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Runtowin

[WIP] Mercenary Campaign - Fall of Emperor

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39 minutes ago, Fey said:

Hey, there ain't nothing wrong with the original style of gameplay! I love variation, myself, but too much S2V2 or S3B1 is gonna get old too. You could try changing up the set-up, like enemy MCVs fly in and then start building up and stuff. You can custom-tailor an AI to build in whatever order you'd like and use tech level / build rate events to make adjustments, like an AI that builds buildings until the last one in the tech tree, then uses all that stockpiled Spice to pump out units at build rate 1! Eh?

The best thing with non-base-vs-base is I don't need much time to test! Easy life.

Anyway, this is a RTS after all, so it's hard to go long without some kind of base-vs-base mission. However, I won't let the player to deal with 3-4 base-vs-base mission straight, I'll try to spice things up if I do.

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7 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

The best thing with non-base-vs-base is I don't need much time to test! Easy life.

Anyway, this is a RTS after all, so it's hard to go long without some kind of base-vs-base mission. However, I won't let the player to deal with 3-4 base-vs-base mission straight, I'll try to spice things up if I do.

I know the feel, man. :P You done much tinkering with the AI yet? You know how to fine-tune the build order?

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3 minutes ago, Fey said:

I know the feel, man. :P You done much tinkering with the AI yet? You know how to fine-tune the build order?

Yes. One of my mission (currently) has that feature.

I already planned the settings of the next 4 missions (8-->11). You can expect more of that.

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2 hours ago, Runtowin said:

Moreover, you don't need your north base intact to win. In fact, it's a bit easier if you left it destroyed.

Well, the last time I lost that part of the base and I couldn't win (Or the Atreides couldn't). Also, no tanks or those free deliveries they are given from time to time, so I was trying to avoid loosing that part at least at the beggining.

Also also, I have more stuff in the right part of the base because I was trying to take the other imperial base, but didn't left the other totally unprotected. If those units went to the right part (and being helped by the smuggler) I could take them out, but that part just me alone I can't; at that point I have more or less the same number of units that him; but of course, for my quad he has a devastator and for a infantry he has a Sardaukar. I would need to have double the units that him to not loose buildings.

Maybe next time I try a different tactic, not caring about the heavy factory at all (capturing it so the enemy lost a few units trying to kill the free tanks given) but that's all, and then luring the enemy into the smuggler base or something; I don't know, Atreides loosing most of the enemies on a futile attack didn't help (I mean, in that imagen one of his harverster it's being attacked but they barely came with 2 combat tanks, 1 quad... so I couldn't receive some help).

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Played mission 6. Lots of scout indeed and even more saves to do. Not even those Sierra games did me save so often T_T.

No need to cover with spoiler, besides being hitted (or killed) a few times, I only needed 2 tries to destroy all the stuff needed.

Do you think you can add a %timer on the mission failed - Raider event? When the raider it's destroyed my first reaction was to press "esc" to bring up the menu and load the save. However the game just give me the "mission failed" and quit the game.

Just a few seconds of room; so if I see the raider exploting I can reload the game instatly (but if I don't, the game just ended like normal).

Spoiler

If you are interested, you can use the play sound 116 event to hear the "Death Hand misille detected" line.

Also, I am half mission 7: I can tell your campaign it's overall pretty hard. It's really hard to paid attention to so many fronts.

Spoiler

I took north base as soon as I could. With my first raider I saw they barely have stuff there I went with a few troopers and the saboteurs to take the turrets and then going with my full force and capture multiple buildings.

When I had a new base established I was trying to take out the remaining imperial buildings but suddenly a huge spacing guild came and beat me T_T.

I decided to load prior to that moment and let the imperial buildings be there and instead being a bit more on the back. This time that big spacing guild force went against the Ordos; of course that made a big difference.

I am near 1 hour of game and for now both north and south expansion bases are down (good thing I was only preparing to attack but not attacking when the expansion part appear). I saved the game but for now I'll stop. I don't know how many guys are there, but I can see at least 3 more enemies to destroy.

Probably I am halfway the mission, or at least I hope there isn't any more surprises for this level.

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3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Do you think you can add a %timer on the mission failed - Raider event?

