convinced myself to delve so deeply into it.

[djf01]

Well, I'm about to give up on this.  I've tried for 3 sittings now to win this scenario with zero trains.  The closest I came was I got to PNW of $20mil in a boom with 4 years to go, but the economy was in recession by the end of the set period and I was down to bronze :-(.

Most of the PNW boosting tricks I know just don't work if you can't be the chairman of a profitable (ie one with trains) company.  Actually that gives me an idea ....

Loco is right about the AI lines not being profitable enough to generate the $25mil of PNW.  The bigger they get, the less efficiently they operate, and they eventually trade well below their CBV.

The strategies I've tried so far are:

- Start a company immediately, sell all my stock, build Lincohama to Durant with Hotelled stations at each end, then do nothing for two years (other than invest in the stock market).  I then resign as chairman.  The AI will use it's unlimited overdraft to buy 2 or 3 engines.  I buy back in big time just as these trains reach their destinations.  Earns $3-$5mil in PNW in a few years.  But .... I can't repeat the trick because my rating as a chairman is shot to pieces and I can only raise 50% of the capital I put in as fresh equity :-(.

- Stag profits from creating a successful AI.  I start a new company with a point to point route that is a reasonable starting position.  I build the line and stations with hotels, then resign.  I let the AI run trains and if I've set it up correctly it is spectacularly profitable for the first few years (at least until the AI tried to extend and operate a more complicated system), and I double my money.

Unfortunately the AI doesn't always get or use it's magic overdraft to buy engines :-(.

I'm starting to think I should start an investment company, that owns industries, and set up AI lines that just service my industries.  I can remain the chairman of this company that only owns industries, and perhaps the odd bit of track if I could force the AI to use it, and preserve my market reputation.

Once I've done that, I could regularly create cashbox companies, let them fester, then merge them into my investment vehicle.  I *think* this method can "create" up to $2mil of wealth every time it's pulled (the limiting factor is a new company can't raise more than $4mil of public funds in it's IPO), which is every 2 years. 

That - combined with profits from passive share market investing should be enough.  Maybe tomorrow, if I could be bothered.

[loco_motive]

Maybe tomorrow, if I could be bothered.

lol me too, so I think I'll amend the first post in the Classic thread showing missing train counts and post what I have so far in a TSC campaign thread.

I've tried the resigning after 2 years and the resigning right away to no particular avail as well, although note that if you resign right away, your company gets all territory rights as soon as another company is formed, so maybe a different game would ensue if you built nothing and resigned just before the others were formed. I also tried starting and resigning from a second company but that company ended up going bankrupt, probably because I had to buy it rights and it got a poor start when it finally did decide to start. Maybe if the first company starts elsewhere, the second company coud be started without any new rights.

In both my games, Jay Gould didn't start a company. If he did, in a good location, would provide some additional wealth to divide up, but probably not enough.

I'm still concerned about the wide variation in the AI aggressiveness in buying stock and the wide variation in total CBV developed in my 2 games though. It would be interesting if you could post results like mine for your attempts if you have them.

[djf01]

I've tried the resigning after 2 years and the resigning right away to no particular avail as well,

Then one advantage of resigning right away is you can float a bond, buy back some stock and start the game with more PNW than the AIs.  If I do this, I can have 4k shares in the Chicago Milwaukee when the AI manager has only 2k.  It's a great head start, but that's not enough to get to 25mil.

probably because I had to buy it rights and it got a poor start when it finally did decide to start. Maybe if the first company starts elsewhere, the second company coud be started without any new rights.

With the companies I created I did all the building, just resigned before creating any trains.  Probably not quite in the spirit of zero trains, but ...  At least the AI line gets a reasonable first start.

I'm still concerned about the wide variation in the AI aggressiveness in buying stock and the wide variation in total CBV developed in my 2 games though.

PNW varies greatly with the state of the economy, and just plain luck.  The AIs are such incompetent managers of their companies, how well they do can be quite variable.  And because they are running on low margins, they are very susceptible to the state of the economy.  And this effect is greatly leveraged by personal debt.

It would be interesting if you could post results like mine for your attempts if you have them.

Interesting is not the word for my attempts: embarrassing is the right word :-).

[djf01]

OK, got the gold in 2055 without every buying, building or so much as touching a single train.

If you don't want to know how, stop reading now!

1) Create a company and lay track between Witchita & Lincohoma. 

2) Build small stations within the bounds of these cities (so the AI won't grab them), but so they don't capture *any* resources. 

3) Buy back a fair chunk of my own stock with company money, then sell out personally.

4) Invest agressively in the stock market, particularly the Chicago Milwaukee startup.

5) Wait 2 years, the create a new company an create a new line from Lincohoma to Witchata.  Arange it so trains couls use the route layed down by Company A if it wanted to.

6) Using manager shopping, fit out stations at each city with the full array of Hotels.

7) Resign as Chairman, The AI in company B will/should use it's magic overdraft to buy some new trains and start running them.

8) When Company B has earned back it's engine cost and has positive cash (year or two), buy up all of company A's stock (should be close to worthless by now), reassume control of company B, and bulldoze a section of Company B's track between Lincohama and Witchata.  Reassume chairmanship of Company A.

Company B's trains then happily re-route themselve over company A's track.  Company A ollects bucket loads of cash for doing SFA.

9) Repeat the exercise between Old Topeka and Durrant.

