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Fey

[WIP] Heighliner Tileset

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I already tried in the past, but feel free to do it yourself, maybe I did something wrong.

But overall those are loaded from a skirmis variable or something like that; too lazy to check no. At least I remember the sideiconbar (or something like that) when you can force everyone to use the 4 unit-in-screen, you know, you cannot produce a trooper and a tank at the same time withouth scrolling the icons on the tab.

That 640x400 thing might be useful to force the authentic difficulty in a campaign map. :P The resolution increase is also a difficulty decrease lol

I arranged some crates, but check this out:

https://i.imgur.com/0kkYVdm.png
https://i.imgur.com/RC27eoe.png

Note that as the thick center tile, I put a lot of crates in that one tile. Most of them are flattened, but the red ones are the normal size.

Turns out thin Spice only has one tile by default (the other sorts are placed on the map manually to test other terrain attributes). I don't know what the other two tiles are even for, given this. However, this idea is NOT a bust! There are a lot of tiles for thin Spice overall, so it's more like... the idea can still be done, but the tiles will need to be arranged so as to take advantage of as many tiles in the set as possible. The crates can be lined up in certain ways, you can put platform lights and other stuff in the middle of a depot, and there'll still be like 10k credits to gather from a field of crates around this size. It can look good.

Also pictured are the arranged borders. Many of the converted thin Spice tiles don't have crates on them, but they have the borders done, so you can see how the black & yellow border outlines only harvestable areas. Crates will be there in the working draft, obviously. The only tiles with crates are, once again, surrounded completely by harvestable tiles.

I'll see what else I can work up.

Edited by Fey

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Posted (edited)

@Cm_blast Got another test map worked up, this time for the hybrid resources system.

Supply Depot:
     These golden platforms on Heighliners, usually found near Mass Deposits, are designated zones for possibly massive stockpiles of valuable but limited supplies. Harvesters will feel more at home in these fields of crates, but be careful not to deplete them too quickly! Once gone, your only source of funds will be Mass Deposits, which have only so much space for Harvesters to extract Mass from.

Here's a download link, should be an easy copy+paste install like the last map. I sorted everything in the data folder. The latest copy of the tileset file is also included.
HybridResourcesTest.zip

Here are some map details for you and anyone else following this thread:

Spoiler

Some in-game screenshots:
https://prnt.sc/m3j1sb
https://prnt.sc/m3j229
https://prnt.sc/m3j2hz

Technical analysis:
This is a small Light II map - infantry and LAVs. I tried some new things with the terrain, like the elevated platform goes straight into the platform edge in places, so please let me know if anything looks out of place, graphically. Something functionally new was added as well! An infantry-only path, seen in the third screenshot linked above.

The main function of this test map is to determine the effectiveness of the hybrid resources system. There are only three Mass Deposits on the map, two of which are well into the enemy base. The enemy has one expendable Supply Depot he'll never make use of. Meanwhile, the player will have access to two expendable Supply Depots and the final Mass Deposit, which in theory should give him an early advantage and a major disadvantage later on. Please note that Mass takes slightly longer to gather, but is worth 125 credits per blob. This is intended to make the Supply Depots more valuable while they last and make it harder to extract from Mass Deposits.

Just another economy experiment. Maybe leaving it at normal gathering would be alright. We may want to keep experimenting with this sort of thing just in case there's a new formula that works better with this tileset.

Once again, this is a test map meant to demonstrate the perks and flaws of this system. There may be errors all over the place and there may even be a cruddy design decision made explicitly for the purpose of demonstration (like Harvesters from the top left Supply Depot wanting to go to enemy territory after it's depleted). Please take note of whatever mistakes you find so you can avoid them in your own maps!

Strategy:
This map should not be difficult. Take your starting units, including the Quads delivered to you right away, and head over the bridge to see the only Ordos base on the map. The Ordos are mining from a nearby Mass Deposit and will organize resistance if given the chance! Take down the Wind Trap right away to cripple their production and shut down the Rocket Turret, then finish the Barracks. They'll sell everything and you'll get a couple of MCVs.

Set one up near the Supply Depot at the start position and take the other down near the ruins of the Ordos base. While you set up your own base, make sure you head to the left side of the Base Platform formerly occupied by the Ordos to discover an Atreides Freighter and a generous helping of long range artillery units. There's an artillery platform beside the bridge the Harkonnen will need to cross to attack you, so take advantage of it and you'll be able to build up in peace. Screenshot below:
https://prnt.sc/m3n3r8

Note that this formation causes enemy units to glitch out. It probably means more space to move is needed on a vehicle artillery platform; an infantry-only platform should need only one tile. Anyway, they'll eventually path over to your LRA, but they'll get a little stuck along the way. Not for long, but long enough to be noticeable. Also pictured is the ideal place to drop your first Refinery! Always use Mass Deposits until they can't keep up with your unit production, and then you should use your Supply Depots to power your production to max.

Don't take too long to attack or you'll run out of Mass. Your only infinite reinforcements come every few minutes or so after you've put up an Outpost, and it's not enough if your Supply Depots are exhausted.

When you are ready, head over the second bridge. You'll find an infantry only path facing your attack vector while your LAVs have to head around the side under the fire of turrets. You'll meet some resistance while you push into the base, but there are some infantry-only tiles scattered around the Harkonnen base you can use to help counter their reinforcements. And, you'll find some more tanks in a Harkonnen Freighter across the bridge behind their ConYard, so you'll be fine once you grab those and turn them on the Harkonnen. Destroy all of their structures to win the mission!

Have fun, and please don't forget to provide feedback on this thread. Since this is a WIP tileset, mapping with it is still rough around the edges and we'd all benefit from knowing better what to do more of and what to never do again. Thanks!

Edited by Fey

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2 hours ago, Fey said:

Got another test map worked up, this time for the hybrid resources system.

Wow, looks so ugly opening directly with the editor (and nothing applie yet); I guess this is a better version of the already preexisted, right? I will aply and try later.

I guess I also should overwrite tilefey.bin and the other stuff, or doesn't matter?

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Those crates looks good, at least on the screenshot; I am guessing they are still automatelly created, although on the editor all will look the same. By chance you tried to add a bloom? would be hilarious looking at an explosion and creates appearing out of nowhere.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Wow, looks so ugly opening directly with the editor (and nothing applie yet); I guess this is a better version of the already preexisted, right? I will aply and try later.

I guess I also should overwrite tilefey.bin and the other stuff, or doesn't matter?

Aye, everything needs to be updated. By the way, the tilefey.bin file I discovered needs to have an eight letter name; I was encountering problems with TILEATR10 and on. It's the attributes file that determines tile behavior (what's impassable, what slows units down, etc). Maybe it was something else, but it might be the name after all.

The .r8 and .r16 files are the map image files to load the tileset in-game. Those and the .bin are all that's needed to make the tileset work.

Also, I forgot to mention, but I fixed up the Launch Pad to your specifications. It now has more space for units to land!

8 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Those crates looks good, at least on the screenshot; I am guessing they are still automatelly created, although on the editor all will look the same. By chance you tried to add a bloom? would be hilarious looking at an explosion and creates appearing out of nowhere.

Thanks! And, that's correct; in the editor, it uses one sprite for all the crates, but in-game it shows up like that. Blooms don't work at all because of the Thick Spice tiles being infinite, but I did place them and remove Infinite Spice to test how the crates look. They've since been removed.

Because nothing regenerates, all the tiles have a linear path of progression to depletion. I tried to make it so the piles of crates vary in appearance, but are also consistent as they're being harvested. For instance, here's the main crates pile tile highlighted in blue. Above it are four more variations of the tile where one corner is harvested, like so:
https://prnt.sc/m3my3s

Ex:
H C C
C C C
C C C


The above example can be seen in the top left tile in that screenshot.

In this example, that tile would have formerly been the one highlighted in bright blue, but the tile to the top left has been harvested. This causes it to lose two crates in the top left corner of the sprite. The other corners have similar outcomes and you can find a 9x9 formation in the bottom left corner of the map, in one of the player's Supply Depots, if you want to have a look in-game for yourself.

So... if there are four blue crates, two red crates, and two brown crates in a tile, harvesting the tile next to it won't spontaneously add crates. They'll only disappear. They may be rearranged slightly depending on the spots harvested, but that should be about it.

Also, I found a pathing glitch with the LRA platform and edited it under the spoiler in the previous post, in the "Strategy" section. Screenshot included. I knew the LRA platform would be OP on this map; it's more intended for bigger maps with more tanks and stuff. I put it here for the sake of showing the player its potency when used to great effect, but for it to be okay versus the AI, the AI needs better access to it (like it's accessible from both sides of the bridge) or just more space to move in general. If it's going to be accessible from both sides, I guess the LRA platform's access point should be further up from where the bridge is. Maybe then the AI will prefer to go over the bridge anyway. A player would know that the narrow entrance is a death trap.

Also-also, resource balancing appears to work out. The initial Refinery, 2x Harvesters and the Mass Deposit aren't enough to keep the economy going with 3 Light Factories and 3 Barracks. The Supply Depots are harvested very quickly if used first, but that's the point; they're expendable but powerful boosts to the economy, the player is supposed to make significant progress or expand before they're depleted. One MD and one SD at the start, 2x Refs / 3x Harvs is too fast, but can keep up with 3x LFs and 3x 'Rax. And, if you set up 3x Refs and 4x Harvs (2 on the MD, 1 on the top SD, 1 on the bottom SD), that actually outpaces the production of 3x LFs and 3x Rax. The hybrid system is looking pretty good, but I'll wait to hear back from you on how your run goes. :)

Edited by Fey

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3 hours ago, Fey said:

Aye, everything needs to be updated. By the way, the tilefey.bin file I discovered needs to have an eight letter name; I was encountering problems with TILEATR10 and on. It's the attributes file that determines tile behavior (what's impassable, what slows units down, etc). Maybe it was something else, but it might be the name after all.

You tried using less than 8 characters? Maybe this is the classical ms-dos/win95 limitation, where anything with more than 8 characters it's not reconized by the program/game. Usually smaller names works fine, but I think that call them "tile<custom>" makes easy to know that this is a custom file, much like custom text.uib so tilefey it's fine with me, or tilefey2-9.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Thanks! And, that's correct; in the editor, it uses one sprite for all the crates, but in-game it shows up like that. Blooms don't work at all because of the Thick Spice tiles being infinite, but I did place them and remove Infinite Spice to test how the crates look. They've since been removed.

They still can work if the sand around don't allow to create thick spice. 2 wide of sand will prevent that to happen, but I am not talking about visual fitting or not, but if you ever try, just for curiosity, what will happen when you explote a bloom.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Because nothing regenerates, all the tiles have a linear path of progression to depletion. I tried to make it so the piles of crates vary in appearance, but are also consistent as they're being harvested. For instance, here's the main crates pile tile highlighted in blue. Above it are four more variations of the tile where one corner is harvested, like so:
https://prnt.sc/m3my3s

That's interesting indeed. I really want to tried it myself.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

You tried using less than 8 characters? Maybe this is the classical ms-dos/win95 limitation, where anything with more than 8 characters it's not reconized by the program/game. Usually smaller names works fine, but I think that call them "tile<custom>" makes easy to know that this is a custom file, much like custom text.uib so tilefey it's fine with me, or tilefey2-9.