Sure.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Played mission 6. Lots of scout indeed and even more saves to do. Not even those Sierra games did me save so often T_T.

Haha. I take that as a compliment.

 

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

If you are interested, you can use the play sound 116 event to hear the "Death Hand misille detected" line.

I see. Never know this.

 

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Also, I am half mission 7: I can tell your campaign it's overall pretty hard. It's really hard to paid attention to so many fronts.

Yes, so that player wont get bored waiting for their army to come out. I want the mission to be intense to the very end.

Once you get used to that, you will find competitive multiplayer quite similar.

 

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

(good thing I was only preparing to attack but not attacking when the expansion part appear)

Haha, you're really lucky there. That base will be nasty if you left it alone.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Runtowin said:

I see. Never know this.

Yes, the play sound includes all the sound effects but also dialogue lines. I remember there was a "territory lost" line or something like that. Or for example the classic line from Dune 2 "enemy units approaching" it's present too.

7 hours ago, Runtowin said:

Yes, so that player wont get bored waiting for their army to come out. I want the mission to be intense to the very end.

Even withouth enemys there is always something to do: moving that harverster, reparing the damaged vehicles, placing some missing/destroyed buildings, checking how many harverster/carryalls I have, giving a look at the enemy base and looking the amount of units/turrets there are, more mining areas for me or for the enemy to exploit...

In yours I build random most the time, it's too frenetic.

By the way; Maybe you consider giving your ally (talking mission 7) the harversters in a differents moments. You give him like 6 harversters or more, but the problem it's the AI, when he builds his first Ref all the harvs will going to that spot. Doesn't matter if later he build extra refs, the harvs still will going to the first one (and they were so many that the haversters were blocking one another). But maybe it's intended.

7 hours ago, Runtowin said:

Once you get used to that, you will find competitive multiplayer quite similar.

That's the reason I don't like playing like that. Just playing at max speed where I have no clue what I am doing and just placing 4 different type of buildings because those are the best or just the others are useless and building 2 type of units at most to win. I prefert building everything at 100% and take the big-insane-ultra-powerfull prebuilded base the AI have and I need to figure how to take with my currents weapons.

Heh, even on my own campaigns I usually kill the infantry by shooting, not by crushing over them.

7 hours ago, Runtowin said:

Haha, you're really lucky there. That base will be nasty if you left it alone.

With the multiple enemies and the massive armys they have; I'll was going to do things very slowly, but in case that happens when I am in the middle of an attack I'll probably load a previous save :P (except if the attack was sucessfull, like destroying the whole base or being almost destroyed, in this case I'll continue and adapt to the new situation).

Final edit:
Aaaand, I finish the map. Another hour and a half for a total of 2 hours and 30 minutes.
After killing 1500 enemy units plus near 500 from Ordos (which were useless the last hour of gameplay) took 2000 looses to the enemy to finally being fully defeated.

What can I say. A very good final mission for a though campaign and... wait, what do you put there?

On 19/3/2018 at 11:34 AM, Runtowin said:

The campaign features:

  • 25+ missions.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo T_T.
When more missions will be released I'll play them on easy, not even third of this campaign and several the missions already take me 1 hour to win.

A final suggestion. Remove the mission fail on the MCV; you can make a warning on screen "don't deploy that thing or you will explode" so if the player actually try to use it, you loose (a well deserved loose). But I was doing lots of stuff and a somepoint the game said "mission failed" and I was "what?.

As soon as I reloaded the map I saw I clicked on accident on the MCV icon instead the tank.

Maybe it's intended and by now you are laughing: "ha ha, that idiot missclick the MCV, what a looser, in fact, literally: mission failed! muahahahahaha". But I'll prefer to not loose my progress just because a miss click. I mean, I didn't "died", or "let my ally died" or "deployed something" or "destroyed a building I need to capture", which need premeditation and it's my fault, but loosing because that it's like a punch. Good thing I save often, but imagine if I loose 15-20 minutes (from the already 2:30 hours) of game because I clicked on a wrong icon.

Edited by Cm_blast

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5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, the play sound includes all the sound effects but also dialogue lines. I remember there was a "territory lost" line or something like that. Or for example the classic line from Dune 2 "enemy units approaching" it's present too.