I tried a short AI line from 2 oil wells to an oil refinery at Witchita, but this failed miserably.  The AI set up "a wait till full" route backhauling diesel from the refinery to the oil wells.  It worked for a while, until one of the other AI's hauled a load of diesel out of Witchita and the oil hauling AI froze until it was bankrupted then dissolved.  This didn't do much for my refinery investment :-).

And my cashboxes didn't really work either.  Once there is a station at all the towns in "the troubled lands", the AI shouldn't be able to build track.  But I forgot and later create another company, and my cashbox started spending it's money laying track.  Fortunately, it also decided to buy back a huge wad of it's own stock, doubling the share price of my "investment" in it.

[loco_motive]

The AI in company B will/should use it's magic overdraft to buy some new trains and start running them....When Company B has earned back it's engine cost reassume control of company B

Great idea djf01 putting most of the cargo revenue in one company and most of the expenses in another. But when you take over company B, you are charged with using its trains. Still, there must be a modification that will work, and indeed there is!

--------------------------------------------------------

Here is a brief description of my attempt, with all the "standard" details omitted.

I created company A right away and built 1 small station in Lincomaha and resigned. When the AI companies formed, A was given full rights to all territories but did nothing.

In 1/41, I created company B and built stations in Lincomaha, Old Topeka and Wichita, and track out of them, etc. Then I bought into and entered company A to do what needed to be done, both before and after company B bought his engines.

In 1/43, I repeated this with company C, buying rights and building stations in Tulsa, Springfield and Bonne Terre, and track out of them, etc.  Then I went into A to do what I had to do.

In 1/45, I was ready to do it all again but discovered I would get gold 12/45 whether I did or didn't make another company and whether I did or didn't let it run on its own or run on company A's track.

Pretty devastating method, that! Too devastating!

The picture is a spoiler, if you haven't figured it out.

[loco_motive]

I had some further thoughts on this method, so thought I'd put them down here just to keep the forum alive.

This method seems to be most useful for this combination of goals, namely high PNW and/or a high income that is independent of the number of trains. It seems that a number of scenarios can use this method, including TSC #14 with 1 train. Perhaps even Classic #10 with no trains at all; that would present more interesting challenge for sure.

The method essentially leaves all the high engine and fuel costs in the AI, to be offset by the AI getting all the station income from the station upgrades. There might even be some advantage to not buying any station upgrades as long as the company doesn't get liguidated.

You get more advantage from the AI income multiplier since you don't need to reenter the AI company to get some of its cash. As we know from previous studies, the longer you stay out of a company with no director the more income it gets from its cargos, although never nearly as much as one with an AI director gets.

Your own company is unable to make any growth of its own and both the player and the company could become too cash heavy.

It seems to me that this method might be able to produce just as early a high PNW finish as wide open play except perhaps that you can only start a new company every 2 years.

Of course this method can be combined with other methods at any time, not just in special cases.

[djf01]

Your own company is unable to make any growth of its own and both the player and the company could become too cash heavy.

Ohh tell me about.  It's such a terrible problem to have, especially outside the game :-).

It seems to me that this method might be able to produce just as early a high PNW finish as wide open play except perhaps that you can only start a new company every 2 years.

It's the fastest way I know of the create PNW (and CBV for that matter) in the game.  It works a lot better if you can own and/or control the AI company running the trains, but letting the AI do it isn't much worse.  And the cruel thing about it is the "harder" level you've set, the more effective it is.

When pulling this trick in an unrestricted game I like to keep the hotels in my company (they generate a huge % return).  It's better that the AI stooge loses money so it doesn't get the opportunity to try and build it's own routes.

[djf01]

But when you take over company B, you are charged with using its trains. Still, there must be a modification that will work, and indeed there is!

Loco, I've re-read this post, and can't quite work out how your approach is different from mine.  How did you re-route B's trains over A's track if you did not resume control of it *after* it had created it's trains?

You are right, I didn't feel comfortable that I'd done it truely "zero trains" if I was chairman of a train owning company, even if the game was paused the whole time and I didn't touch the trains.

The problem I found was the AI would not buy it's own trains over other tracks (other than the odd cell here and there).

I think I have another solution to that though (which may or may not be what you've done, I'm not sure because I don't think I understood it properly).

The idea is: A lays all the track, plus one full cell (and two halves) of track on the parallel route of B.

B lays it's routes so that trains can run on A's main route, or on B's main route.  But B's main route includes that special 1 cell of A's track. 

Befoer B gets a chance to do anything, switch back to A.

B should still create and run trains.  Once it does this, bulldoze A's one and only cell in B's route, and B's trains are then forced to use A's track.  I can't say I've had the inclination to test this though.

[loco_motive]

How did you re-route B's trains over A's track if you did not resume control of it *after* it had created it's trains?

Well, I never tell all the first time. I thought the picture would explain it but perhaps its too small. Notice the slightly brighter color of the track on either side of the bulldosed area, That whole strip was company A track, just long enough so it could be bulldosed., 4 sections needed.

Another condition was that the route on company A's track not be useable until company B buys its engines. I went so far as to have it not connected to B's track at all, in lieu of further testing.

So in other words, to get company B running on Company A's track:

While in company B lay the route using company B track except for a 4-section gap of 1/2-1-1-1-1/2. You can also double track the part of B's track coming out of the stations that will still be used later.

Then come back into company A and lay 4 sections of track in the gap. Go off pause until B buys its engines. Then pause again and lay the route you want using Company A's track. Once B's trains go past the gap to the other station, bulldose it.

Of course you could also do this before they reach the gap if you are particularly greedy and make any other bulldosable crossover onto A's track. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't.