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Runtowin

[WIP] Mercenary Campaign - Fall of Emperor

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39 minutes ago, Fey said:

Hey, there ain't nothing wrong with the original style of gameplay! I love variation, myself, but too much S2V2 or S3B1 is gonna get old too. You could try changing up the set-up, like enemy MCVs fly in and then start building up and stuff. You can custom-tailor an AI to build in whatever order you'd like and use tech level / build rate events to make adjustments, like an AI that builds buildings until the last one in the tech tree, then uses all that stockpiled Spice to pump out units at build rate 1! Eh?

The best thing with non-base-vs-base is I don't need much time to test! Easy life.

Anyway, this is a RTS after all, so it's hard to go long without some kind of base-vs-base mission. However, I won't let the player to deal with 3-4 base-vs-base mission straight, I'll try to spice things up if I do.

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7 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

The best thing with non-base-vs-base is I don't need much time to test! Easy life.

Anyway, this is a RTS after all, so it's hard to go long without some kind of base-vs-base mission. However, I won't let the player to deal with 3-4 base-vs-base mission straight, I'll try to spice things up if I do.

I know the feel, man. :P You done much tinkering with the AI yet? You know how to fine-tune the build order?

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3 minutes ago, Fey said:

I know the feel, man. :P You done much tinkering with the AI yet? You know how to fine-tune the build order?

Yes. One of my mission (currently) has that feature.

I already planned the settings of the next 4 missions (8-->11). You can expect more of that.

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2 hours ago, Runtowin said:

Moreover, you don't need your north base intact to win. In fact, it's a bit easier if you left it destroyed.

Well, the last time I lost that part of the base and I couldn't win (Or the Atreides couldn't). Also, no tanks or those free deliveries they are given from time to time, so I was trying to avoid loosing that part at least at the beggining.

Also also, I have more stuff in the right part of the base because I was trying to take the other imperial base, but didn't left the other totally unprotected. If those units went to the right part (and being helped by the smuggler) I could take them out, but that part just me alone I can't; at that point I have more or less the same number of units that him; but of course, for my quad he has a devastator and for a infantry he has a Sardaukar. I would need to have double the units that him to not loose buildings.

Maybe next time I try a different tactic, not caring about the heavy factory at all (capturing it so the enemy lost a few units trying to kill the free tanks given) but that's all, and then luring the enemy into the smuggler base or something; I don't know, Atreides loosing most of the enemies on a futile attack didn't help (I mean, in that imagen one of his harverster it's being attacked but they barely came with 2 combat tanks, 1 quad... so I couldn't receive some help).

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Played mission 6. Lots of scout indeed and even more saves to do. Not even those Sierra games did me save so often T_T.

No need to cover with spoiler, besides being hitted (or killed) a few times, I only needed 2 tries to destroy all the stuff needed.

Do you think you can add a %timer on the mission failed - Raider event? When the raider it's destroyed my first reaction was to press "esc" to bring up the menu and load the save. However the game just give me the "mission failed" and quit the game.

Just a few seconds of room; so if I see the raider exploting I can reload the game instatly (but if I don't, the game just ended like normal).

Spoiler

If you are interested, you can use the play sound 116 event to hear the "Death Hand misille detected" line.

Also, I am half mission 7: I can tell your campaign it's overall pretty hard. It's really hard to paid attention to so many fronts.

Spoiler

I took north base as soon as I could. With my first raider I saw they barely have stuff there I went with a few troopers and the saboteurs to take the turrets and then going with my full force and capture multiple buildings.

When I had a new base established I was trying to take out the remaining imperial buildings but suddenly a huge spacing guild came and beat me T_T.

I decided to load prior to that moment and let the imperial buildings be there and instead being a bit more on the back. This time that big spacing guild force went against the Ordos; of course that made a big difference.

I am near 1 hour of game and for now both north and south expansion bases are down (good thing I was only preparing to attack but not attacking when the expansion part appear). I saved the game but for now I'll stop. I don't know how many guys are there, but I can see at least 3 more enemies to destroy.

Probably I am halfway the mission, or at least I hope there isn't any more surprises for this level.

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3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Do you think you can add a %timer on the mission failed - Raider event?

Sure.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Played mission 6. Lots of scout indeed and even more saves to do. Not even those Sierra games did me save so often T_T.

Haha. I take that as a compliment.

 

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

If you are interested, you can use the play sound 116 event to hear the "Death Hand misille detected" line.

I see. Never know this.

 

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Also, I am half mission 7: I can tell your campaign it's overall pretty hard. It's really hard to paid attention to so many fronts.

Yes, so that player wont get bored waiting for their army to come out. I want the mission to be intense to the very end.

Once you get used to that, you will find competitive multiplayer quite similar.

 

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

(good thing I was only preparing to attack but not attacking when the expansion part appear)

Haha, you're really lucky there. That base will be nasty if you left it alone.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Runtowin said:

I see. Never know this.

Yes, the play sound includes all the sound effects but also dialogue lines. I remember there was a "territory lost" line or something like that. Or for example the classic line from Dune 2 "enemy units approaching" it's present too.

7 hours ago, Runtowin said:

Yes, so that player wont get bored waiting for their army to come out. I want the mission to be intense to the very end.

Even withouth enemys there is always something to do: moving that harverster, reparing the damaged vehicles, placing some missing/destroyed buildings, checking how many harverster/carryalls I have, giving a look at the enemy base and looking the amount of units/turrets there are, more mining areas for me or for the enemy to exploit...

In yours I build random most the time, it's too frenetic.

By the way; Maybe you consider giving your ally (talking mission 7) the harversters in a differents moments. You give him like 6 harversters or more, but the problem it's the AI, when he builds his first Ref all the harvs will going to that spot. Doesn't matter if later he build extra refs, the harvs still will going to the first one (and they were so many that the haversters were blocking one another). But maybe it's intended.

7 hours ago, Runtowin said:

Once you get used to that, you will find competitive multiplayer quite similar.

That's the reason I don't like playing like that. Just playing at max speed where I have no clue what I am doing and just placing 4 different type of buildings because those are the best or just the others are useless and building 2 type of units at most to win. I prefert building everything at 100% and take the big-insane-ultra-powerfull prebuilded base the AI have and I need to figure how to take with my currents weapons.

Heh, even on my own campaigns I usually kill the infantry by shooting, not by crushing over them.

7 hours ago, Runtowin said:

Haha, you're really lucky there. That base will be nasty if you left it alone.