Ah no, I never tried less than eight characters. I figured I'd stick with the standard 8 so nothing breaks and that'll be that. And, I know it won't overwrite anything with this name. :D

6 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

They still can work if the sand around don't allow to create thick spice. 2 wide of sand will prevent that to happen, but I am not talking about visual fitting or not, but if you ever try, just for curiosity, what will happen when you explote a bloom.

Ah, you're right.

Aye, it's still the sandy visual. The bloom sprite is done up in the data.r16 file, like craters, so it'll be a Spice bloom on the golden platform. The golden platform will act like sand and the bloom will restore SD crates and MD pads as though they were Spice.

Speaking of visuals, the golden platform isn't the perfect color for sandy craters, but hopefully it's close enough. I tried to stick with a color that looked good with the rest of the tileset, but something you could also sink a few craters into without it looking abyssmal. It's not nearly as good as the Base Platform and its orange rocky craters, and I don't have an excuse lorewise like "Base Platform has unique properties that simulate the rock on Arrakis, allowing for the use of standard base structures," but it's better than having a sandy pit of Spice on a Heighliner.

If you'd like me to try brightening the platform color a bit, let me know if it's really that bad and I'll adjust it. :)

Against AI opponents, I plan to make them stick strictly to Mass Deposits if possible and leave Supply Depots for the player to expand to and harvest, and different platforming will be used to lead up to Mass Deposits. So, you may not encounter these craters too often! Either you'll be attacking enemy AIs' Harvesters on non-destructible platform, or the enemy AI will need to attack your Harvesters as they're visiting a Supply Depot, which will only be for so long because they can be depleted.

13 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

That's interesting indeed. I really want to tried it myself.

The new map is up in one of my previous posts on this page. I'll be around for a while, so, uhh, just let me know how it goes when you get the chance to give it a run! It's a pretty short map, so feel free to start it again in a few different ways, see what happens if you use that Supply Depot first over the Mass Deposit.

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3 hours ago, Fey said:

Ah no, I never tried less than eight characters. I figured I'd stick with the standard 8 so nothing breaks and that'll be that. And, I know it won't overwrite anything with this name. :D

Probably will work; There are games from the win95/98 era that need to be at root of "C:"  (On another letter doesn't work) and, if the folder it's more than 8 doesn't install; and Dune 2000 itself it's indeed a old game, so probably follow the same rule.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

Aye, it's still the sandy visual. The bloom sprite is done up in the data.r16 file, like craters, so it'll be a Spice bloom on the golden platform. The golden platform will act like sand and the bloom will restore SD crates and MD pads as though they were Spice.

Yes, I know, I was just refering to the result on the "sand", if the crates appears with more logic or not.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

The new map is up in one of my previous posts on this page. I'll be around for a while, so, uhh, just let me know how it goes when you get the chance to give it a run! It's a pretty short map, so feel free to start it again in a few different ways, see what happens if you use that Supply Depot first over the Mass Deposit.

Yes, I already download the stuff, I have 1 map left to play, so once I finish that one I will go directly to try your map.

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Just now, Cm_blast said:

Probably will work; There are games from the win95/98 era that need to be at root of "C:"  (On another letter doesn't work) and, if the folder it's more than 8 doesn't install; and Dune 2000 itself it's indeed a old game, so probably follow the same rule.

Weird. XD

Just now, Cm_blast said:

Yes, I know, I was just refering to the result on the "sand", if the crates appears with more logic or not.

Oh, uhh, yeah, they also go up in density with similar logic. I tried to draw it professionally, but, ya know, I'm not a professional. :D I hope it still looks alright!

1 minute ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, I already download the stuff, I have 1 map left to play, so once I finish that one I will go directly to try your map.

Yee! I'll be here. :P

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Posted (edited)

I tried the map; I like how the crates looks and are pick up.

However there were a couple of problems I found.
First; this 

On 1/6/2019 at 12:22 AM, Fey said:

Looks really weird and took me a while to realize that my vehicles couldn't go over the tile at the bottom of the path only infantry; Looks like there is at least 1 open tile and, after trying for the 4º time I just pick up an unit, place the mouse on top of that tile to see a "you shall not pass". And of course, if that tile it's not transitable (because it's representing a high-tile that vehicles cannot go there even if the only infantry part wasn't there), then those only infantry area shouldn't be transitable either.

Either all those tiles are plain, so everyone could go for that "corner" tile, or nobody could go. <-- If you remember the original game, the top-left corner rift have his top-left corner tile it's transitable although it's part of a 2x2 rift.

Also; your map trigger a new and different error.
https://prnt.sc/m421wm

I tried to reload and change things, I am not really sure how to trigger, but seems like too many units in a reduced space for the player (me) was the problem, but not really because I'been in worts situations (and more cramped, even the AI gots more cramped in some other maps).
The first time I was harassing the enemy using infantry and troopers using the only infantry area, meanwhile I was producing light vehicles; the light factory was at the top-left corner, to the right a couple of windtraps and at the bottom the outpost; Could be I had too many vehicles there and when a new one was produced, crashed, but I rejected this becase I reloaded, built a new light factory into a more open area and still, when I tried to move a good amount of units from my base to the exit/entrance of the infantry path and the game crashed again.

The next time I move units in smaller groups and didn't crashed; but I don't know, it's not like I have 100 units and was trying to move them into a long-trip or something; so I am not sure exactly what happen, the trip was small and I may had 20-30 units selected at most; even if the path gots blocked they like to push each other or something, but I have no idea.

Could be something about the AI; maybe because I blocked the path with my units (while moving foward) they try to re-path this units or something.

I can't tell, this error it's totally new to me, and I made some maps with some narrow areas; just like Frank Herbert mission 14, one enemy base its' covered by a only entrance of 3 tiles wide; my units have tons of trouble to move into the area if I have selected a big group of vehicles, doing silly things and all, but never crashing; while here the amount of units were smaller and between 10-15 units are foot units, so they require much less space to navigate.

About the map itself; I would suggest to slowdown a bit the AI; I build 1 refinery and start building things; since my money eventually was going down I decided to build a new ref and start to harvest the crates; however I never got the change to look directly how the harvester and the crates looks while being harvesting, the never-ending waves of Harkonnen required my full attention.

And because the proportion you were using the Harkonnen keep training units non-stop using his emergency state, so although I had 10-12 infantry/troopers on the only infantry path and, didn't matter how many units I kill, Harkonnen keep producing more and more and, with those eventual devastators and stuff, I was constatly building infantry-troopers and moving 10-15 group of units to reinforce the path so took me a good amoung of time to start having some advantage; at the end I used all the light vehicles and the few heavy ones that survive to do the final strike,, but that's it, I could paid too much attention to details since the enemy were producing units non-stop (even if I didn't attack).

At the end, only when the Harkonnen have 2 silos left I send the three harvesters into the top area so I could see more relaxed at the harvester and crates interacting each other.
So, since this it's like a test map; would be better slowing down the AI even if the map became too easy; you can compesate by dropping extra units for the AI every 7 minutes or whatever, so they still do some big attacks from time to time; but the point should to let people to experiment to stuff withouth being too much worried to loose the map.

Edited by Cm_blast

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6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I tried the map; I like how the crates looks and are pick up.

Excellent! Then the update is a total success on the resources front. Functional and aesthetic!

How about the Launch Pad? Still looks alright? My edits are a little rough around the edges, but hopefully it maintains its looks while being more functional.

6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

However there were a couple of problems I found.
First; this 

Looks really weird and took me a while to realize that my vehicles couldn't go over the tile at the bottom of the path only infantry; Looks like there is at least 1 open tile and, after trying for the 4º time I just pick up an unit, place the mouse on top of that tile to see a "you shall not pass". And of course, if that tile it's not transitable (because it's representing a high-tile that vehicles cannot go there even if the only infantry part wasn't there), then those only infantry area shouldn't be transitable either.

Either all those tiles are plain, so everyone could go for that "corner" tile, or nobody could go. <-- If you remember the original game, the top-left corner rift have his top-left corner tile it's transitable although it's part of a 2x2 rift.

Aye, I noticed that as I was mapping it. Unfortunately, it's a one-tile cliff wall; the 2x2 cliff works because there's still a tile preventing weird unit movement, but if I make that tile anything but impassable, units can go straight up the wall at the corner. Which is more than a minor error! It could inadvertently create extra paths for vehicles in arrangements where that corner is not at the very end of the elevated platform wall.

Also, keeping the small corner tiles impassable preserves the illusion of height. Units need to funnel on to the terrain leading upwards or downwards. You know? If they cut the corner too sharp, it looks more flat as they move fluidly over the terrain. I mean, they need to path fluidly, so passable tiles need to be sufficient. It's just there needs to be that illusion of height for the map to look good in play.

On the plus side, seeing that in-game tells us it does look awkward so we know to avoid it in the future. Which is the purpose of this map - exploring what works and what doesn't with this tileset! Or, perhaps we could all reach a consensus that having multiple infantry-only tiles in a line on terrain like that means infantry-only, and nothing else. If a player sees that in enough maps, he'll get used to it. Anyway, you'll be happy to know that from the top or bottom directions, it does look a lot better! Here's an example: https://prnt.sc/m430tf

So, maybe we should stick with that sort of thing from now on. Orrrr... we could put it on a corner like this: https://prnt.sc/m48fu7

How about that?

8 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Also; your map trigger a new and different error.

https://prnt.sc/m421wm

I tried to reload and change things, I am not really sure how to trigger, but seems like too many units in a reduced space for the player (me) was the problem, but not really because I'been in worts situations (and more cramped, even the AI gots more cramped in some other maps).
The first time I was harassing the enemy using infantry and troopers using the only infantry area, meanwhile I was producing light vehicles; the light factory was at the top-left corner, to the right a couple of windtraps and at the bottom the outpost; Could be I had too many vehicles there and when a new one was produced, crashed, but I rejected this becase I reloaded, built a new light factory into a more open area and still, when I tried to move a good amount of units from my base to the exit/entrance of the infantry path and the game crashed again.

The next time I move units in smaller groups and didn't crashed; but I don't know, it's not like I have 100 units and was trying to move them into a long-trip or something; so I am not sure exactly what happen, the trip was small and I may had 20-30 units selected at most; even if the path gots blocked they like to push each other or something, but I have no idea.

Could be something about the AI; maybe because I blocked the path with my units (while moving foward) they try to re-path this units or something.I can't tell, this error it's totally new to me, and I made some maps with some narrow areas; just like Frank Herbert mission 14, one enemy base its' covered by a only entrance of 3 tiles wide; my units have tons of trouble to move into the area if I have selected a big group of vehicles, doing silly things and all, but never crashing; while here the amount of units were smaller and between 10-15 units are foot units, so they require much less space to navigate.

Holy shit, a NEW error? Well, I guess with new tilesets come new errors...

I guess for those of y'all reading this thread, we should try and make multiple paths to the destination and keep things a little more wide. Five tiles instead of four, or maybe two four-tile bridges.