I'll explore this.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Even withouth enemys there is always something to do: moving that harverster, reparing the damaged vehicles, placing some missing/destroyed buildings, checking how many harverster/carryalls I have, giving a look at the enemy base and looking the amount of units/turrets there are, more mining areas for me or for the enemy to exploit...

In yours I build random most the time, it's too frenetic.

I never have any problem doing any of them. Maybe I'm just used to that.

My army in my campaign is mixed when testing. Raider for scouting + jebaiting, quad for taking down turret/missile tank, combat tank for tank, etc.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way; Maybe you consider giving your ally (talking mission 7) the harversters in a differents moments. You give him like 6 harversters or more, but the problem it's the AI, when he builds his first Ref all the harvs will going to that spot. Doesn't matter if later he build extra refs, the harvs still will going to the first one (and they were so many that the haversters were blocking one another). But maybe it's intended.

Yep, I notice this in testing but haven't make a solution yet. Even if you drop it in different time, they will run into their nearest refinery.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

With the multiple enemies and the massive armys they have; I'll was going to do things very slowly, but in case that happens when I am in the middle of an attack I'll probably load a previous save :P (except if the attack was sucessfull, like destroying the whole base or being almost destroyed, in this case I'll continue and adapt to the new situation).

It's not my place to say this, I think you're being too careful there. You can do both just fine (I do that a lot in my test run).

 

6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

That's the reason I don't like playing like that. Just playing at max speed where I have no clue what I am doing and just placing 4 different type of buildings because those are the best or just the others are useless and building 2 type of units at most to win. I prefert building everything at 100% and take the big-insane-ultra-powerfull prebuilded base the AI have and I need to figure how to take with my currents weapons.

While I agree that RTS multiplayer often play like that, I always build all buildings, unless there is not enough space. Even in my testing run.

3 of all production buildings, except high tech factory, 3-4 refineries, a lot of harvesters (I lost count after 10 though).

To be honest, dune 2000 multiplayer map don't have that many fronts at all. I'm referring to AOE, when I'm making that statement.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Aaaand, I finish the map. Another hour and a half for a total of 2 hours and 30 minutes.

For the record, in my 3 test run of current version, it took me an average of ~66min.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

When more missions will be released I'll play them on easy, not even third of this campaign and several the missions already take me 1 hour to win.

Well, I'm afraid that when I tuned it down, a certain somebody will complain about how easy it is, and beat the mission before the timer.

I will nerf AI in those missions anyway. Thanks for your feedback. Like I said, I have no idea where the best balance is, since I don't have any other testers.

At least, I can add "20+ hours of gameplay" in campaign description. Haha.

 

6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

A final suggestion. Remove the mission fail on the MCV; you can make a warning on screen "don't deploy that thing or you will explode" so if the player actually try to use it, you loose (a well deserved loose). But I was doing lots of stuff and a somepoint the game said "mission failed" and I was "what?.

As soon as I reloaded the map I saw I clicked on accident on the MCV icon instead the tank.

Maybe it's intended and by now you are laughing: "ha ha, that idiot missclick the MCV, what a looser, in fact, literally: mission failed! muahahahahaha". But I'll prefer to not loose my progress just because a miss click. I mean, I didn't "died", or "let my ally died" or "deployed something" or "destroyed a building I need to capture", which need premeditation and it's my fault, but loosing because that it's like a punch. Good thing I save often, but imagine if I loose 15-20 minutes (from the already 2:30 hours) of game because I clicked on a wrong icon.

I understand that feeling, because I misclick often myself. I'll see what I can do, Some missions don't have enough space.

Most likely, I'll add strong enemy reinforcement when you do, and remind you that you have MCV.

And no, I didn't laugh. I'm not a fan of unfair punishment.

 

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5 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

My army in my campaign is mixed when testing. Raider for scouting + jebaiting, quad for taking down turret/missile tank, combat tank for tank, etc.

In my case everytime I trying to use X to counter Y, the enemy it's already sending another wave and the only thing I can do it's group, pressing "g" and hope for the best (Because my ally it's under attack, my harverster it's under attack, my base it's under attack, I suffered a heart attack...).

8 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

Yep, I notice this in testing but haven't make a solution yet. Even if you drop it in different time, they will run into their nearest refinery.