With the multiple enemies and the massive armys they have; I'll was going to do things very slowly, but in case that happens when I am in the middle of an attack I'll probably load a previous save :P (except if the attack was sucessfull, like destroying the whole base or being almost destroyed, in this case I'll continue and adapt to the new situation).

Final edit:
Aaaand, I finish the map. Another hour and a half for a total of 2 hours and 30 minutes.
After killing 1500 enemy units plus near 500 from Ordos (which were useless the last hour of gameplay) took 2000 looses to the enemy to finally being fully defeated.

What can I say. A very good final mission for a though campaign and... wait, what do you put there?

On 19/3/2018 at 11:34 AM, Runtowin said:

The campaign features:

  • 25+ missions.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo T_T.
When more missions will be released I'll play them on easy, not even third of this campaign and several the missions already take me 1 hour to win.

A final suggestion. Remove the mission fail on the MCV; you can make a warning on screen "don't deploy that thing or you will explode" so if the player actually try to use it, you loose (a well deserved loose). But I was doing lots of stuff and a somepoint the game said "mission failed" and I was "what?.

As soon as I reloaded the map I saw I clicked on accident on the MCV icon instead the tank.

Maybe it's intended and by now you are laughing: "ha ha, that idiot missclick the MCV, what a looser, in fact, literally: mission failed! muahahahahaha". But I'll prefer to not loose my progress just because a miss click. I mean, I didn't "died", or "let my ally died" or "deployed something" or "destroyed a building I need to capture", which need premeditation and it's my fault, but loosing because that it's like a punch. Good thing I save often, but imagine if I loose 15-20 minutes (from the already 2:30 hours) of game because I clicked on a wrong icon.

Edited by Cm_blast

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5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, the play sound includes all the sound effects but also dialogue lines. I remember there was a "territory lost" line or something like that. Or for example the classic line from Dune 2 "enemy units approaching" it's present too.

I'll explore this.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Even withouth enemys there is always something to do: moving that harverster, reparing the damaged vehicles, placing some missing/destroyed buildings, checking how many harverster/carryalls I have, giving a look at the enemy base and looking the amount of units/turrets there are, more mining areas for me or for the enemy to exploit...

In yours I build random most the time, it's too frenetic.

I never have any problem doing any of them. Maybe I'm just used to that.

My army in my campaign is mixed when testing. Raider for scouting + jebaiting, quad for taking down turret/missile tank, combat tank for tank, etc.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way; Maybe you consider giving your ally (talking mission 7) the harversters in a differents moments. You give him like 6 harversters or more, but the problem it's the AI, when he builds his first Ref all the harvs will going to that spot. Doesn't matter if later he build extra refs, the harvs still will going to the first one (and they were so many that the haversters were blocking one another). But maybe it's intended.

Yep, I notice this in testing but haven't make a solution yet. Even if you drop it in different time, they will run into their nearest refinery.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

With the multiple enemies and the massive armys they have; I'll was going to do things very slowly, but in case that happens when I am in the middle of an attack I'll probably load a previous save :P (except if the attack was sucessfull, like destroying the whole base or being almost destroyed, in this case I'll continue and adapt to the new situation).

It's not my place to say this, I think you're being too careful there. You can do both just fine (I do that a lot in my test run).

 

6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

That's the reason I don't like playing like that. Just playing at max speed where I have no clue what I am doing and just placing 4 different type of buildings because those are the best or just the others are useless and building 2 type of units at most to win. I prefert building everything at 100% and take the big-insane-ultra-powerfull prebuilded base the AI have and I need to figure how to take with my currents weapons.

While I agree that RTS multiplayer often play like that, I always build all buildings, unless there is not enough space. Even in my testing run.

3 of all production buildings, except high tech factory, 3-4 refineries, a lot of harvesters (I lost count after 10 though).

To be honest, dune 2000 multiplayer map don't have that many fronts at all. I'm referring to AOE, when I'm making that statement.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Aaaand, I finish the map. Another hour and a half for a total of 2 hours and 30 minutes.

For the record, in my 3 test run of current version, it took me an average of ~66min.

 

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

When more missions will be released I'll play them on easy, not even third of this campaign and several the missions already take me 1 hour to win.

Well, I'm afraid that when I tuned it down, a certain somebody will complain about how easy it is, and beat the mission before the timer.

I will nerf AI in those missions anyway. Thanks for your feedback. Like I said, I have no idea where the best balance is, since I don't have any other testers.

At least, I can add "20+ hours of gameplay" in campaign description. Haha.

 

6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

A final suggestion. Remove the mission fail on the MCV; you can make a warning on screen "don't deploy that thing or you will explode" so if the player actually try to use it, you loose (a well deserved loose). But I was doing lots of stuff and a somepoint the game said "mission failed" and I was "what?.

As soon as I reloaded the map I saw I clicked on accident on the MCV icon instead the tank.

Maybe it's intended and by now you are laughing: "ha ha, that idiot missclick the MCV, what a looser, in fact, literally: mission failed! muahahahahaha". But I'll prefer to not loose my progress just because a miss click. I mean, I didn't "died", or "let my ally died" or "deployed something" or "destroyed a building I need to capture", which need premeditation and it's my fault, but loosing because that it's like a punch. Good thing I save often, but imagine if I loose 15-20 minutes (from the already 2:30 hours) of game because I clicked on a wrong icon.

I understand that feeling, because I misclick often myself. I'll see what I can do, Some missions don't have enough space.

Most likely, I'll add strong enemy reinforcement when you do, and remind you that you have MCV.

And no, I didn't laugh. I'm not a fan of unfair punishment.

 

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5 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

My army in my campaign is mixed when testing. Raider for scouting + jebaiting, quad for taking down turret/missile tank, combat tank for tank, etc.

In my case everytime I trying to use X to counter Y, the enemy it's already sending another wave and the only thing I can do it's group, pressing "g" and hope for the best (Because my ally it's under attack, my harverster it's under attack, my base it's under attack, I suffered a heart attack...).

8 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

Yep, I notice this in testing but haven't make a solution yet. Even if you drop it in different time, they will run into their nearest refinery.

I found that the position on the map will depend on the refinery. For example, I have a map with 1 refinery at the top AI base, another at the bottom, and the harversters start harversting the nearest area but then both goes to the same refinery (don't  remember if it was top or bottom), and moving the initial harverster position a few squares (so now all the harversters at the bottom of the nearest ref, before 1 was on top) and now goes to the one it's suppose to.

I don't remember right now if I did exactly that, but sometimes just depending if the harverster it's to the right, left, top or bottom of the refinery will change which one choose as the default to unload the spice.