I replayed the map just now and actually got that error. I dunno how I triggered it either. I wonder if it's related to the reinforcements on the Launch Pad at all... did you let them gather up?

8 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

About the map itself; I would suggest to slowdown a bit the AI; I build 1 refinery and start building things; since my money eventually was going down I decided to build a new ref and start to harvest the crates; however I never got the change to look directly how the harvester and the crates looks while being harvesting, the never-ending waves of Harkonnen required my full attention.

And because the proportion you were using the Harkonnen keep training units non-stop using his emergency state, so although I had 10-12 infantry/troopers on the only infantry path and, didn't matter how many units I kill, Harkonnen keep producing more and more and, with those eventual devastators and stuff, I was constatly building infantry-troopers and moving 10-15 group of units to reinforce the path so took me a good amoung of time to start having some advantage; at the end I used all the light vehicles and the few heavy ones that survive to do the final strike,, but that's it, I could paid too much attention to details since the enemy were producing units non-stop (even if I didn't attack).

So, since this it's like a test map; would be better slowing down the AI even if the map became too easy; you can compesate by dropping extra units for the AI every 7 minutes or whatever, so they still do some big attacks from time to time; but the point should to let people to experiment to stuff withouth being too much worried to loose the map.

Oh, sorry about that. I wanted to showcase the potential of the AI when using Mass Deposits, so I optimized it but gave it a limited economy at two Harvesters. Or so I thought. :D Did you move your LRA to the platform covering the bridge? I used that to make defending easy, but in the process I found another funny glitch. Here's a screenshot of the formation that does the glitch: https://prnt.sc/m3n3r8

Enemy units will just stop on the right side. I think they're trying to get to the tiles the tanks aren't in, since they're closest, but they're blocked from being in range and it's inaccessible due to unit placement. Aside from the sheer power of that artillery platform demonstrating the need for multiple pathways, it also indicates a need for either less space for LRA or more space for units to move. The former would probably be more fair.

Uhh... anyway, yeah, the point of the LRA platform was also to help a player dick around if he wants instead of attacking the enemy. If you arrange your LRA there on another run, you can pretty much ignore the Harkonnen entirely. In fact, here! I replayed the map yet again on normal difficulty at max speed, cleared it in 7:33, and you can see in the stats window at the end that the Supply Depots pushed me waaay ahead of the Harkonnen in economy. Like, 10k credits ahead. And because of the OP LRA platform, my KDR was over 2:1. Pretty crazy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILGKxw1fWyo

I'll edit this link into the OP as well so folks looking in to this thread can see that the tileset is done and functional. And, maybe it'll help give folks a better idea of what to do and what not to do when mapping with this thing... uhh, I'm not sure I really looked at the crates being harvested during this run, it was more to showcase their functionality than their appearance, but I do look at the crates without watching them being harvested, at least. :)

8 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

So, since this it's like a test map; would be better slowing down the AI even if the map became too easy; you can compesate by dropping extra units for the AI every 7 minutes or whatever, so they still do some big attacks from time to time; but the point should to let people to experiment to stuff withouth being too much worried to loose the map.

Oh, I'm glad you got to check out the crates harvesting anyway. Sorry again about the bother. XD Let me know if you check out that vid. It's less than ten minutes long and I commentate on the design throughout, so it should be a good reference! I also try to play without preknowledge, like I don't react to the Harkonnen armor delivery until they're filing out of the Freighter, and I see the Ordos Rocket Turret on my screen before blowing through the wall to get to the Wind Trap. And, I don't use the LRA platform glitch, although I do use the LRA platform. So... it should look more fair. I mean, I already give the player tons of reveal map events to show off the tileset, mostly, but still. One of the reveal map events shows the LRA platform after the Atreides Freighter is discovered, and the other reveal map at the Harkonnen ConYard is meant to hint at goodies in the rear of their base.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Fey said:

How about the Launch Pad? Still looks alright? My edits are a little rough around the edges, but hopefully it maintains its looks while being more functional.

Yes, I forgot to mention; looks fine too. At least with this one up to 4 vehicles, 8 infantry or something in between can be delivered.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Aye, I noticed that as I was mapping it. Unfortunately, it's a one-tile cliff wall; the 2x2 cliff works because there's still a tile preventing weird unit movement, but if I make that tile anything but impassable, units can go straight up the wall at the corner. Which is more than a minor error! It could inadvertently create extra paths for vehicles in arrangements where that corner is not at the very end of the elevated platform wall.

But here maybe you can do another type of workaround, like instead those spiky things (I don't ever know what those are, not even on the original game xD), like a trench or something like that or dunno.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Also, keeping the small corner tiles impassable preserves the illusion of height. Units need to funnel on to the terrain leading upwards or downwards. You know? If they cut the corner too sharp, it looks more flat as they move fluidly over the terrain. I mean, they need to path fluidly, so passable tiles need to be sufficient. It's just there needs to be that illusion of height for the map to look good in play.

Or, if those tiles are in a "high" area, but you still can make the thing a big bigger, like taking 2/3 of the tile more or less; at least that way would think "yeah, my units are too fat to go from that area" and could make believable that I cannot go that way.

https://prnt.sc/m3j2hz

I am talking about the infantry; because that tile it's not even walkable by the infantry. So having a infantry "climbing" that tile WITH SPIKES, but the same infantry cannot ever move into a tile that only have 1x4 pixels of wall; well, that's a bit unforgiving.

And since the tile next to it (to the right) it's also impassable, you can make both a bit more wider to look a bit more impasable. Maybe not the whole tile, only the thing about the wall; the green thing that it's a "leg", since that part it's on high you still can make it a bit more visible, even if it is only a little because the perspective, but something more than 4-5 tall pixel, I think, just like the top rifts on the original game, even with the perspective, you can see the rift forming a visible wall.

Same for those Blue tiles. you are using the "metal" counter part of these tiles.
https://prnt.sc/m49s3u
The rifts are at the top side but you still can see clearly how the those rock walls are much smaller than the ones pointing to the bottom, but even the ones to the top block more than 50% of the tile, so really looks impassable.

On your tileset, all the blue tiles around the harvesting area of the Harkonnen are impossible (because they are suppose to be higher), but on the top area don't look that way, so my suggestion it's to you to add the legs to those tiles as well (so the same will apply to the corner 1x4 pixel I talked about before).

To maintain the perspective you can pick up the size of the bottom legs and make it the same for the top side but 30-40% smaller, for example, but blocking enough to look that the tile indeed it's not passable just at first sight.

Because right now made me to wonder, looking at this image.
https://prnt.sc/m49toa

Why my units can go from that side but not for the other side? both looks exactly the same, visually, there is no indication that the two tiles of the right are a different highs, looks connected just as the ones to the left!

In fact, I only now realize that those blue tiles have something grey on it, making the "columns"; I didn't ever see them while playing; those colums need to be a better choice of color, in my opinion, or being brigher at least (and taller/fatter/bigger); also keep track how the ones pointing to the right are 4 in total per tile, but those on top there are only 2, a bit weird of that.

And, by the way, the grey columns looking to the right are dark, the ones to the left are more brigher, maybe you can try to do the same color for both. This it's is suppose to be a ship, so there is no "sun" that will give light from one side or another; the whole thing it's suppose to be good ilumanted, so you can make both sides more brighed and when you combine taller legs and britgher light-grey maybe the will become more visible.

Again, most of these are because don't look clearly enough; it's the only part I fell wrong: the tile to the bottom of the spikes (expanding the column/leg, not just taller but fatter to block a bit more of tile); and the blue tiles that have 2-3 grey pixels on it. add more/make them a bit fatter and, if possible, use a brigher grey that pop out a bit more to first sight.

Just remember, we both are using the vanilla resolution and only now saw that there are columns there; I cannot imaginate people using 1200xwhatever resolution.

Mini PD: I rewrite and edited so many times this post that I think half of it it's nosense xD.
I you didn't understand nothing of it I will do a draw/photo-stupid-montage just to showcase what exactly I mean. Plus the more rewriting and reditions my english got worse so.. I'll just stop for today.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Holy shit, a NEW error? Well, I guess with new tilesets come new errors...

I replayed the map just now and actually got that error. I dunno how I triggered it either. I wonder if it's related to the reinforcements on the Launch Pad at all... did you let them gather up?

Errors never been saw before, yay!

Not relate to the launch Pad; was one of the few things that I looked at when the "reinforcement" voice and move the units away when they come.

Also I remember on the Fremen warriors campaign that I deliveray made enemy reinforcements dropping into a only infantry area so the carryall only drop 2-3 units, take off, land, drop 3-4 more, take off, land, drop 2-3 more, until dropping 15 units or so, never got any error for that.

So, no idea, and the AI, at least on my run, had no too many units either, but who knows.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Oh, sorry about that. I wanted to showcase the potential of the AI when using Mass Deposits, so I optimized it but gave it a limited economy at two Harvesters. Or so I thought. :D Did you move your LRA to the platform covering the bridge? I used that to make defending easy, but in the process I found another funny glitch. Here's a screenshot of the formation that does the glitch: https://prnt.sc/m3n3r8

I move 1 missile tank there, the enemy shoot it, then I move it at the middle and a devastator destroye it xD. then the other missile tank and siege at the middle to the left; the sonic tanks were at the entrance killing infantry/troopers.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Oh, I'm glad you got to check out the crates harvesting anyway

I am glad that I am not the only one to attack with harvesters by accident xD.

You can do a try. place yourself 5x5 in units (vehicles or whatever) at you main base, select everyone and click to the other side of the bridge and look if the game broke or something.

Pd: Silos needed? bad player, baaad! xD.

Edited by Cm_blast

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On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Cm_blast said:

Yes, I forgot to mention; looks fine too. At least with this one up to 4 vehicles, 8 infantry or something in between can be delivered.

Excellent.

On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Cm_blast said:

But here maybe you can do another type of workaround, like instead those spiky things (I don't ever know what those are, not even on the original game xD), like a trench or something like that or dunno.

They are in the original game! They're in the BLOXBAT tileset. I took them out of the rock / sand tiles and put them in the platform. Most of the tiles were desaturated, but the ones in the Base Platform kept their coloration.

I think they're just bits of metal pushed into the ground meant to provide cover for infantry. You know, where infantry rock isn't present.

I really wanted to do some trench or something like E:BFD had, but... I don't know how to draw new stuff, I only know how to edit existing stuff. :D So I'm not confident doing trenches.

On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Cm_blast said:

Or, if those tiles are in a "high" area, but you still can make the thing a big bigger, like taking 2/3 of the tile more or less; at least that way would think "yeah, my units are too fat to go from that area" and could make believable that I cannot go that way.

https://prnt.sc/m3j2hz

I am talking about the infantry; because that tile it's not even walkable by the infantry. So having a infantry "climbing" that tile WITH SPIKES, but the same infantry cannot ever move into a tile that only have 1x4 pixels of wall; well, that's a bit unforgiving.

And since the tile next to it (to the right) it's also impassable, you can make both a bit more wider to look a bit more impasable. Maybe not the whole tile, only the thing about the wall; the green thing that it's a "leg", since that part it's on high you still can make it a bit more visible, even if it is only a little because the perspective, but something more than 4-5 tall pixel, I think, just like the top rifts on the original game, even with the perspective, you can see the rift forming a visible wall.