I found that the position on the map will depend on the refinery. For example, I have a map with 1 refinery at the top AI base, another at the bottom, and the harversters start harversting the nearest area but then both goes to the same refinery (don't  remember if it was top or bottom), and moving the initial harverster position a few squares (so now all the harversters at the bottom of the nearest ref, before 1 was on top) and now goes to the one it's suppose to.

I don't remember right now if I did exactly that, but sometimes just depending if the harverster it's to the right, left, top or bottom of the refinery will change which one choose as the default to unload the spice.

For a AI practice type of map I have no idea, I not use too often those type of AI.

16 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

It's not my place to say this, I think you're being too careful there. You can do both just fine (I do that a lot in my test run).

I don't thing so. I "loose" when the spacing guild send the big army against me (I loaded the save, retreated a bit so he focused the Ordos instead). Well, I exactly didn't loose, but the north part was going to fall and I was just starting to build more refs.

All the army I had prepared for an attack was used to take out those expantion bases. I didn't give him time to do something but I still have a good amount of looses. I don't want to imagine if I need to fight 4 enemies at once.

20 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

For the record, in my 3 test run of current version, it took me an average of ~66min.

Playing the game at what speed? the maximun possible?

27 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

Well, I'm afraid that when I tuned it down, a certain somebody will complain about how easy it is, and beat the mission before the timer.

I will nerf AI in those missions anyway. Thanks for your feedback. Like I said, I have no idea where the best balance is, since I don't have any other testers.

At least, I can add "20+ hours of gameplay" in campaign description. Haha

I know. This it's going to happen always.

Some people find X campaign or map hard or impossible, and then you saw a video from X guy beating the game in much less time that I do.

But still. I'll continue playing (future maps) in easy. That will cut more than a half of the enemy reinforcements but I still can see things here or there. That's why "easy" was made for.

29 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

I understand that feeling, because I misclick often myself. I'll see what I can do, Some missions don't have enough space.

This one you have slots enough. It's not the first time someone use the "build a VCM, lost the game"; I usually try to just set the CY condition; you still can use the MCV as a distraction or a heavy-armored tank with no weapon to drag aggro xD.


By the way, I am spying your map and I can see some values on the unit build priority using decimals, a trooper with 1,100, the trike with 1,300. I don't know how the AI works with decimal numbers (Except the 0,010 used for the eenginer by the practice AI), but I can guess using decimals you are setting which unit it's builded first before getting the 1:1 proportion or something like that?

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7 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

In my case everytime I trying to use X to counter Y, the enemy it's already sending another wave and the only thing I can do it's group, pressing "g" and hope for the best (Because my ally it's under attack, my harverster it's under attack, my base it's under attack, I suffered a heart attack...).

Lol. I have a group at my base, a small group at my flank, a small group at my ally's base, and switch to them if I heard "under attack".

 

13 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

For a AI practice type of map I have no idea, I not use too often those type of AI.

I have a feeling that Starpost delivery will work. I'll try it out later.

 

14 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Playing the game at what speed? the maximun possible?

Normal speed. I have an in-game timer on for testing. I think they're 1:1, not sure what with max speed.

 

17 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Some people find X campaign or map hard or impossible, and then you saw a video from X guy beating the game in much less time that I do.

TFW I see a speed run video. Speaking of which, I don't see any Dune2000 speed run video.

 

18 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I usually try to just set the CY condition; you still can use the MCV as a distraction or a heavy-armored tank with no weapon to drag aggro xD.

Ah, an alternative to my harvester strats! Will try it out in Fey's campaign.

 

19 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way, I am spying your map and I can see some values on the unit build priority using decimals, a trooper with 1,100, the trike with 1,300. I don't know how the AI works with decimal numbers (Except the 0,010 used for the eenginer by the practice AI), but I can guess using decimals you are setting which unit it's builded first before getting the 1:1 proportion or something like that?

I think it works similar to BuildPriority, sorted in decreasing order when divided by the number of units. For example, a unit (A) with build priority 2, and one (B) with 0.55 will be built with the following order:

A A A B A

Because,

First A: 2/1 = 2

Second A: 2/2 = 1

Third A: 2/3 = 0.6666

Fourth A: 2/4 = 0.5

First B: 0.55/1 = 0.55

Fifth A: 2/5 = 0.4

etc

So decimal doesn't matter. There might be rounding error, but it is not game-breaking.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

Lol. I have a group at my base, a small group at my flank, a small group at my ally's base, and switch to them if I heard "under attack".