For a AI practice type of map I have no idea, I not use too often those type of AI.

16 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

It's not my place to say this, I think you're being too careful there. You can do both just fine (I do that a lot in my test run).

I don't thing so. I "loose" when the spacing guild send the big army against me (I loaded the save, retreated a bit so he focused the Ordos instead). Well, I exactly didn't loose, but the north part was going to fall and I was just starting to build more refs.

All the army I had prepared for an attack was used to take out those expantion bases. I didn't give him time to do something but I still have a good amount of looses. I don't want to imagine if I need to fight 4 enemies at once.

20 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

For the record, in my 3 test run of current version, it took me an average of ~66min.

Playing the game at what speed? the maximun possible?

27 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

Well, I'm afraid that when I tuned it down, a certain somebody will complain about how easy it is, and beat the mission before the timer.

I will nerf AI in those missions anyway. Thanks for your feedback. Like I said, I have no idea where the best balance is, since I don't have any other testers.

At least, I can add "20+ hours of gameplay" in campaign description. Haha

I know. This it's going to happen always.

Some people find X campaign or map hard or impossible, and then you saw a video from X guy beating the game in much less time that I do.

But still. I'll continue playing (future maps) in easy. That will cut more than a half of the enemy reinforcements but I still can see things here or there. That's why "easy" was made for.

29 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

I understand that feeling, because I misclick often myself. I'll see what I can do, Some missions don't have enough space.

This one you have slots enough. It's not the first time someone use the "build a VCM, lost the game"; I usually try to just set the CY condition; you still can use the MCV as a distraction or a heavy-armored tank with no weapon to drag aggro xD.


By the way, I am spying your map and I can see some values on the unit build priority using decimals, a trooper with 1,100, the trike with 1,300. I don't know how the AI works with decimal numbers (Except the 0,010 used for the eenginer by the practice AI), but I can guess using decimals you are setting which unit it's builded first before getting the 1:1 proportion or something like that?

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7 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

In my case everytime I trying to use X to counter Y, the enemy it's already sending another wave and the only thing I can do it's group, pressing "g" and hope for the best (Because my ally it's under attack, my harverster it's under attack, my base it's under attack, I suffered a heart attack...).

Lol. I have a group at my base, a small group at my flank, a small group at my ally's base, and switch to them if I heard "under attack".

 

13 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

For a AI practice type of map I have no idea, I not use too often those type of AI.

I have a feeling that Starpost delivery will work. I'll try it out later.

 

14 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Playing the game at what speed? the maximun possible?

Normal speed. I have an in-game timer on for testing. I think they're 1:1, not sure what with max speed.

 

17 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Some people find X campaign or map hard or impossible, and then you saw a video from X guy beating the game in much less time that I do.

TFW I see a speed run video. Speaking of which, I don't see any Dune2000 speed run video.

 

18 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I usually try to just set the CY condition; you still can use the MCV as a distraction or a heavy-armored tank with no weapon to drag aggro xD.

Ah, an alternative to my harvester strats! Will try it out in Fey's campaign.

 

19 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way, I am spying your map and I can see some values on the unit build priority using decimals, a trooper with 1,100, the trike with 1,300. I don't know how the AI works with decimal numbers (Except the 0,010 used for the eenginer by the practice AI), but I can guess using decimals you are setting which unit it's builded first before getting the 1:1 proportion or something like that?

I think it works similar to BuildPriority, sorted in decreasing order when divided by the number of units. For example, a unit (A) with build priority 2, and one (B) with 0.55 will be built with the following order:

A A A B A

Because,

First A: 2/1 = 2

Second A: 2/2 = 1

Third A: 2/3 = 0.6666

Fourth A: 2/4 = 0.5

First B: 0.55/1 = 0.55

Fifth A: 2/5 = 0.4

etc

So decimal doesn't matter. There might be rounding error, but it is not game-breaking.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

Lol. I have a group at my base, a small group at my flank, a small group at my ally's base, and switch to them if I heard "under attack".

And while I am paying attention to group 1, group 2 it's being decimated by enemy missile launchers with a greater range or my combat tanks (in guard mode) are figthing devastators 1 by 1 instead focusing the fire, but I can't paid attention to both; , once I already lost the Ordos (they started selling all the buildings), and at that point I was trying to open an attack at bottom while enemies were coming at top and spacing guild destroying Ordos harversters, I think.

38 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

Normal speed. I have an in-game timer on for testing. I think they're 1:1, not sure what with max speed.

Well I call normal speed I mean "real time" speed. 20 minutes in game are 20 minutes in real life. I think in the online C&C.net (dune 2000 one) it's the 6 out of 7.
Anyway, you are much more skilled than me, that's for sure.

38 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

TFW I see a speed run video. Speaking of which, I don't see any Dune2000 speed run video.

I think there are for Red Alert 2 and the final mission on Dune Emperor.

38 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

I think it works similar to BuildPriority, sorted in decreasing order when divided by the number of units. For example, a unit (A) with build priority 2, and one (B) with 0.55 will be built with the following order:

Works similar, but not the same. A building set to 0,010 will be builded the last, but if you give a unit the 0,010 will build the unit the first of all, but only 1 of that unit. The AI practice default do this, and he rush a new eengineer as soon as the available die.

I just trying your example with infantry A and trooper B and yes, it's a 4:1 proportion, but the trooper got trained the first, and of course, after 5 units were out, unit number 6 were another trooper. So it's a bit tricky. 

So maybe the decimals have more purpose that it seems. making a "enemy base with low unit production, go inside and do stuff" to choose with decimals what units it's builded first, then second, etc... even if a the end it's just a 1:1 proportion. Having an enemy base which first unit it's a combat tank, or a devastator first (by default I think he builds the infantry first), that can make doing stuff inside a base much harder, even if the emergency build it's really low.

Edited by Cm_blast

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Works similar, but not the same. A building set to 0,010 will be builded the last, but if you give a unit the 0,010 will build the unit the first of all, but only 1 of that unit. The AI practice default do this, and he rush a new eengineer as soon as the available die.

I just trying your example with infantry A and trooper B and yes, it's a 4:1 proportion, but the trooper got trained the first, and of course, after 5 units were out, unit number 6 were another trooper. So it's a bit tricky. 

So maybe the decimals have more purpose that it seems. making a "enemy base with low unit production, go inside and do stuff" to choose with decimals what units it's builded first, then second, etc... even if a the end it's just a 1:1 proportion. Having an enemy base which first unit it's a combat tank, or a devastator first (by default I think he builds the infantry first), that can make doing stuff inside a base much harder, even if the emergency build it's really low.