One of the big problems with doing a tileset is compatability. Like, for the cliff walls, Westwood had to line up the shadows for every tile because otherwise, certain combinations would have shadows jutting far out while others didn't go so far.

In this case, the standard walls have these pillars on the ends and so the corners have those pillars on the ends too. Perhaps I could try and work up a diagonal beam that would jut further into the tile... might look a little awkward, but would be a better indicator. For the record, there are sand tiles in the default tilesets that are impassable for no reason, so it's not just my mistake! :P I use one of those sand tiles in S15 to keep the player's units from wandering into specific tiles on the way to the enemy base that a Storm Lasher could fire upon. They're against the cliff edge near the enemy base, very subtle, but impactful.

Anyway, I'll see what I can work up, but for now the weird look can be rectified by slightly expanding the infantry-only passage, making the impassable "third" tile forgivable as there's plenty of space to navigate, or by using only up or down directions for infantry-only paths.

On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Cm_blast said:

Same for those Blue tiles. you are using the "metal" counter part of these tiles.
https://prnt.sc/m49s3u
The rifts are at the top side but you still can see clearly how the those rock walls are much smaller than the ones pointing to the bottom, but even the ones to the top block more than 50% of the tile, so really looks impassable.

On your tileset, all the blue tiles around the harvesting area of the Harkonnen are impossible (because they are suppose to be higher), but on the top area don't look that way, so my suggestion it's to you to add the legs to those tiles as well (so the same will apply to the corner 1x4 pixel I talked about before).

To maintain the perspective you can pick up the size of the bottom legs and make it the same for the top side but 30-40% smaller, for example, but blocking enough to look that the tile indeed it's not passable just at first sight.

Because right now made me to wonder, looking at this image.
https://prnt.sc/m49toa

Why my units can go from that side but not for the other side? both looks exactly the same, visually, there is no indication that the two tiles of the right are a different highs, looks connected just as the ones to the left!

In fact, I only now realize that those blue tiles have something grey on it, making the "columns"; I didn't ever see them while playing; those colums need to be a better choice of color, in my opinion, or being brigher at least (and taller/fatter/bigger); also keep track how the ones pointing to the right are 4 in total per tile, but those on top there are only 2, a bit weird of that.

Again, most of these are because don't look clearly enough; it's the only part I fell wrong: the tile to the bottom of the spikes (expanding the column/leg, not just taller but fatter to block a bit more of tile); and the blue tiles that have 2-3 grey pixels on it. add more/make them a bit fatter and, if possible, use a brigher grey that pop out a bit more to first sight.

Just remember, we both are using the vanilla resolution and only now saw that there are columns there; I cannot imaginate people using 1200xwhatever resolution.

Aye, this map used some experimental architecture. It's supposed to be heightened platform all the way around, but at points, the wall juts right into the platform edge, like this:
https://prnt.sc/m6ar92

Geometrically, that shouldn't make any sense, but it looked okay while I was mapping so I decided to see if anyone would pick up on it. Seems you did, as it makes the top edge of the platform look really weird. :P If the top edge curled around at some point, it would make its height more visible, or if only the bottom edge existed; the top edge doesn't need to be there. Do you think it works for the bottom edge, at least?

About the color, there are several different sorts of color combinations that could be used for that platform. I went with blue and white, but the top edge is kind of dark no matter what. Speaking of which...

On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Cm_blast said:

And, by the way, the grey columns looking to the right are dark, the ones to the left are more brigher, maybe you can try to do the same color for both. This it's is suppose to be a ship, so there is no "sun" that will give light from one side or another; the whole thing it's suppose to be good ilumanted, so you can make both sides more brighed and when you combine taller legs and britgher light-grey maybe the will become more visible.

Do you know if Heighliners have any... windows? Freighters are coming and going all the time, so they have to have doors and stuff. I imagine if any opening is there towards the sun of Dune, it'd come up with this kind of look. Plus, the light would reflect differently based on perspective, and the player is looking at the battlefield from a top-down perspective where certain things are angled differently, like the bottom walls versus the top walls.

Although the platform edges seem to have neutral lighting, the bronze platform borders are varied as well. Brightening everything might be a bit of work, but... I'll see what I can do, I suppose!

I know it sounds kinda silly coming from me, but I don't like the spritework. :D I'd rather be mapping, you know? But I want to have some good new tilesets to map with, for everyone to map with, so I'm doing this. Forgive me if I get a little demotivated to continue with the spritework here or there.

On the plus side, now that Mass Deposits and Supply Depots are done, the Base Platform system can be implemented in every new tileset while the terrain is being worked on. And who knows, maybe Geidi Prime will be simple to do if I just recolor the Caladan tileset to be all red and gray and stuff. And then there could be some more non-buildable platform where industrial buildings might be, like on the E:BFD tileset. Maybe there are points where the cliffs drop down into sunken terrain under where the platform should be, darkened dusty terrain... and I was considering doing a bright blue minerals system for Caladan, black oil for Giedi Prime... now that I have the directions the Spice is drawn in clearly outlined, I'll have an easier time doing new systems, if I do any. The crates work too, but, doesn't feel quite as good as new resources for new areas.

My excitement over being able to take the game to new areas outweighs my hatred of the tedium of drawing / editing sprites. :P

On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Cm_blast said:

Errors never been saw before, yay!

Not relate to the launch Pad; was one of the few things that I looked at when the "reinforcement" voice and move the units away when they come.

Also I remember on the Fremen warriors campaign that I deliveray made enemy reinforcements dropping into a only infantry area so the carryall only drop 2-3 units, take off, land, drop 3-4 more, take off, land, drop 2-3 more, until dropping 15 units or so, never got any error for that.

So, no idea, and the AI, at least on my run, had no too many units either, but who knows.

Ah, okay. Well, this map had a distinctive U shape, which I knew might cause the pathing error, but that's a new error and totally unexpected. I guess we'll find out more as we keep mapping with this thing.

Speaking of which, you come up with anything yet using this tileset? 😮 Seeing this work go to use will be more motivating, I'm sure. And maybe it'll help when I stop being so busy again...

On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Cm_blast said:

I move 1 missile tank there, the enemy shoot it, then I move it at the middle and a devastator destroye it xD. then the other missile tank and siege at the middle to the left; the sonic tanks were at the entrance killing infantry/troopers.

Ohh. Yeah, the best part about those platforms covering the bridge is it offers units with high range impunity to strike other units with poor range. If the enemy units are attacking yours on the LRA platform, you could move them back a little and they'll have the range to attack the enemy... but the enemy won't have the range to strike back without LRA of their own!

I like to put the LRA platform at a point where Missile Tanks or Siege Tanks can hit most or all of the tiles on the bridge, but are outside the range of short-range light tech units. That seems to be good structure.

On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Cm_blast said:

I am glad that I am not the only one to attack with harvesters by accident xD.

You can do a try. place yourself 5x5 in units (vehicles or whatever) at you main base, select everyone and click to the other side of the bridge and look if the game broke or something.

Pd: Silos needed? bad player, baaad! xD.

Aye, I put a Supply Depot up top there without any Mass Deposits around it just to show what happens - the Harvesters will go to enemy territory, so it's important that either you set it up so the next area is close, or there's a Mass Deposit within the Supply Depot (like in the Harkonnen base).

And hey, I think I managed my economy versus production really well in that run. :P That "Silos needed!" at the end doesn't count, I'd pretty much beaten the map. lol

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3 hours ago, Fey said:

They are in the original game! They're in the BLOXBAT tileset. I took them out of the rock / sand tiles and put them in the platform. Most of the tiles were desaturated, but the ones in the Base Platform kept their coloration.

What I mean it's "I saw those on the original game but never knew what they were".

3 hours ago, Fey said:

One of the big problems with doing a tileset is compatability. Like, for the cliff walls, Westwood had to line up the shadows for every tile because otherwise, certain combinations would have shadows jutting far out while others didn't go so far.

I think I said something in bewteen my thousands of reeditions; but since this tileset happen on the interior, you can have the shadown on your favor. Shadowns don't need to look bigger to down or up because here the ilumination could be elsewhere.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Geometrically, that shouldn't make any sense, but it looked okay while I was mapping so I decided to see if anyone would pick up on it. Seems you did, as it makes the top edge of the platform look really weird. :P If the top edge curled around at some point, it would make its height more visible, or if only the bottom edge existed; the top edge doesn't need to be there. Do you think it works for the bottom edge, at least?

Yes, bottom are fine; on those the tile looks clearly umpassable (it's a wall) but on the top doesn't look that way. 

Maybe you can do something like this:
Option 1: making the top-size of the tile (like rifting-top) be this way)
https://prnt.sc/m6cm48

You could argue to do it for every tile that the top will go into a unpassable terrain, this way totally looks like something will block your path from the blue area into the other blue area.

Or, option 2
https://prnt.sc/m6cm76

The legs being more numerous and more visible.

Of course, keep in mind that here I copy-paste during option 1 and used a box/random color to option 2; but you get the point, the legs on the option 2 need to be more numerous or more fat at least (but more clear overall); the color used on the legs looking to the left looks fine and very easy to see, try to use the same/similar color instead that darked grey; they could paint the legs all in a similar manner and here there is no sun or sand or anything, so they don't get dirty or anything like that.

Something similar with the green leg on the other area.
https://prnt.sc/m6d7uh
Besides the leg being more brighter, maybe adding a corner collum/leg?

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Do you know if Heighliners have any... windows? Freighters are coming and going all the time, so they have to have doors and stuff. I imagine if any opening is there towards the sun of Dune, it'd come up with this kind of look. Plus, the light would reflect differently based on perspective, and the player is looking at the battlefield from a top-down perspective where certain things are angled differently, like the bottom walls versus the top walls.

Nobody said that those ships are in Dune at that moment :P, they could be on draconis, or in Giedi Prime, or on the galaxy; maybe they are just orbiting dune but not close enough to their sun to reach them or whatever :P.

But anyway; if you really want to the top legs being darker than the bottom ones, then the top ones should have the color of the bottom and then the bottom being even more brigther; or something in bewteen; it's just that the dark grey it's hard too see in contrast with the blue.

Just play a game with the original color.bin and make a Atreides Vs Fremen sides; Blue vs Gray; you will see that it's a bit hard to know which quads and Atreides Tanks were yours and which ones were Fremen.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Although the platform edges seem to have neutral lighting, the bronze platform borders are varied as well. Brightening everything might be a bit of work, but... I'll see what I can do, I suppose!

Everything looks fine; the only problem are the top area, the rest looks suprising good. I was not expecting a tileset that good that made thing "I will use that in the future".

Once the top part becomes more clearly then it's done. Bigger, fatter, taller, brighther... whatever makes the thing more clear. 

3 hours ago, Fey said:

On the plus side, now that Mass Deposits and Supply Depots are done, the Base Platform system can be implemented in every new tileset while the terrain is being worked on. And who knows, maybe Geidi Prime will be simple to do if I just recolor the Caladan tileset to be all red and gray and stuff. And then there could be some more non-buildable platform where industrial buildings might be, like on the E:BFD tileset. Maybe there are points where the cliffs drop down into sunken terrain under where the platform should be, darkened dusty terrain... and I was considering doing a bright blue minerals system for Caladan, black oil for Giedi Prime... now that I have the directions the Spice is drawn in clearly outlined, I'll have an easier time doing new systems, if I do any. The crates work too, but, doesn't feel quite as good as new resources for new areas.