And while I am paying attention to group 1, group 2 it's being decimated by enemy missile launchers with a greater range or my combat tanks (in guard mode) are figthing devastators 1 by 1 instead focusing the fire, but I can't paid attention to both; , once I already lost the Ordos (they started selling all the buildings), and at that point I was trying to open an attack at bottom while enemies were coming at top and spacing guild destroying Ordos harversters, I think.

38 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

Normal speed. I have an in-game timer on for testing. I think they're 1:1, not sure what with max speed.

Well I call normal speed I mean "real time" speed. 20 minutes in game are 20 minutes in real life. I think in the online C&C.net (dune 2000 one) it's the 6 out of 7.
Anyway, you are much more skilled than me, that's for sure.

38 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

TFW I see a speed run video. Speaking of which, I don't see any Dune2000 speed run video.

I think there are for Red Alert 2 and the final mission on Dune Emperor.

38 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

I think it works similar to BuildPriority, sorted in decreasing order when divided by the number of units. For example, a unit (A) with build priority 2, and one (B) with 0.55 will be built with the following order:

Works similar, but not the same. A building set to 0,010 will be builded the last, but if you give a unit the 0,010 will build the unit the first of all, but only 1 of that unit. The AI practice default do this, and he rush a new eengineer as soon as the available die.

I just trying your example with infantry A and trooper B and yes, it's a 4:1 proportion, but the trooper got trained the first, and of course, after 5 units were out, unit number 6 were another trooper. So it's a bit tricky. 

So maybe the decimals have more purpose that it seems. making a "enemy base with low unit production, go inside and do stuff" to choose with decimals what units it's builded first, then second, etc... even if a the end it's just a 1:1 proportion. Having an enemy base which first unit it's a combat tank, or a devastator first (by default I think he builds the infantry first), that can make doing stuff inside a base much harder, even if the emergency build it's really low.

Edited by Cm_blast

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Works similar, but not the same. A building set to 0,010 will be builded the last, but if you give a unit the 0,010 will build the unit the first of all, but only 1 of that unit. The AI practice default do this, and he rush a new eengineer as soon as the available die.

I just trying your example with infantry A and trooper B and yes, it's a 4:1 proportion, but the trooper got trained the first, and of course, after 5 units were out, unit number 6 were another trooper. So it's a bit tricky. 

So maybe the decimals have more purpose that it seems. making a "enemy base with low unit production, go inside and do stuff" to choose with decimals what units it's builded first, then second, etc... even if a the end it's just a 1:1 proportion. Having an enemy base which first unit it's a combat tank, or a devastator first (by default I think he builds the infantry first), that can make doing stuff inside a base much harder, even if the emergency build it's really low.

The only possible calculation I can think of is:

B: 1/0.55 = 1.818

A: 1/2 = 0.5

A: 2/1 = 2

A: 2/2 = 1

A: 2/3 = 0.6666

B: 0.55/1 = 0.55

 

In other word, for only the first unit, they take the inverse of build priority. Then the rest of them just follows the formula but minus one. If this is true, it would explain why engineer always come first for practice AI.

Edited by Runtowin

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On 2018/3/30 at 11:48 PM, Runtowin said:

Yes. One of my mission (currently) has that feature.

I already planned the settings of the next 4 missions (8-->11). You can expect more of that.

Thanks for that, I 've tried Mission 1-6 in hard difficulty, feeling like you could never do something wrong otherwise you lost.(especially mission 4, I played like 20 times to make it). I'm very looking forward to playing ur next 4 missions, have a good day. :D

My Dune 2000 Youtube Gameplay Videos' Channel

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On 4/11/2018 at 2:55 AM, AlphaZero said:

Thanks for that, I 've tried Mission 1-6 in hard difficulty, feeling like you could never do something wrong otherwise you lost.(especially mission 4, I played like 20 times to make it). I'm very looking forward to playing ur next 4 missions, have a good day. :D

My Dune 2000 Youtube Gameplay Videos' Channel

Thanks man, I greatly appreciate it.

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