The only possible calculation I can think of is:

B: 1/0.55 = 1.818

A: 1/2 = 0.5

A: 2/1 = 2

A: 2/2 = 1

A: 2/3 = 0.6666

B: 0.55/1 = 0.55

 

In other word, for only the first unit, they take the inverse of build priority. Then the rest of them just follows the formula but minus one. If this is true, it would explain why engineer always come first for practice AI.

Edited by Runtowin

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On 2018/3/30 at 11:48 PM, Runtowin said:

Yes. One of my mission (currently) has that feature.

I already planned the settings of the next 4 missions (8-->11). You can expect more of that.

Thanks for that, I 've tried Mission 1-6 in hard difficulty, feeling like you could never do something wrong otherwise you lost.(especially mission 4, I played like 20 times to make it). I'm very looking forward to playing ur next 4 missions, have a good day. :D

My Dune 2000 Youtube Gameplay Videos' Channel

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On 4/11/2018 at 2:55 AM, AlphaZero said:

Thanks for that, I 've tried Mission 1-6 in hard difficulty, feeling like you could never do something wrong otherwise you lost.(especially mission 4, I played like 20 times to make it). I'm very looking forward to playing ur next 4 missions, have a good day. :D

My Dune 2000 Youtube Gameplay Videos' Channel

Thanks man, I greatly appreciate it.

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Re-played! Let's see how the updates panned out.

My comments and criticisms are in a little different format this time but hopefully they get the point across.

M1V1:

Spoiler

 - Oh, umm, there's another error in the briefing. Jim comments on "Imperial forces," but then Jim uses "his" incorrectly. Let me just fix that...
Jim: Welcome to Arrakis, boss! In order to get accquainted with the weather here, you could supervise a Spice-harvesting operation. I have managed to locate a spice field undisturbed by the Emperor's forces. Recently, they have been actively hunting for anyone that dares to harvest "his" Spice. Good thing that this spice field is surrounded by the mountain. I doubt that they would find us here.
 -- Sorry about that. :)

 - Lost a Wind Trap to those initial Sardaukar again. I wouldn't mind so much if it didn't take my power down. I get the "Smugglers! This Spice belongs to the Emperor!" talk at the same time the Sardaukar start attacking my Wind Trap, so... add another Wind Trap or give a little more warning for that one, I think. Or, remove those four Silos out by the Barracks. I just sold them.

 - I could do without a second Harvester on this map. One was fine. I stopped one Harvester at one point because I kept getting "Silos needed." spammed at me and I had no way to spend the Solaris!

 - Jim tells you to take an MCV, but two Siege Tanks arrive. I think this is an error left over from the last version of the map, right?

 - I really like the tech level increase later on that allows the training of Troopers. That was a great change.

 - I don't know what you fed the worm on this map to make it such a jerk, but it kept coming under my infantry and forcing me to relocate if I wanted those Sardaukar to die without losing all my infantry to BS. Is that just bad RNG or did you put a couple of worms on this map?

 - The eastern turret is useless. The first attack that came from that direction wiped out my Barracks and I had to do the rest of the mission without it. Which was successful, it's just... shouldn't that turret be on the eastern wall, not northwest of the Barracks?

 - Looking at the map conditions, I see that you have a win condition dependent on the merc base being intact as well as the smuggler Starport. However, the mission does not fail if you have no structures left. This could result in the mission being lost when it should have been won. Also, wow, only one worm... so that was bad RNG.

M2V1:

Spoiler

 - Why is there a Siege Tank on guard mode literally right outside the base? And it's in the worst possible spot. I scouted the turret by itself with my light vehicles, and there's a Missile Tank there so I don't want to go any further. I build a Barracks first and send a bunch of Troopers up, and they run face-first into a Siege Tank. Mate! My Troopers! Please remove that Siege Tank or position it in front of the turret. :(

 - The Atreides announce that they've found the source of the reinforcements, but then say "destroy it" without specifying what it is. :P I see there's a map reveal, but that doesn't do too much when I don't have an Outpost because I'm spamming Refineries and Light Factories in midgame.

 - The other Siege Tanks on this level are perfectly fine. By that time I have enough light vehicles to move forward with an assault and I'm not going to have my infantry leading. It's just that first one in the main Spice field that's like "ayy lmao wassup imma kill ur guys"

 -
The level tends to drag out at the end, and at one point an enemy Harvester got stuck somewhere. I don't know where, but I'd killed everything on the Spice field and I ended up destroying the rest of the Imperials before another six Harvesters showed up out of the blue. I even checked along the cliff; it was nowhere. I have a few suggestions for remedying the end-map stuff:
 -- Make it 3 Harvesters that get delivered, not 6. If one flies back, it's another minute of waiting before that Harvester comes back.
 -- Make the new Harvesters owned by another team that doesn't have a Refinery, but does have some Carryalls to get them up there. The first Harvesters you kill can result in the Atreides saying something like, "We're getting our first batch of reinforcements. Keep destroying those Harvesters!" And then the new team's Harvesters need to be kept down, but they won't fly back because they don't have a Refinery. That way, the player can keep them down while they watch the Atreides go to town.
 --- Sometimes an AI will fly their Harvesters somewhere safe if they're under attack, even if they don't have a Refinery, in which case this will not work and it will become impossible to destroy the Harvesters they fly to safety. Perhaps this isn't such a good idea for that reason, OR... what if the Harvesters that get delivered belong to the AI you need to beat up to get to the Spice field in the first place? Then they won't fly south, but north. It'd be much less annoying than having them go deliver Spice and come back again where they can't even be touched.
 -- Add a static objective that, once destroyed, causes the Atreides to receive reinforcements on loop from then on. The Harvesters can still be an objective, but let's say once all the Imperial factories up north are taken out, the Atreides get half their reinforcements on loop and the other half can be earned by keeping their Harvesters down. Then, the map won't stagnate, as it did during my run this time and the last.

 - Just thought you should know, the Atreides still had most of their base by the time I got them reinforcements for the first time. And, they tore through the Imperial base more quickly. It'd be nice if I could keep getting them reinforcements and the map finishes faster past that point, so... hopefully the above suggestions help you out with that!

 - The intel in the briefing was also very helpful.

M3V1:

Spoiler

 - Add another minute onto the timer, please! RNG screwed me over horribly on more than one occasion when a Trike or Quad decided to stop in the only safe tile I could pass by some infantry or a turret in. It would also help alleviate issues arising from a poor sense of direction or, simply, not knowing where to go. Ten minute timer would be great!