I know; you just need to do something easy from these options; I think that would be enough and don't require too much drawing
a) Duplicate the number of legs <-- copy paste at it finest.
b) Make the legs wider/taller (1-2 pixels to the right-top-something) <-- another copy-paste, but not the full leg just only 1 vertical/horizontal line to make the leg wider/taller.
c) Brigther: I know in photoshop there is 1 option over there that will add bright to all 1 picture; I guess gimp has something similar. apply a bright to all the pixels or to the ones that are more grey so they pop-up more and that's it.

I am more about copy-imitating or whatever that drawning new concepts; my Sor mods are most the time tributes ripping preexisting graphics; I only made "boxes" for one of them to contain the briefing of the level, but those are basic and I think I used one of the patterns that photoshop have "had like 2-3 and I used 1 and that's it, I don't ever remember how to create a new one". So I really understand you.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Speaking of which, you come up with anything yet using this tileset? 😮 Seeing this work go to use will be more motivating, I'm sure. And maybe it'll help when I stop being so busy again...

Indeed; I have in mind a concept to do a "space travel" mixing this tileset with the C&C tilesets that there are over there, but first I am going to do something else;

Also I am tempted to take out the wasteland tileset for the warcraft 2 game and try to use it here, but at this moment and I still in "tempted"; just don't rush anything and do at your pace; I know I will use this tileset on the future, sooner or later.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Aye, I put a Supply Depot up top there without any Mass Deposits around it just to show what happens - the Harvesters will go to enemy territory, so it's important that either you set it up so the next area is close, or there's a Mass Deposit within the Supply Depot (like in the Harkonnen base).

By the way; At this point I am thinking on something more, a second tileset for you to release; don't need to have any tiles new or anything, just a small edition: crates for thick spice.

You can have a bigger group of crates together to work as thick spice; the thick should be surrounded by 8 tiles of thin spice (or another thick tile) in every situation (I think every single westwood map are that way), so you don't need the yellow-black line around the crates or anything.

Harvester can't take the thin spice it there is a thich one next to them so maybe they still could fit together.

So these will be the combinations of both spices and compact the area needed
https://prnt.sc/m6czxx
Those are right, thin spice in every tile around thick, with no exception.

If someone do it this way

My point it's, I could create a box of 7x7 full of spice, being 5x5 of thich spice; this won't take too much room on my map but I compacted 75 tiles of spice in only in a 7x7 area. All that worth over 100.000 credits which it's not bad.

Of course, if somebody do this
https://prnt.sc/m6d00h
your tiles will look bad, but that happens on the original game so you shouldn't care too much how it looks on these situations.

This is just an idea; but if am not mistaken you only need 4 new tiles (which will be the crates tiles but more numerous).

For example, if all your thin spice tiles have bewteen 5-15 boxes, the thick showing 20-25 or something like that.

I don't know if you really can (or want) to do that, just a concept to add a map with limited resources but not requiring big amount of room to place plenty of thing tiles of spice.

Edited by Cm_blast

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2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

What I mean it's "I saw those on the original game but never knew what they were".

Oh, okay. Yeah, I think they're artificial fortifications, so I figured I'd re-use them for this tileset as the infantry-only terrain.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I think I said something in bewteen my thousands of reeditions; but since this tileset happen on the interior, you can have the shadown on your favor. Shadowns don't need to look bigger to down or up because here the ilumination could be elsewhere.

Yeah, you're right. But, there's also the issue of all the buildings having shadows... and units... so... shit, maybe I need to keep the lighting the same anyway. XD

Like I said, I'll do what I can to make the top border more visible.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

What I mean it's "I saw those on the original game but never knew what they were".

I think I said something in bewteen my thousands of reeditions; but since this tileset happen on the interior, you can have the shadown on your favor. Shadowns don't need to look bigger to down or up because here the ilumination could be elsewhere.

Yes, bottom are fine; on those the tile looks clearly umpassable (it's a wall) but on the top doesn't look that way. 

Maybe you can do something like this:
Option 1: making the top-size of the tile (like rifting-top) be this way)
https://prnt.sc/m6cm48

You could argue to do it for every tile that the top will go into a unpassable terrain, this way totally looks like something will block your path from the blue area into the other blue area.

Or, option 2
https://prnt.sc/m6cm76

The legs being more numerous and more visible.

Of course, keep in mind that here I copy-paste during option 1 and used a box/random color to option 2; but you get the point, the legs on the option 2 need to be more numerous or more fat at least (but more clear overall); the color used on the legs looking to the left looks fine and very easy to see, try to use the same/similar color instead that darked grey; they could paint the legs all in a similar manner and here there is no sun or sand or anything, so they don't get dirty or anything like that.

Something similar with the green leg on the other area.
https://prnt.sc/m6d7uh
Besides the leg being more brighter, maybe adding a corner collum/leg?

Oh, I like how that looks. I can see something like that happening. Or, at least, the second option. I dunno about making them more numerous, but those are thicker and don't look out of place.

The corner column, I mentioned in my last post. I don't think I could make that look good, but if I boost the thickness of the columns in general, that should do... something. Maybe after that I can nix the corner column idea and keep it just thicker columns in general.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Nobody said that those ships are in Dune at that moment :P, they could be on draconis, or in Giedi Prime, or on the galaxy; maybe they are just orbiting dune but not close enough to their sun to reach them or whatever :P.

But anyway; if you really want to the top legs being darker than the bottom ones, then the top ones should have the color of the bottom and then the bottom being even more brigther; or something in bewteen; it's just that the dark grey it's hard too see in contrast with the blue.

Just play a game with the original color.bin and make a Atreides Vs Fremen sides; Blue vs Gray; you will see that it's a bit hard to know which quads and Atreides Tanks were yours and which ones were Fremen.

Good point, but again, the buildings' and units' shadows. Maybe there's a big internal light or something aside from the spotlights on the ground, I dunno. God damn sun giving me all sorts of problems. lol

And, again, the top border might be more visible if there were also the side borders. This map used experimental architecture, so if you believe a platform where the border goes all the way around is more visible, maybe we don't gotta change anything after all.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Everything looks fine; the only problem are the top area, the rest looks suprising good. I was not expecting a tileset that good that made thing "I will use that in the future".

Once the top part becomes more clearly then it's done. Bigger, fatter, taller, brighther... whatever makes the thing more clear.

Well, that's good, that's certainly motivating. I've worked on a lot of projects where "done" constantly moves further and further back, is never quite reached... but if you believe that's all that's needed, aside from the corner columns, I'm game to go back to GIMP 2 and wrap it up. I keep the raw file with all the layers and stuff so I can make adjustments to individual parts as needed, at least until this thing is 100% done.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I know; you just need to do something easy from these options; I think that would be enough and don't require too much drawing

a) Duplicate the number of legs <-- copy paste at it finest.
b) Make the legs wider/taller (1-2 pixels to the right-top-something) <-- another copy-paste, but not the full leg just only 1 vertical/horizontal line to make the leg wider/taller.
c) Brigther: I know in photoshop there is 1 option over there that will add bright to all 1 picture; I guess gimp has something similar. apply a bright to all the pixels or to the ones that are more grey so they pop-up more and that's it.

I am more about copy-imitating or whatever that drawning new concepts; my Sor mods are most the time tributes ripping preexisting graphics; I only made "boxes" for one of them to contain the briefing of the level, but those are basic and I think I used one of the patterns that photoshop have "had like 2-3 and I used 1 and that's it, I don't ever remember how to create a new one". So I really understand you.

Yeah. :D It's nice someone does. lol

The copy + paste thing, I love it, it doesn't QUITE do the job because then you have thick clumps of pixels, but a little color correction on the copy can fix that up. Which GIMP 2 can do. I mean, that's how I got the infantry spikes sorted, carefully dissecting it from the rock / sand tiles in BLOXBAT... and the platform edge, if you look closely you can see the columns pulled up into the platforms themselves. I thought that would be a neat aesthetic like the same sort of platform edge is used, but there's no need for the retractable columns to be extended. Here's a close-up:

https://prnt.sc/m6fa7c

That's also how I did the platform border sprites, like these:
https://prnt.sc/m6fb26

Are just the borders of the bridge tiles arranged in that way. And the platform light doodads:
https://prnt.sc/m6fbdb

Are just column parts that were arranged into a tower with the little bulbs at the bottom of each column. And I believe the bulbs were... part of the Atreides Wind Trap sprite, at one point. It's all re-use. :P

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Indeed; I have in mind a concept to do a "space travel" mixing this tileset with the C&C tilesets that there are over there, but first I am going to do something else;

Also I am tempted to take out the wasteland tileset for the warcraft 2 game and try to use it here, but at this moment and I still in "tempted"; just don't rush anything and do at your pace; I know I will use this tileset on the future, sooner or later.

Ah, that'll be interesting. What other C&C tilesets do they have? I'd love to see if there's anything else I could work with. And, how about the Warcraft II tilesets? Anything really good and suitable we could work with there?

Maybe with enough tilesets we could re-create the Emperor: Battle for Dune campaign. The entire thing. Heighliner maps, House homeworld maps. The special event maps will be weird to work with, but hey, we'll have all the locations we'd need to take the game to available.

The only shitty part is that we need some sort of orange terrain and some sort of other terrain suitable for sand craters for resource gathering on every tileset if Mass Deposits aren't going to be the only resource gathering node, but on the plus side... we have crates for temporary gathering and infinite nodes for infinite gathering already available, and those could work anywhere. Maybe a minerals or oil thing for Caladan or Giedi Prime respectively could be done, but we have a working system in the meantime... and correcting any maps already built with the current tileset is as easy as swapping the image files. Maximum versatility! Maximum compatability!

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way; At this point I am thinking on something more, a second tileset for you to release; don't need to have any tiles new or anything, just a small edition: crates for thick spice.

You can have a bigger group of crates together to work as thick spice; the thick should be surrounded by 8 tiles of thin spice (or another thick tile) in every situation (I think every single westwood map are that way), so you don't need the yellow-black line around the crates or anything.

Harvester can't take the thin spice it there is a thich one next to them so maybe they still could fit together.

So these will be the combinations of both spices and compact the area needed
https://prnt.sc/m6czxx
Those are right, thin spice in every tile around thick, with no exception.

If someone do it this way

My point it's, I could create a box of 7x7 full of spice, being 5x5 of thich spice; this won't take too much room on my map but I compacted 75 tiles of spice in only in a 7x7 area. All that worth over 100.000 credits which it's not bad.

Of course, if somebody do this
https://prnt.sc/m6d00h
your tiles will look bad, but that happens on the original game so you shouldn't care too much how it looks on these situations.

This is just an idea; but if am not mistaken you only need 4 new tiles (which will be the crates tiles but more numerous).

For example, if all your thin spice tiles have bewteen 5-15 boxes, the thick showing 20-25 or something like that.

