paul_of_arrakis Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Is there a god? (christian)For-the existance of the bible-paleys watch (world needs a maker, just like a watch)-complexity of the worldAgainst-suffering-big bang theoryetc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 The thing about the analog of the watch in the desert, is that it isn't a very good one (it is used against the occurrence evolution and for creationism). For it to be a logically sensible analogy, many things must be in common, not just one part. For one, the watch evolved into what it is in the desert, from very primitive designs - like fossils - to the more complex today - like us, it wasn't created all at once. If we move with the analogy, well-designed creations which is what the watch is analogous to, can be produced naturally through small incremental steps - no outside being required. I feel a debate about to brew just about this...How does complexity favor god? If you say that there could not be certain complexes without god, this is where we get into the fact that many things have had different functions previously, before switching its function to what it is today. So it isn't baffling that those complexes can be reducible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidu Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edric O Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Well, Mike, people have been asking themselves this question for over 5000 years now...And we still have no definite answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I haven't quite made up my mind. First I want to read the bible, but my parents would sorta be surprised if I take one in our house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_of_arrakis Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 its other peoples opinions that make this interesting, not that no one knowsmine is that god does exist, whats the piont in the bible if it has no purpouse?surely the old testament would have had to be really important to be written down by hand in greek, so it must be god who made it so important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Purpose? Hmm, control over the masses? A way to explain things around them using superstition? To express artistic feelings? Also, the maniscripts were written by many different people, after Jesus' death. Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edric O Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Controlling the masses? Ummm, what masses? There were no more than a handful of Christians in the early days, and they also didn't have a very high life expectancy, if you know what I mean...Still, controlling the masses by DYING has got to be a novel idea... ::) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Edric, I said it as a possibility, and said who knows, sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edric O Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 And I just showed you that it is not actually a possibility. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 It is definitely a possibility, what better method of control than to make the masses do what you want for fear of going to hell? But we don't know exactly, so it's a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edric O Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Well, yeah, but what good will that do you if you're DEAD? Somehow, I don't think a plan for controlling the masses which involves you dying is a very feasible one...Or a plan which only involves any kind of control after 300 years of persecution, for that matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Jesus didn't make the bible. So who else died? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edric O Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Oh, no one in particular... unless you count the Apostles who were captured, tortured and executed by the Emperor's guards for preaching against the Roman gods... and their followers who were used for entertainment in the ring. You know, the lion-ripping-apart-prisoner kind of entertainment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 mmm Sounds like funPeople die in most religions doesnt make them trueIs this topic specifically Christian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Still, controlling the masses by DYING has got to be a novel idea... ::)Oh, no one in particular... unless you count the Apostles who were captured, tortured and executed by the Emperor's guards for preaching against the Roman gods... and their followers who were used for entertainment in the ring. You know, the lion-ripping-apart-prisoner kind of entertainment.You must remember the bible is the only "proof" that any of this ever happened.So Mike, people have been debating whether there is a god, several gods, whatever for thousands of years; it's not getting anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Is there a god? (christian)For-the existance of the biblea book is hardly evidence-paleys watch (world needs a maker, just like a watch)Why does it need a creator? Can you specifically and conclusively debunk ANY stage in this naturalistic process?-complexity of the worldHow does this prove God? We witness increasing complexity through completely naturalistic causes all the time.Against-suffering-big bang theoryetcThere is no proof against God, because the existance of God is unfalsifiable. However, there is ample evidence against the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital Guerrilla Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 What is the purpose of God or a god? If we have free will then what is this beings point/purpose for us? I know some will not question this but if you believe in something wouldn't you want to know what it is actually? I am not asking these questions to have people give their definitive answers but to generate conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneezer3 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 You must remember the bible is the only "proof" that any of this ever happened.An athiest has no other explanation of how we got here. and there are many proofs of God's word, athiests that have set out to disprove it have ended up beliveing it, and athiests before they died(lots of famus ones) were no longer athiests.How does this prove God? We witness increasing complexity through completely naturalistic causes all the time.The more complexty the more likelyer it is there was a designer.What is the purpose of God or a god? If we have free will then what is his point for us? It all started in the Garden of Eden when man sined otherwise there isn't much a point. i think you know were i'm going... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 An athiest has no other explanation of how we got here. and there are many proofs of God's word, athiests that have set out to disprove it have ended up beliveing it, and athiests before they died(lots of famus ones) were no longer athiests.Atheists have theories of the origin of species, I'm curious why you think otherwise? There are christians who study atheism and/or evolution and become atheists, what does this prove? It can go either way. Crying out to god before dying is a common thing, even among atheists because we panic when we know death is coming soon. We don't want it to end, we want something more. We don't want to die. When we panic, all reasoning leaves the brain, and we cry out to god for help. We being those who did it. This proves nothing. The more complexty the more likelyer it is there was a designer.This is pure speculation of course. Your uneducated opinion. Complexity does not beg a designer, many simple compounds come together to form complex molecules all the time - basic chemistry - any of this can be naturally produced. Sometimes Sneezer, you make it too easy ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurlyPIG Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I do not believe there is one. There is no objective reason to, so I do not. Sure there are things we can't explain, but over time what was assumed the work of a diety has since been found to be caused naturally by other forces in the world. Hell, even I have some ideas that might be considered unearthly, but believing in a single being of absolute power and omnipotence that does not make itself apparent in the slightest way just seems too tall a tale to be true. (like my alliteration ;D ?)In my opinion, of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital Guerrilla Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 What is the purpose of God or a god? If we have free will then what is his point for us? It all started in the Garden of Eden when man sined otherwise there isn't much a point. i think you know were i'm going...Ok so what of the garden of Eden. You have Adam and Eve correct. Why did God not tell them about the being known as Satan? It was ok to say do not eat from the tree but why also say by the way Satan has been 'allowed' to enter this garden and try to deceive you. Don't listen to him. Where was the trust (in God) suppose to come from? Yes they were told not to eat the fruit from the tree but like all children they are still curious and the first nature is always to ask more questions. Before the conversation goes in a certain direction I will say this (IMO) Adam and Eve were both guilty Eve for the obvious she ate the fruit and Adam for eating the fruit. Adam could have refused so could have Eve. What the devil did was provide an answer to one of their questions. Satan played on their lack of understanding about what God had told them and what questions they had not asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyarlathotep Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Ok so what of the garden of Eden. You have Adam and Eve correct. Why did God not tell them about the being known as Satan? It was ok to say do not eat from the tree but why also say by the way Satan has been 'allowed' to enter this garden and try to deceive you. Don't listen to him. Where was the trust (in God) suppose to come from? Yes they were told not to eat the fruit from the tree but like all children they are still curious and the first nature is always to ask more questions. Before the conversation goes in a certain direction I will say this (IMO) Adam and Eve were both guilty Eve for the obvious she ate the fruit and Adam for eating the fruit. Adam could have refused so could have Eve. What the devil did was provide an answer to one of their questions. Satan played on their lack of understanding about what God had told them and what questions they had not asked. Remember that "Satan" was at that time known as an Angel "guarding" Earth (hence why God didn't tell them about Satan). It got power hungry and decived Eve to take the fruit. Adam was told that they could eat all the food, except for that one tree. It was the responsibility of Adam (and Eve) to not eat from that tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 You must remember the bible is the only "proof" that any of this ever happened.An athiest has no other explanation of how we got here. and there are many proofs of God's word, athiests that have set out to disprove it have ended up beliveing it, and athiests before they died(lots of famus ones) were no longer athiests.E-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n? The B-I-G B-A-N-G? Those ring a bell? ::) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caid Ivik Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Is there a god? (christian)Against-suffering-big bang theoryetcSuffering was created by humans and Satan, with will independent on God (altough our free will was created by Him). And also something had to start that Big Bang. Maybe even no one even found the etymological reason of the word "God".About that fruit eaten by Eva and Adam, you should see some symbols here. First, it could be some revelation, for example opening last barrier in our mind which was: the will to RULE. That's the will, making us more and more evil. Satan told Eva and by her to Adam how to be like God, and they fallen to this seducement. He wasn't a guardian of Earth. He was a high archangel, which refused to fall on knees before God's main creation, the human (as written in Quran), and seeks a vengeance for that, what should it feel like betrayal of God to higher being, what Satan, however, is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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