 - There are numerous terrain aesthetics issues near the Harkonnen Palace. Clipped tiles and such.

 - Atreides transmissions clip over the timer and sidebar in the default game resolution.

 - Doesn't seem like much has changed. I don't really mind, fun map albeit short. :P

M4V1:

Spoiler

 - There is a typo in the briefing. "Unfortunately, our troops hasn't arrived yet" should be haven't. And, "the Emperor has already launch multiple attacks" should be launched. Realistically speaking, concentrated attacks, what it means to be fighting against House Atreides, umm... I also notice the commander comments that it's unfortunate the smugglers have stepped in and decided to ship troops to Arrakis for the Great Houses. Did he mean to think, "fortunately"?

 - I know the contract forbids the use of a Construction Yard, but I see there's room for some extra triggers in here. How about instead of ending the mission in failure on summoning an MCV, the player gets a warning in case they forgot or something? Like, MCV out, Atreides commander is like "Don't deploy that MCV! Your contract forbids it." or something. :P I dunno, just a random idea. Nothing important.

 - I think this map broke somehow. The Atreides weren't helpful at all. And, there are still a lot of problems with precision that make the map frustrating. Details:
 -- There is zero infantry rock in any convenient location. The cliff edges aren't really sufficient. Holding off Imperial forces is all well and good, but without infantry rock and no ConYard, there's no way to replace turrets and therefore nowhere to defend from after the turrets go down. I strongly suggest placing some infantry rock in the middle of the Spice field south of the northwest base or in front of the turrets there, not off to the side in a bunch of random places. With some rocks, there are at least defensible locations even if the turrets go down.
 -- The Starport is a support structure. It isn't a reliable source of units. While there may be enough Refineries to support defending the bases, there may not be enough Missile Tanks or Siege Tanks to put behind the turrets. That is the most viable defense option given that there is no infantry rock to use, and it isn't very viable at all.
 -- The Saboteurs seem more viable than they were before, but it's hardly useful taking out a couple of structures at a time and they still require precision to use. That isn't so bad when you get reinforcements with more of them constantly but you are sending tons of Imperial forces towards the player and directing Saboteurs past units that may or may not uncloak them while swarming the Siege Tanks on the left side of the map with Quads is not exactly practical. I took out the Imperials' ConYard at the northeast base on my first attack and it still took forever to raze the base because there are Imperial Siege Tanks and turrets all around the base. This would be less of a problem if I didn't lose so many light vehicles keeping the turrets alive at the northwest merc base and could repurpose more survivors for attacks on the right side of the map. Instead, I need to sit in my base twiddling my thumbs with hundreds of infantry waiting to go, but no light vehicles to cover them. They'd get slaughtered by the Siege Tanks.
 --- I would rather receive more Combat Tanks or some other sort of armor. They would be ideal for leading attacks or eating fire for the turrets. Deliveries of those every now and then would certainly help to make up for how unreliable the Starport is.
 -- Escorting the only engineer you get, an incredibly fragile unit, up to a defended corner of the map is nuts. It's easy to forget you even have one and with all the stuff going on on this map, it's hard to remember. You don't need to reduce the amount of units the enemy has or what buildings they have in their base to make the map easier; just reduce the complexity of the objectives. Have a new AI up in the top right corner that, when its units are destroyed, will trigger an engineer flying in. Easy fix! Instead of Saboteurs, a few Combat Tanks every now and then. And maybe give the Atreides and Smugglers some helpful defense zones.
 --- The issue with lack of armor when you have such fortified enemy bases to conquer would be easily rectified by making the Atreides Heavy Factory simpler to capture.
 -- Finally, I could go for a few less Siege Tanks scattered around the enemy base At least the one in the northeast. Spread turrets out, spread stationary defenders out, they're all concentrated in these locations and it makes it incredibly difficult to pierce defenses when you: 1) Get crap RNG on the Starport, so no armor, 2) Are half not paying attention because there are Devastators on the left side of the map, 3) Lose your cover vehicles really quickly because all you have are light vehicles and all the turrets are bunched up on each-other, and 4) infantry are unreliable for eating damage as well because there are Siege Tanks all over the place.

 - I'd like to see more attacks on the right side of the map. There were many on the left and then almost none on the right. I would not recommend adding reinforcements on the right, but rather making them send units out more often. All they did was defend and that made it even harder to make any progress.

 - I think you should drop the timer again. 40 minutes at most feels like it'd be good. You start with a base, there's nothing to do but build units, defend and attack, so doing that for 50 is a bit of a stretch... especially on level 4!!

Still an intense map, but I think it could be made more fun given the above suggestions.

M5V1:

Spoiler

Would you like me to continue writing up the briefings with proper grammar like I did for 1-4? I could keep doing that :P

Also, yay, new map! Time for some new materials. Let's see how this goes.

 - The beginning of this map is awesome. Feels pretty cinematic! Nicely done.

 - Unfortunately, it's a little hard to know where to go, so if you could put in a little trail of reveal-map triggers to the enemy bases, or provide some directions (north, west, east) so we know which general direction to go, that'd be great. This wasn't an issue since I just picked east and went there, but hey, someone else might have more trouble.

 - Gameplay's great. Enough time to start, enough enemies to fight after you get situated, Sonic Tank attacks are cool. The other two Imperial bases that I could have captured at the start (I saw the reveal-map triggers after I got my Outpost up, so I knew which ones they were) went down easily enough, but not too easily since I was still being attacked in the middle of it. The worms didn't give me much trouble, the final enemy bases went down just fine without being too easy...

 - I must also say that it was a pleasant surprise to see enemy defenses spread throughout their base rather than all concentrated in a few spots. That made piercing the base defenses quicker and tearing through the base itself more challenging.

 - It was another pleasant surprise to see that Jim's reinforcements were not infinite. There were enough of them to get the ball rolling, so to speak, but not too much that he'd end up finishing the map for me. :)

 - One criticism I have is that there were a LOT of Sonic Tanks at the Guild base. Luckily I decided to take them on last since I was having a ball rolling through all the Imperial bases, but I can tell you I had a shitload of tanks and they obliterated them all. I think this can be fixed if they dedicated more Sonic Tanks to attacking and maybe built some other units as well, even if just a few. If I had gone to their base first, or if I weren't playing so well, my progress would be stunted and then I'd be stuck building up a bunch more before I could take out the last target on the map.