I don't know if you really can (or want) to do that, just a concept to add a map with limited resources but not requiring big amount of room to place plenty of thing tiles of spice.

I usually put thick Spice up to the corners - only up, down, left, and right need to have thin Spice and it looks alright. Doing this new resources system for the Heighliner tileset however, I see that it does make some difference.

I could do that if y'all want a map with temporary resources. What do I replace the Mass Deposit tiles with though? Do I leave them as like doodads for the middle of Supply Depots? More map decor, always nice. And with the option to use thick Spice, Supply Depots will last longer.

So, here's my short-term to-do list, I suppose...
 - Top-left / top-right heightened platform corners need to be more visible and appear impassable.
 - Top border for all colors of heightened platform edge needs to be thicker, more visible, and appear impassable.
 - Make some EXTRA T H I C C crates tiles for temporary resources maps, release a separate tileset with that...

And I've also gotta finish the maps leading up to S18. The reason I haven't continued to this point, aside from being busy with a bunch of other stuff, is because I wanted S16V2 to be a Heighliner map, and now maybe SBON3 can be a Heighliner map too. I originally wanted to re-use S07V1 for SBON3, where this time you're the one defending the summit, but the idea can work in the Heighliner tileset too. The Spacing Guild has re-located a bunch of Combat Tank production centers to a Heighliner to keep them safe from the battle on Dune, so you go up there and capture them. It's like S13V2, except instead of airstrikes, you're capturing Heavy Factories that automatically pump out Combat Tank after Combat Tank and send them at the enemy. Maybe you start with one in your starting area, but you gotta capture the other two or three. That'll be fun...

XD I booted up S18 again and, yeah, I wasn't playing at peak at all, but this happened not too far in. :P
https://prnt.sc/m6eyql

Tfw. I'm confident it's a complete map, not overtuned, I did PLENTY of testing when I was actually trying, but it's nice to see the AI will give me a hard time if I play around too much. lol. And speaking of lots of Combat Tanks, you ever give S14V1 / V2 a try, Cm? I know you did S15. S14V1 turned out really nicely, I'm happy with it, but it is a legit 3v3. The AI uses looots of tanks. Like this:
https://prnt.sc/ladjyy

Don't you just love buffing the shit out of the AI? Now it's actually imposing, maybe even intimidating. :D The more human it is, the better, I think. And the S18 AI proved no less stupid than when I first tested the map - they still redirect their Missile Tanks at the target with low-health to one-shot it before they go down, they still fly units out for repairs in the middle of attacking my base, they still throw more special tanks at you the closer you get to the end, they still eat tanks at the first choke point very effectively...

Anyway, uhh, Imma get to work on the top border thickness and stuff. If colors are a problem, maybe I should also consider removing the same-color elevated platform on same-color low platform, stuff like this:
https://prnt.sc/m6fmfh

What do you think? Maybe we can get some use out of this sort of format or better open it up for other things? If other things, then what? Just some random indestructible Heighliner doodads like Mass Deposits based on existing House buildings?

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33 minutes ago, Fey said:

Oh, I like how that looks. I can see something like that happening. Or, at least, the second option. I dunno about making them more numerous, but those are thicker and don't look out of place.

The corner column, I mentioned in my last post. I don't think I could make that look good, but if I boost the thickness of the columns in general, that should do... something. Maybe after that I can nix the corner column idea and keep it just thicker columns in general.

Alright, you know better than me.

It's just that the corner green one, the way you did it look like "I can step on tile A; I can step on tile B, but I cannot move from A to B", but dune 2000 don't work that way, so you need to make like "I cannot step on tile A; I cannot step on tile B" just by the visual.

 

33 minutes ago, Fey said:

Well, that's good, that's certainly motivating. I've worked on a lot of projects where "done" constantly moves further and further back, is never quite reached... but if you believe that's all that's needed, aside from the corner columns, I'm game to go back to GIMP 2 and wrap it up. I keep the raw file with all the layers and stuff so I can make adjustments to individual parts as needed, at least until this thing is 100% done.

Indeed, I also like how you made it to not needed to mod the game at all, you take advantage of the curren situation (crates on shoots and all) to create a buildable area.

I guess there isn't any traditional sand, right? I don't remember seeing sand crates, I guess you give to them atributes like half-rock/sand, dunes and that kind of stuff.

33 minutes ago, Fey said:

Ah, that'll be interesting. What other C&C tilesets do they have? I'd love to see if there's anything else I could work with. And, how about the Warcraft II tilesets? Anything really good and suitable we could work with there?

There are three C&C tilesets done. 2 "green grass" and one snowdy. One of the green use the first C&C tiberiun as spice included, the other gold and the snow have gems.

Warcraft 2 (at least this one) has also grass and snow, here:
Grass: https://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/warcraft2/sheet/29501/
Snowhttps://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/warcraft2/sheet/29503/
Wasteland: https://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/warcraft2/sheet/29502/

Maybe from the snow one you can pick up the ice that form on top of the water, thus having "normal snow" (buildable and all) and "thin ice), enough to walk by, but not to build anything on it.

But I didn't ever opened anything or compare with dune 2000 grahics/size or whatever; Maybe they don't ever fit. Also maybe the wasteland looks too much alike to the already dune 2000 one.

Oh; I realize that warcraft 2 has a editor, nothing better to get any sprite needed xD.

33 minutes ago, Fey said:

So, here's my short-term to-do list, I suppose...
 - Top-left / top-right heightened platform corners need to be more visible and appear impassable.
 - Top border for all colors of heightened platform edge needs to be thicker, more visible, and appear impassable.
 - Make some EXTRA T H I C C crates tiles for temporary resources maps, release a separate tileset with that...

I like that planning xD. I only wish more people were aware of this to have some ideas. And if you need help there is people around here that seems to know better about drawning and things like that.

Also not only me, I guess more people may will use your tileset as well. The C&C ones are used for multiplayer skirmish games back in time and I didn't ever know they existed.

35 minutes ago, Fey said:

Tfw. I'm confident it's a complete map, not overtuned, I did PLENTY of testing when I was actually trying, but it's nice to see the AI will give me a hard time if I play around too much. lol. And speaking of lots of Combat Tanks, you ever give S14V1 / V2 a try, Cm? I know you did S15. S14V1 turned out really nicely, I'm happy with it, but it is a legit 3v3. The AI uses looots of tanks. Like this:
https://prnt.sc/ladjyy

That already gave me a headache. I think I didn't play anything more than I said; I prefer to wait until a full complete campaign it's done to not loose the style. Your maps, Feda maps and my own maps are played different. (different pace, different spice available, etc...). Also I don't want to go to deep in this post about a campaign because this post it's about the tileset.

By the way; I suggest to you to upload on the forum directly a image of your current tileset graphic and a screen shot from mid game using your tileset; maybe one of those links contain what I am saying, but for people that are passing by or anybody anonimous that will end on this post for 1 minute, a quick vission of your tileset would be more appealing than a post with 7 links (even if those links are images).

You know, "show, don't tell". With a bit of luck you can hook someone!

44 minutes ago, Fey said:

Anyway, uhh, Imma get to work on the top border thickness and stuff. If colors are a problem, maybe I should also consider removing the same-color elevated platform on same-color low platform, stuff like this:
https://prnt.sc/m6fmfh

I am pretty bad at looking at your tileset not deployed; I know the day I need to try to use your tileset I'll be a nightmare to me to understand what tile should join with with other tile. Nothing you can really do, the originals tileset took me a while to find anything of them.

I hope by that time you figure how to preset keys on specific tiles :P.

51 minutes ago, Fey said:

What do you think? Maybe we can get some use out of this sort of format or better open it up for other things? If other things, then what? Just some random indestructible Heighliner doodads like Mass Deposits based on existing House buildings?

Yes, maybe you can use the frigate crashed on the sand to reuse the graphic.

Edited by Cm_blast

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2 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Alright, you know better than me.

It's just that the corner green one, the way you did it look like "I can step on tile A; I can step on tile B, but I cannot move from A to B", but dune 2000 don't work that way, so you need to make like "I cannot step on tile A; I cannot step on tile B" just by the visual.

At the wors scenario you can add another type of thing, like the bigger spiky version so big that not even the infantry can move or... well, I let you think about that, as long as the tile looks non-transitable that's fine to me.

Yeah, it's gotta be more visible, that's the bottom line.

3 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Indeed, I also like how you made it to not needed to mod the game at all, you take advantage of the curren situation (crates on shoots and all) to create a buildable area.

I guess there isn't any traditional sand, right? I don't remember seeing sand crates, I guess you give to them atributes like half-rock/sand, dunes and that kind of stuff.

Yes, the attributes are what cause the craters. If you can build structures on top of a tile, that means the tile will suffer rock craters when damaged. If the Spice can be placed on and harvested from another sort of tile, sand craters will appear. Thus, if you want base-building and harvestable resources without editing graphics files, the base foundation tiles NEED to be orange and the resource gathering tiles NEED to be gold, or the craters won't look right.

The craters CAN be edited via the .r16 file, but that would change the whole game. Every map. Green craters on Caladan maps means green craters on Arrakis maps. By doing this sort of thing with Base Platform and Supply Depots, it's my way of adapting to the default in the game so the craters can appear without requiring any game editing overall. This way, you can have a campaign with maps on Arrakis... AND on a Heighliner. The craters can still appear on the Heighliner just like they do on Arrakis, but despite the terrain differences, they should look okay either way. And that's where the importance of the compatability comes in.

The only "dunes" tiles are the edges of Base Platform, where the unique properties of Base Platform fade to normal platform and result in weird terrain to drive or walk on. And, on the edges of Launch Pads, slowing units that get off the Carryall.

Do you have a tile attributes editor? I could pass you mine if it'll help you get a closer look at the tileset, or any tileset really.

8 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

There are three C&C tilesets done. 2 "green grass" and one snowdy. One of the green use the first C&C tiberiun as spice included, the other gold and the snow have gems.

Warcraft 2 (at least this one) has also grass and snow, here:
Grass: https://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/warcraft2/sheet/29501/
Snowhttps://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/warcraft2/sheet/29503/
Wasteland: https://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/warcraft2/sheet/29502/

Maybe from the snow one you can pick up the ice that form on top of the water, thus having "normal snow" (buildable and all) and "thin ice), enough to walk by, but not to build anything on it.

But I didn't ever opened anything or compare with dune 2000 grahics/size or whatever; Maybe they don't ever fit. Also maybe the wasteland looks too much alike to the already dune 2000 one.

Oh; I realize that warcraft 2 has a editor, nothing better to get any sprite needed xD.

Those look good, but I'm not sure how they'd look with D2k unit perspectives. The C&C tileset Klofkac converted for D2k and I re-used for the first prototypes of Base Platform works, so maybe we should keep re-using C&C tilesets. That'll at least keep things thematic, and then I can just throw in Base Platform, Supply Depots, and Mass Deposits for each tileset. Whoopee!

I think the beaches on the Caladan tileset might be a decent color for sand craters, maybe if brightened a little, so that could be expanded upon a tad if we want to use blue minerals and stuff. Maybe. That tileset is packed to fuck already with rivers, cliffs, trees, etc. so we'd need to nix some shit to get enough tiles for mineral bank terrain.

15 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I like that planning xD. I only wish more people were aware of this to have some ideas. And if you need help there is people around here that seems to know better about drawning and things like that.

Yeah, there's never enough feedback, right? But hey, maybe we can bug D2k Sardaukar about doing some special sprites. He did the original sprite for the Repair Pad I turned into the Launch Pad for this tileset. And when this thing's done, maybe we can bug Klofkac about configuring it for the editor. And I'm glad you're here! At least you're around to give good feedback right away.

Did you see the tank count on that S14 screenshot? lol I wanna do more maps like that.

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1 minute ago, Fey said:

Yeah, it's gotta be more visible, that's the bottom line.

Because Stone Cold said so!

2 minutes ago, Fey said:

Yes, the attributes are what cause the craters. If you can build structures on top of a tile, that means the tile will suffer rock craters when damaged. If the Spice can be placed on and harvested from another sort of tile, sand craters will appear. Thus, if you want base-building and harvestable resources without editing graphics files, the base foundation tiles NEED to be orange and the resource gathering tiles NEED to be gold, or the craters won't look right.

The craters CAN be edited via the .r16 file, but that would change the whole game. Every map. Green craters on Caladan maps means green craters on Arrakis maps. By doing this sort of thing with Base Platform and Supply Depots, it's my way of adapting to the default in the game so the craters can appear without requiring any game editing overall. This way, you can have a campaign with maps on Arrakis... AND on a Heighliner. The craters can still appear on the Heighliner just like they do on Arrakis, but despite the terrain differences, they should look okay either way. And that's where the importance of the compatability comes in.

Yes, I know this info. But I was wondering if you ever used the "default" sand to do that.

The crates (boxes) on your custom tileset would create sand crates, right? that was yellow? damn, I played your map not that time ago and I forgot already!

Also; I removed once the crates completely from the r.16 file xD; I know that mod the game, but if necessary can be done just for the "no crates whatsoever", at least was interesting looking at the result.

4 minutes ago, Fey said:

Do you have a tile attributes editor? I could pass you mine if it'll help you get a closer look at the tileset, or any tileset really.

Yes, I have; I ask you because for the most part I am only using the map editor and that's it. I don't know all the details about the atributes that the tiles have; I remember doing a research back in time looking for behaviour (which tile slow which unit, etc); the early versions of that tile attribute tool has several "unknown" that time I saw it.

6 minutes ago, Fey said:

Yeah, there's never enough feedback, right? But hey, maybe we can bug D2k Sardaukar about doing some special sprites. He did the original sprite for the Repair Pad I turned into the Launch Pad for this tileset. And when this thing's done, maybe we can bug Klofkac about configuring it for the editor. And I'm glad you're here! At least you're around to give good feedback right away.

I'll let that stuff for you guys. I will focus on doing campaigns and, if you both create something cool I will use it one way or another.

8 minutes ago, Fey said:

Did you see the tank count on that S14 screenshot? lol I wanna do more maps like that.

Check the last post; I was editing something in it; for some reason I couldn't use the arrows, the enter (keyboard still working fine).

By the way, something you should give a look, the Luminar's Fremen campaign. His night mission has a reconversion of the rock terrain to blue. Maybe you cannot get anything from it but inspire you or something.

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3 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, I know this info. But I was wondering if you ever used the "default" sand to do that.

The crates (boxes) on your custom tileset would create sand crates, right? that was yellow? damn, I played your map not that time ago and I forgot already!

Also; I removed once the crates completely from the r.16 file xD; I know that mod the game, but if necessary can be done just for the "no crates whatsoever", at least was interesting looking at the result.

Ah, okay.

And, yep, they make sand craters. They don't appear perfectly on the gold platform, but much better than nothing for sure.

4 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, I have; I ask you because for the most part I am only using the map editor and that's it. I don't know all the details about the atributes that the tiles have; I remember doing a research back in time looking for behaviour (which tile slow which unit, etc); the early versions of that tile attribute tool has several "unknown" that time I saw it.

Oh, okay.

5 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I'll let that stuff for you guys. I will focus on doing campaigns and, if you both create something cool I will use it one way or another.

Cool. :P

5 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Check the last post; I was editing something in it; for some reason I couldn't use the arrows, the enter (keyboard still working fine).

By the way, something you should give a look, the Luminar's Fremen campaign. His night mission has a reconversion of the rock terrain to blue. Maybe you cannot get anything from it but inspire you or something.

Oh. :D That happens to me sometimes, I just refresh the page if I run into that bug. This forum is great at saving unfinished posts, but I'm not sure it works for edits.

Aye, I heard about the night mission. Maybe that could be put to use somehow... if we have Base Platform, the spotlights could be used to illuminate the platform itself and the rock beyond, but Spice harvesting... damn, that won't work. Not unless the Spice is made unharvestable and we only get to harvest from the crates on the well-lit platform.


I'm reminded always of Under Cover of Night whenever there's a night mission in things. You ever play Halo CE? That theme's fuckin' iconic, dude. Maybe there's a way to mod music themes into the game and force them to play with Play Sound events without, you know, adding them to the main soundtrack that's put on shuffle. I have a sound files editor, too. I was thinking of doing mentat voice lines and stuff since the Ordos' lines are used for everything past index 4... that might be nice to have something different for the other factions, but wouldn't that mean screwing up the Ordos' mentat voices? Ugh. So much shit messes with other shit. I dunno, maybe we'll come up with something...

43 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Also not only me, I guess more people may will use your tileset as well. The C&C ones are used for multiplayer skirmish games back in time and I didn't ever know they existed.

I actually hoped to make a multiplayer map with the tileset. The rules will be a little weird, Mass Deposits and Supply Depots will lead to more fights over resources, but I'm sure that only adds to the action and carnage of a multiplayer map. It would need to be well-designed though - too many Mass Deposits in safe territory means turtles galore, and no one likes turtles in multiplayer. So, one Mass Deposit in the base along with a Supply Depot or two will be enough to get a player started, and then the player needs to expand and stuff. It would definitely change the meta of the game since you can't just mindlessly place Refinery after Refinery and let Harvesters do their thing; the nodes need to be harvested first, then the Supply Depots need to be used to buff your income.

Shaokhan told me some folks use C&C maps, which sounds weird, but hey, maybe they'd appreciate something a little different.

46 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

That already gave me a headache. I think I didn't play anything more than I said; I prefer to wait until a full complete campaign it's done to not loose the style. Your maps, Feda maps and my own maps are played different. (different pace, different spice available, etc...). Also I don't want to go to deep in this post about a campaign because this post it's about the tileset.

Yeah, I feel ya. I looked over the ol' screenshot since it's been a while and I may finally have opportunities to get back into mapping, so I'm, you know, reminiscing about the stuff I'll get to see in-game again. Soon. :P

48 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way; I suggest to you to upload on the forum directly a image of your current tileset graphic and a screen shot from mid game using your tileset; maybe one of those links contain what I am saying, but for people that are passing by or anybody anonimous that will end on this post for 1 minute, a quick vission of your tileset would be more appealing than a post with 7 links (even if those links are images).

You know, "show, don't tell". With a bit of luck you can hook someone!

Ah, you're right. I'll do that in the OP.

Maybe I can do the same wherever the multiplayer peeps hang out. Maybe on C&Cnet forums?

49 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I am pretty bad at looking at your tileset not deployed; I know the day I need to try to use your tileset I'll be a nightmare to me to understand what tile should join with with other tile. Nothing you can really do, the originals tileset took me a while to find anything of them.

I hope by that time you figure how to preset keys on specific tiles :P.

I pointed a few important tiles out in another post in this thread. Here's a link:
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27842-wip-heighliner-tileset/?do=findComment&amp;comment=396120

I point out some hard to see, but important tiles. This should help ya get started. I've got the corners, walls, resource gathering, etc. pointed out:
https://prnt.sc/m1k6u4
https://prnt.sc/m1kaa1
https://prnt.sc/m1k8bc
https://prnt.sc/m1kdwc

50 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, maybe you can use the frigate crashed on the sand to reuse the graphic.

Oh, that's a good idea. And the Carryall, there have gotta be a lot of those flying around Heighliners. With Supply Depots and Mass Deposits, I was thinking they'd need a lot of fuel, repair materials, etc. to get vehicles in top shape before flying them down to Dune. So, if you're on the Heighliner, you could use those supplies to get your own vehicles in combat-ready condition.

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15 hours ago, Fey said:

Oh. :D That happens to me sometimes, I just refresh the page if I run into that bug. This forum is great at saving unfinished posts, but I'm not sure it works for edits.

Sometimes doesn't happen, so I didn't want to risk loosing everything written. sometimes appears something I wrote 1 month ago (a private message, although I already sended that one). 

15 hours ago, Fey said:

Ah, you're right. I'll do that in the OP.

Maybe I can do the same wherever the multiplayer peeps hang out. Maybe on C&Cnet forums?

Once the tileset it's 100% done you can open a new threat or edit this one but with the first being concise; just showing the tileset, mid game and maybe a multiplayer 1 vs 1 map; at least an specific 1 vs 1 map to play in multiplayer could do it.

15 hours ago, Fey said:

I pointed a few important tiles out in another post in this thread. Here's a link:
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27842-wip-heighliner-tileset/?do=findComment&amp;comment=396120

I point out some hard to see, but important tiles. This should help ya get started. I've got the corners, walls, resource gathering, etc. pointed out:
https://prnt.sc/m1k6u4
https://prnt.sc/m1kaa1
https://prnt.sc/m1k8bc
https://prnt.sc/m1kdwc

Alright, once I start working with those I will learn the pattern better.

15 hours ago, Fey said:

Oh, that's a good idea. And the Carryall, there have gotta be a lot of those flying around Heighliners. With Supply Depots and Mass Deposits, I was thinking they'd need a lot of fuel, repair materials, etc. to get vehicles in top shape before flying them down to Dune. So, if you're on the Heighliner, you could use those supplies to get your own vehicles in combat-ready condition.

Oh, yes, frigates or carryalls crashed. The harvester crashed on the rift maybe you can get a use for that too, or the guy dead onthe sand... things like that, all those details can be used one way or another, I guess.

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2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Sometimes doesn't happen, so I didn't want to risk loosing everything written. sometimes appears something I wrote 1 month ago (a private message, although I already sended that one).

Oh, I just copy everything to Notepad or something if I'm worried about it.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Once the tileset it's 100% done you can open a new threat or edit this one but with the first being concise; just showing the tileset, mid game and maybe a multiplayer 1 vs 1 map; at least an specific 1 vs 1 map to play in multiplayer could do it.

Aye, like an official release thread. I'd need someone to play multiplayer with if I was gonna include an example like that, but theoretically it should work. I could make a 1v1 map really quickly and easily. Like, a small, low-tech, fast paced 1v1 map...

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Alright, once I start working with those I will learn the pattern better.

Yee. I'm actually working up another map with the tileset at the moment, but it's for the campaign this time, and more maps is always good for more examples. It's that bonus mission with the Heavy Factories I was talking about earlier.