 - I do have one other complaint. The map feels a tad empty. Don't get me wrong, I love how open it is, I can mass tons of tanks all over and not run into pathing BS. It's just, there could be more rocks around. That includes infantry rock. I know how it feels to design a massive map, it can be hard to imagine the scale of it and how to lay it out. I mean, that's how S6V2 ended up with that massive plateau in its first draft. My best advice for this is to design it piece by piece - you'll have larger empty rock islands in the middle of the map and maybe smaller enemy bases. You can always expand rock islands if you think there should be more there. I'm sure you know this, like, your other maps have pretty good terrain. This one could use some more love.

 - There are also some terrain aesthetics errors. One of the cliff walls was noticeably clipped.

The map was completed on normal mode in under 30 minutes. And all of it was fun! Well done. By the way, I'm playing through on Normal again. I assume that's the difficulty level you designed around.

M6V1:

Spoiler

Man, the Ordos are a load of jerks. I really want to establish that some more when I do my own campaign for them. One of the ideas I had for them that showed up in the smugglers campaign is Moriaen urges Summers to stay out of a fight to spare her soldiers needless deaths. This is unlike the Ordos to care, and indeed, they don't - Summers cares about those under her, so by playing that angle, they seem more sympathetic and push conflict onto Summers that may either keep her out of the fight or, ideally, put her on their side when the Harkonnen inevitably turn on her.

Pardon me, I'm rambling. Let's get on with this map.

 - Another stealth map! Less lively than the other one. Only Harvesters rolling around. Could use some more life, just light vehicles or something will do.

 - More terrain aesthetic errors in a few places, if you wanted to know.

 - Not too hard at all, finished it in a couple of tries. I don't really mind saving and reloading on a map like this. Enough Fedaykin to get the job done. Nothing much more to say, unless you had a specific question for me.

M7V1:

Spoiler

Okay, no.

I will take everything you sent at me on this map - everything - the late start in enemy territory, only two engineers for starts, oodles of enemy forces, an expansion to the south, dense enemy defenses, huge unit variety - if you never ever do that repeated reinforcements in the rear thing again. Seriously, there were like ten tiles back there when we had the rest of the map to contend with, they didn't seem to ever stop, a bunch of Wind Traps are back there, and I have nothing more to say about that than I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Don't do that. Ever again.

As for the rest of the map... interesting. Lots of good fights going on. Seems overtuned though. I could go for a few more starting units and a few less defenses at that enemy base we need to capture, but other than that I got off to a fine start. I'd be happier about it if I didn't hate those repeated reinforcements so much. I mean, hell, not even my S9V2 is that cruel. There's a small Imperial base that occasionally sends things to your backdoor, but a couple of turrets will do and it's not hard to take out that base in the back.

Turrets or some more infantry rock would be absolutely fantastic because Ordos tanks are fragile and they send a lot of shit at you. Sonic Tanks and Devastators, and no turrets. The infantry rock in the middle of the map is fine, I guess, but there could be more locations with infantry rock because there are fights going on all over this huge map. Maybe move the Imperial base up north closer to the Ordos base so I don't have to send my tanks halfway across the map to defend them while they're getting their sorry asses kicked. And why no expansion? I wanna build an MCV and move it out somewhere without needing to capture enemy structures with engineers. Ree!

They were slightly more helpful than the Atreides on M4V1. Not very much more so. IMO: See if you can get more Ordos units out and less Imperial / Spacing Guild units, have the Imperials and Spacing Guild use a lower build rate at the start of the map. It could increase to a higher rate, like, 5 or 10 minutes in, but the start being the way it is, it doesn't help map tuning.

Another thing that would really help this map feel more like M5V1 - which was a fantastic map, by the way - is reducing Imperial base density. Their bases are majorly packed with structures. The northwestern and southwestern ones are the ones I'm referring to. And, like I said under M5V1's spoiler, seeing defenses in the middle of the bases rather than all condensed around the edges was a great thing to see, and that simply doesn't happen on this map. Add Sonic Tanks and Siege Tanks on guard mode by the outer turrets and there's no way in hell anyone's getting into that base before a million years later.

For the record, I had no trouble defending my bases or keeping a stable economy - although the reinforcements down by the Wind Traps were a serious peeve. I take more issue with the fact that the enemy perimeter was waaay too tough to crack. It didn't help that the Ordos only managed to take out the southwestern expansion, with my aid. And, it didn't help that I needed to keep sending Combat Tanks to every corner of the map to deal with this or that, and then it was all too easy to lose my secondary group on defense because my primary group wasn't available to flank all those Sonic Tanks they keep sending. The thing that was great about the Sonic Tanks on S5V1 is that the various units showed up at different times and from different sources - those Sonic Tanks all came from the Spacing Guild, all the normal units came from the Imperials, and I had to choose targets and prioritize between them. Here, it's every unit on every team and the player is faced with too much variety at one time. You know?

I think if you expand the terrain some more, reduce Imperial base density, consider allowing expansion / turrets (and add expansion points if you do), add dynamic build rates, adjust enemy unit composition, make the start at least a little easier, give the Ordos some attack priorities, scatter defenses some more, and for the love of God, remove those reinforcements in the rear, this map will be a lot better. You can give Side 5 a third MCV for all I care, just pleeease don't have those reinforcements drop by the Wind Traps like that!!

That should be everything. Hope that helps, man! I look forward to new updates and new missions. :)

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Spoiler
4 hours ago, Fey said:

Lost a Wind Trap to those initial Sardaukar again. I wouldn't mind so much if it didn't take my power down. I get the "Smugglers! This Spice belongs to the Emperor!" talk at the same time the Sardaukar start attacking my Wind Trap, so... add another Wind Trap or give a little more warning for that one, I think. Or, remove those four Silos out by the Barracks. I just sold them.

I calculated that the player would lost that wind trap, so it's ok if you can't keep it.

Those silos are for immersion, as that base is supposed to be a spice-mining base.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

I could do without a second Harvester on this map. One was fine. I stopped one Harvester at one point because I kept getting "Silos needed." spammed at me and I had no way to spend the Solaris!

Same reason as above.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

- Jim tells you to take an MCV, but two Siege Tanks arrive. I think this is an error left over from the last version of the map, right?

You got that right. Is fixed in dev version.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

I don't know what you fed the worm on this map to make it such a jerk, but it kept coming under my infantry and forcing me to relocate if I wanted those Sardaukar to die without losing all my infantry to BS. Is that just bad RNG or did you put a couple of worms on this map?

Lol. In my game, it helps me by eating Imperial vehicles.

 

4 hours ago, Fey said:

The eastern turret is useless. The first attack that came from that direction wiped out my Barracks and I had to do the rest of the mission without it. Which was successful, it's just... shouldn't that turret be on the eastern wall, not northwest of the Barracks?

The eastern of that base, in the lore, is supposed to be safe, until Imperial troops start dropping in.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

Looking at the map conditions, I see that you have a win condition dependent on the merc base being intact as well as the smuggler Starport. However, the mission does not fail if you have no structures left. This could result in the mission being lost when it should have been won. Also, wow, only one worm... so that was bad RNG.

Weird, I do remember having that condition. Maybe I accidentally delete it? I'll check.

 

M2:

 

Spoiler
4 hours ago, Fey said:

Sometimes an AI will fly their Harvesters somewhere safe if they're under attack, even if they don't have a Refinery, in which case this will not work and it will become impossible to destroy the Harvesters they fly to safety.

Never happen in my test run. Because they will be brought back at some point unless the Atreides destroyed refineries. In that case, you're as good as won.

I'll see what I can do about it, while keeping the theme and making sense. For the record, I do read your suggestions.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

Just thought you should know, the Atreides still had most of their base by the time I got them reinforcements for the first time. And, they tore through the Imperial base more quickly. It'd be nice if I could keep getting them reinforcements and the map finishes faster past that point, so... hopefully the above suggestions help you out with that!

I have increased the reinforcement Atreides get when you destroy those harvesters in my dev build.

Other stuff: I'll fix them.

 

M3V1:

 

Spoiler
4 hours ago, Fey said:

Doesn't seem like much has changed. I don't really mind, fun map albeit short. :P

If dune map can be bigger than 128x128. I'd make a more complicated one.

Other stuff: I'll fix.

 

M4:

 

Spoiler
4 hours ago, Fey said:

I know the contract forbids the use of a Construction Yard, but I see there's room for some extra triggers in here. How about instead of ending the mission in failure on summoning an MCV, the player gets a warning in case they forgot or something? Like, MCV out, Atreides commander is like "Don't deploy that MCV! Your contract forbids it." or something. :P I dunno, just a random idea. Nothing important.

Now owning MCV no longer triggers defeat condition in dev build.

 

4 hours ago, Fey said:

I think this map broke somehow. The Atreides weren't helpful at all. And, there are still a lot of problems with precision that make the map frustrating.

A bunch of feedback.

That's the main problem. Atreides is supposed to be helpful. The map is easier with their help. I'm not sure why but they're great in test run. Probably weird behavior again.

You don't actually need to escort him. You can just move him to the factory, if he stay near the edge of the map.

 

4 hours ago, Fey said:

I'd like to see more attacks on the right side of the map. There were many on the left and then almost none on the right. I would not recommend adding reinforcements on the right, but rather making them send units out more often. All they did was defend and that made it even harder to make any progress.

I actually made them attack slower but with more units. Would you prefer smaller but quicker attack?

 

4 hours ago, Fey said:

I think you should drop the timer again. 40 minutes at most feels like it'd be good. You start with a base, there's nothing to do but build units, defend and attack, so doing that for 50 is a bit of a stretch... especially on level 4!!

The intent is you can go attack freely at 30 minutes. And the Atreides win you the map later on. As you can see, that wasn't what happened.

 

M5:

 

Spoiler
4 hours ago, Fey said:

Would you like me to continue writing up the briefings with proper grammar like I did for 1-4? I could keep doing that

If you have to ask, mine is probably not up to standard. Please do!

4 hours ago, Fey said:

One criticism I have is that there were a LOT of Sonic Tanks at the Guild base. Luckily I decided to take them on last since I was having a ball rolling through all the Imperial bases, but I can tell you I had a shitload of tanks and they obliterated them all. I think this can be fixed if they dedicated more Sonic Tanks to attacking and maybe built some other units as well, even if just a few. If I had gone to their base first, or if I weren't playing so well, my progress would be stunted and then I'd be stuck building up a bunch more before I could take out the last target on the map.

The intended strat is bait and switch, which works really well, because of how slow those sonic tanks are. I don't know how many you had, but if I think you split your attacking force into 3, it should be game.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

I do have one other complaint. The map feels a tad empty. Don't get me wrong,

I'll see what I can do. It's supposed to be a spice field, though.

BTW, if you could, try other starting location and see if there is any jump in difficulty.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

There are also some terrain aesthetics errors. One of the cliff walls was noticeably clipped.

Another needle in the haystack. Sigh.

 

M6:

 

Spoiler
4 hours ago, Fey said:

Another stealth map! Less lively than the other one. Only Harvesters rolling around. Could use some more life, just light vehicles or something will do.

Do you like random unit moving around like Mission 3? They can really screw up your coordination, if I dare to add that. So unlikely.

 

4 hours ago, Fey said:

More terrain aesthetic errors in a few places, if you wanted to know.

Another needle...

 

4 hours ago, Fey said:

Nothing much more to say, unless you had a specific question for me. 

For mission such as this, I want to know whether the player confuses on what to do, or script triggers incorrectly.

 

M7:

 

Spoiler
4 hours ago, Fey said:

if you never ever do that repeated reinforcements in the rear thing again. Seriously, there were like ten tiles back there when we had the rest of the map to contend with, they didn't seem to ever stop, a bunch of Wind Traps are back there, and I have nothing more to say about that than I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Don't do that. Ever again.

I make it very small, so even if you get surprised, you will be fine. However, the psychological effects was greater than I thought.

You're right, I admit. I'll do something about it.

 

5 hours ago, Fey said:

Turrets or some more infantry rock would be absolutely fantastic because Ordos tanks are fragile and they send a lot of shit at you.

I'm pretty sure I create a lot of no crush zone everywhere. Do you think it is not enough?

 

5 hours ago, Fey said:

And why no expansion? I wanna build an MCV and move it out somewhere without needing to capture enemy structures with engineers. Ree!

Lorewise, the Ordos doesn't trust you, especially when you're so close to their base. I balance the map around that.

 

5 hours ago, Fey said:

They were slightly more helpful than the Atreides on M4V1. Not very much more so. IMO: See if you can get more Ordos units out and less Imperial / Spacing Guild units, have the Imperials and Spacing Guild use a lower build rate at the start of the map. It could increase to a higher rate, like, 5 or 10 minutes in, but the start being the way it is, it doesn't help map tuning.

I replayed the map, and I found the big problem. They shouldn't go toe-to-toe against the southwest Imperial base so early in the map. In fact, how this map should work is similar to "the plan" at the start of the game.

I probably will force diplomancy to the Ordos.