New tileset, old concept. Fairly safe ground to test the map on, I guess. :P

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Oh, yes, frigates or carryalls crashed. The harvester crashed on the rift maybe you can get a use for that too, or the guy dead onthe sand... things like that, all those details can be used one way or another, I guess.

Yeah, there's a random skeleton and other debris that could be used. I'll see what I can overwrite, thus how much room I have. I'm going to assume the platform base / walls with identical colors will not be used, so I'll overwrite those...

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On 1/13/2019 at 11:33 AM, Cm_blast said:

Oh, yes, frigates or carryalls crashed. The harvester crashed on the rift maybe you can get a use for that too, or the guy dead onthe sand... things like that, all those details can be used one way or another, I guess.

I worked up another map, this time 128x128 using my mod. It's the third bonus level in the smugglers campaign, and I released S18 along with it.
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27783-wip-smugglers-campaign-2/?do=findComment&amp;comment=396199

I dropped the links there, but if you want to see some images, here:
Full map image: https://i.imgur.com/RuNssbq.jpg
Starting position: https://prnt.sc/m7sii3
Attack the enemy: https://prnt.sc/m7t5wu

That's all, have fun if you have a play. If not, the .bmp file is in the zip at least. And, a technical analysis is in the above post for a more meta commentary on the map design.

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Looks promising. When that campaign it's finished I want to play it at full experience.

By the way, on the sample map that trigger the error; did you try to make the AI to not have any kind of priority on buildings? so he will attack the closest enemy; maybe this way, if the player it's blocking the bridge that AI try to first go against the units in the bridge instead trying to focus on the player's windtrap (or whatever other building) and avoiding the game to crash for trying to reach a building too blocked to reach.

Later you can play it on easy and cheat (more money, more income or whatever) just to bumb dozen of units to occupy plenty of room and seeing if the game crash or not (or even removing the AI and doing the same, just to test who it's the one that cause the error, the AI or the player).

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6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Looks promising. When that campaign it's finished I want to play it at full experience.

Entirely fair, but I did add one of those changes to the tileset in that full map image - some destruction to the environment! A crashed Carryall or Freighter here, a shattered Harvester there. Some of it serves as additional infantry-only terrain, too, so we can get some variation in that. Although the anti-tank spikes are expected to be the main.

Here are a couple more screenshots from under the stategy section of the spoiler in the campaign WIP thread. Here we can see more craters in the Supply Depot, more use of the hybrid infantry-only / LRA platform, and some raised platform:
https://prnt.sc/m7ssk1
https://prnt.sc/m7syzr

Those are outdated; there's more destruction in the environment in the uploaded draft of the map, as seen in the full map image. Also note that this map, being the maximum size, hopes to achieve a sense of size and scale as the player navigates the massive installation not only fighting enemy units of various sorts, but finding a lot of red herrings in mostly empty Freighters and installation structures that don't really do anything, too. Like those four Refineries outside the enemy's main base; those are all there just for the player to capture, destroy, or simply pass by. The only threat in those areas is a couple of Gun Turrets that aren't rebuilt after being destroyed. Even the map edges connect to other areas out of sight, hopefully furthering the impression that you're in only a small part of this ship. Even the bridge you start on at the beginning has a couple of concrete tiles where Gun Turrets were supposed to be, and if you look in the other three corners of the map, they have active Gun Turrets that weren't destroyed before the map began. It's one of those little details.

Anyway, aside from adding more destruction to the map, I haven't been able to make the top border bolder without making it look funny. I used lightening tools and desaturation to make the white and black borders, and the blue / green border was a series of hue adjustments. So, lightening the border only makes it look really... out of place? I mean, I guess I could try to do it a little bit, but beyond that it'll make the map look funny.

I also tried making something jut out in the top left / right corners, but that doesn't work either. I can't get the perspective right. Hopefully, it won't be too much of an issue if I leave it alone.

Finally, I added more colors of Mass Deposit. There's one for every faction now, of the appropriate style no less. This can be useful for something, I'm sure, but the bright cyan colored Mass Deposits originally on the map were also very eye-catching and are probably the better idea for, say, multiplayer maps. If you do want to make a Heighliner battle with any of the existing factions, from Atreides to Ix, then they can have one of their own style in their main base.

In the .bmp file in the download, all of the platform edges that were the same color of base and border were replaced with void tiles if I didn't use them for the new destruction tiles. I can overwrite all but one of them with extra stuff if we decide there's something else we want to do, like that special Base Platform border idea for the Caladan tileset we were talking about previously.

Anyway, uhh, I am regarding SBON3 as a testing map for the Heighliner tileset at the moment and maybe it'd be worth a run to see if it feels less cramped than the other two testing maps. I zipped everything up for easy copy + paste, for both installation and uninstallation, so it shouldn't be too much of a hassle. If you want to just check out the map without the mod, all the Heavy Factories will be friendly to you at the start and you'll be playing as the Imperials, so you won't run into terrible resistance as you move around and look at stuff. With the mod, it's a legit map. So. :P

7 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way, on the sample map that trigger the error; did you try to make the AI to not have any kind of priority on buildings? so he will attack the closest enemy; maybe this way, if the player it's blocking the bridge that AI try to first go against the units in the bridge instead trying to focus on the player's windtrap (or whatever other building) and avoiding the game to crash for trying to reach a building too blocked to reach.

Later you can play it on easy and cheat (more money, more income or whatever) just to bumb dozen of units to occupy plenty of room and seeing if the game crash or not (or even removing the AI and doing the same, just to test who it's the one that cause the error, the AI or the player).

Ah, no, I haven't done that. Removing all the priorities will make the AI attack the closest thing every time? I didn't know that.

Speaking of blockages though, that LRA platform / infantry-only path hybrid idea has had some good results. Aside from covering more terrain, expanding range of movement and helping pathing somewhat, it also means Missile Tanks need Grenadier or Siege Tank support on the LRA platform or enemy infantry can rush over and blow 'em up. Despite that, it's a very favorable position for Missile Tanks because they can take pot-shots at other vehicles crossing the bridge well beyond their range.

Like I said earlier, I left SBON3 on overnight with an AI set to repair my turrets and stuff, and I didn't wake up to any pathing-related game crashes. Or, any game crashes, for that matter!

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1 hour ago, Fey said:

Finally, I added more colors of Mass Deposit. There's one for every faction now, of the appropriate style no less. This can be useful for something, I'm sure, but the bright cyan colored Mass Deposits originally on the map were also very eye-catching and are probably the better idea for, say, multiplayer maps. If you do want to make a Heighliner battle with any of the existing factions, from Atreides to Ix, then they can have one of their own style in their main base.

That's something good. This will let people (and myself) to make wonders.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Ah, no, I haven't done that. Removing all the priorities will make the AI attack the closest thing every time? I didn't know that.

Yes; I can't tell if it's based on the overall rectangle formed by the base, counting the center of that such area or the corners, of it is based on the point of 1 specific factory or building (or how distance is measured), but that works and you already played a map with this set up.

That one on my Mercenary campaign; that map you said the AI recieve deliveries too abundant and quickly; that one. On this map there are 3 enemy Ai's and 1 neutral toward you. Only the 2 weakest Ai's will send attacks against you, while the other just build and keep attacking the other guy, leaving the player alone unless you go too close for them.

This is the proof.
https://prnt.sc/m85yy6

As you can see, the human player (smuggler) have a insane amount of buildings and units at the front, but the Harkonenn are marching against another AI much more smaller and weaker. No alliances at all.

Maybe diagonal tiles count as 2 or at 1.5 per tile, I don't know for sure, but yes, AI with no priority will go against the closest building or units possible (if I place units more at the bottom then those units will go after me). The AI just behave as when you create a drop, attacking the nearest enemy they find).

I made this feature as the main theme for that campaign. I was trying to tell the player "you are not a main faction, so you shouldn't be the focus of all your enemies"; almost every map have enemies with no priorities whatsoever.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Tell me something. I pointed that the corner looked too transitable (although it wasn't); you added there a brown like-a-wall, right? just like "you cannot cross from this tile into that other tile because this small wall it's blocking your path", I got that right?

Because I can deal with that change. I like that walaround to make the corner non transitable although it looked that you could go there. There is something I want to question here: I don't have the tileset in front on me right now, so I cannot see clearly what of the two options you made on the tilesets

I mean, if ouy made the tiles like this:
https://prnt.sc/m86avo
Red tile: Columns only
Green tile, Floor + wall

Or this other way:
https://prnt.sc/m86axm
Yellow tile: Column + Wall
Blue tile: Floor only

I didn't ever did squares there, so don't look at that too seriosly; I hope you understand what I am trying to question here; just to know if your 2 tiles are created into my red+green combination or the yellow+blue one.

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On 1/16/2019 at 6:11 PM, Cm_blast said:

That's something good. This will let people (and myself) to make wonders.

I can't wait to see 'em. :D

On 1/16/2019 at 6:11 PM, Cm_blast said:

Yes; I can't tell if it's based on the overall rectangle formed by the base, counting the center of that such area or the corners, of it is based on the point of 1 specific factory or building (or how distance is measured), but that works and you already played a map with this set up.

That one on my Mercenary campaign; that map you said the AI recieve deliveries too abundant and quickly; that one. On this map there are 3 enemy Ai's and 1 neutral toward you. Only the 2 weakest Ai's will send attacks against you, while the other just build and keep attacking the other guy, leaving the player alone unless you go too close for them.

This is the proof.
https://prnt.sc/m85yy6

As you can see, the human player (smuggler) have a insane amount of buildings and units at the front, but the Harkonenn are marching against another AI much more smaller and weaker. No alliances at all.

Maybe diagonal tiles count as 2 or at 1.5 per tile, I don't know for sure, but yes, AI with no priority will go against the closest building or units possible (if I place units more at the bottom then those units will go after me). The AI just behave as when you create a drop, attacking the nearest enemy they find).

I made this feature as the main theme for that campaign. I was trying to tell the player "you are not a main faction, so you shouldn't be the focus of all your enemies"; almost every map have enemies with no priorities whatsoever.

Wow, that's really interesting. I'm definitely going to use that going forward... or backwards, even. When I go back and adjust the OG smugglers campaign, S06V1 needs more attacks at midfield and less attacks on the player's base.

On 1/16/2019 at 6:11 PM, Cm_blast said:

Tell me something. I pointed that the corner looked too transitable (although it wasn't); you added there a brown like-a-wall, right? just like "you cannot cross from this tile into that other tile because this small wall it's blocking your path", I got that right?

Because I can deal with that change. I like that walaround to make the corner non transitable although it looked that you could go there. There is something I want to question here: I don't have the tileset in front on me right now, so I cannot see clearly what of the two options you made on the tilesets

I mean, if ouy made the tiles like this:
https://prnt.sc/m86avo
Red tile: Columns only
Green tile, Floor + wall

Or this other way:
https://prnt.sc/m86axm
Yellow tile: Column + Wall
Blue tile: Floor only

I didn't ever did squares there, so don't look at that too seriosly; I hope you understand what I am trying to question here; just to know if your 2 tiles are created into my red+green combination or the yellow+blue one.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're asking. The brown wall was in previous versions of the tileset, but it's only available on Base Platform. Otherwise, the blue / green wall can be placed on black or white platform. Could you rephrase the question?

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