 

5 hours ago, Fey said:

Another thing that would really help this map feel more like M5V1 - which was a fantastic map, by the way - is reducing Imperial base density. Their bases are majorly packed with structures. The northwestern and southwestern ones are the ones I'm referring to. And, like I said under M5V1's spoiler, seeing defenses in the middle of the bases rather than all condensed around the edges was a great thing to see, and that simply doesn't happen on this map. Add Sonic Tanks and Siege Tanks on guard mode by the outer turrets and there's no way in hell anyone's getting into that base before a million years later.

The spread out defense was my experiment, and I'm glad you like it. I will redesign the entire base. Not only this mission, but every mission before and after.

 

5 hours ago, Fey said:

It didn't help that the Ordos only managed to take out the southwestern expansion, with my aid. And, it didn't help that I needed to keep sending Combat Tanks to every corner of the map to deal with this or that, and then it was all too easy to lose my secondary group on defense because my primary group wasn't available to flank all those Sonic Tanks they keep sending. The thing that was great about the Sonic Tanks on S5V1 is that the various units showed up at different times and from different sources - those Sonic Tanks all came from the Spacing Guild, all the normal units came from the Imperials, and I had to choose targets and prioritize between them. Here, it's every unit on every team and the player is faced with too much variety at one time. You know?

If everything go according to "the plan", the Ordos will take out the Guild relatively early. So, yes, that's why this map is harder than it should.

 

5 hours ago, Fey said:

Man, the Ordos are a load of jerks.

The Ordos saga hasn't ended yet in my campaign. I believe they're way worse than the Harkonnen, and I'll expose that more in my later campaign.

 

Thanks a lot, Fey. You set up a new standard of feedback! I like how extremely detailed it is.

 

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4 hours ago, Runtowin said:
  Reveal hidden contents

I calculated that the player would lost that wind trap, so it's ok if you can't keep it.

Those silos are for immersion, as that base is supposed to be a spice-mining base.

Same reason as above.

You got that right. Is fixed in dev version.

Lol. In my game, it helps me by eating Imperial vehicles.

 

The eastern of that base, in the lore, is supposed to be safe, until Imperial troops start dropping in.

Weird, I do remember having that condition. Maybe I accidentally delete it? I'll check.

M2:

  Reveal hidden contents

Never happen in my test run. Because they will be brought back at some point unless the Atreides destroyed refineries. In that case, you're as good as won.

I'll see what I can do about it, while keeping the theme and making sense. For the record, I do read your suggestions.

I have increased the reinforcement Atreides get when you destroy those harvesters in my dev build.

Other stuff: I'll fix them.

M3V1:

  Reveal hidden contents

If dune map can be bigger than 128x128. I'd make a more complicated one.

Other stuff: I'll fix.

M4:

  Reveal hidden contents

Now owning MCV no longer triggers defeat condition in dev build.

 

That's the main problem. Atreides is supposed to be helpful. The map is easier with their help. I'm not sure why but they're great in test run. Probably weird behavior again.

You don't actually need to escort him. You can just move him to the factory, if he stay near the edge of the map.

 

I actually made them attack slower but with more units. Would you prefer smaller but quicker attack?

 

The intent is you can go attack freely at 30 minutes. And the Atreides win you the map later on. As you can see, that wasn't what happened.

M5:

  Reveal hidden contents

If you have to ask, mine is probably not up to standard. Please do!

The intended strat is bait and switch, which works really well, because of how slow those sonic tanks are. I don't know how many you had, but if I think you split your attacking force into 3, it should be game.

I'll see what I can do. It's supposed to be a spice field, though.

BTW, if you could, try other starting location and see if there is any jump in difficulty.

Another needle in the haystack. Sigh.

M6:

  Reveal hidden contents

Do you like random unit moving around like Mission 3? They can really screw up your coordination, if I dare to add that. So unlikely.

 

Another needle...

 

For mission such as this, I want to know whether the player confuses on what to do, or script triggers incorrectly.

M7:

  Reveal hidden contents

I make it very small, so even if you get surprised, you will be fine. However, the psychological effects was greater than I thought.

You're right, I admit. I'll do something about it.

 

I'm pretty sure I create a lot of no crush zone everywhere. Do you think it is not enough?

 

Lorewise, the Ordos doesn't trust you, especially when you're so close to their base. I balance the map around that.

 

I replayed the map, and I found the big problem. They shouldn't go toe-to-toe against the southwest Imperial base so early in the map. In fact, how this map should work is similar to "the plan" at the start of the game.

I probably will force diplomancy to the Ordos.

 

The spread out defense was my experiment, and I'm glad you like it. I will redesign the entire base. Not only this mission, but every mission before and after.

 

If everything go according to "the plan", the Ordos will take out the Guild relatively early. So, yes, that's why this map is harder than it should.

The Ordos saga hasn't ended yet in my campaign. I believe they're way worse than the Harkonnen, and I'll expose that more in my later campaign.

Thanks a lot, Fey. You set up a new standard of feedback! I like how extremely detailed it is.

M1:

Spoiler

Oh, okay. Yeah, that works with the Wind Trap and Silos, and it does make the map more interesting. I still think the second Harvester makes the map too easy! Or, at least makes it feel like you'll never run out of Solaris.

Ah, okay. I see Cm already commented on it so I was like "oh."

Nothing is safe in the heat of battle! The Imperials are well known to be crafty and well-equipped to pull some BS, and the eastern edge of that base segment extends towards open sand So, I don't know if there's a path there. Where the turret is now, it looks like it just guards towards a cliff. I see there's infantry rock there, but it seems secondary to open sand.

M2:

Spoiler

Oh, I wasn't referring to the current state of the map with that comment. I mean, if you do follow my suggestion with making the Harvesters belong to a different AI, you would need them to belong to the side 1 AI or something since they would go north if pulled to safety. If they belonged to a side without a Refinery and got ferried south, everything would break is what I'm saying.

The reason for changing the side of the Harvester reinforcements that arrive after you take out the first ones is just to make the end of the map go by quicker since they won't be bringing those Harvesters back and forth. Scattering some infantry rock around and reducing the amount of side 3 Harvesters for each reinforcement might also do the trick, aside from my other suggestions.

M3:

Spoiler

You could make smaller maps for the beginning of your campaign and then build up to something larger. M6 felt bigger because there was more to do, too.

M4:

Spoiler

Oh, yay. :D

Still feels pretty escortey on account of the Imperial units being on attack. Even if I do know where the Heavy Factory is, if I move my Engineer up to, say, the border of that Spice field south of the northeastern Imperial base and then they attack on the left side of the map, I can go over there and deal with that, and then I come back and a hail of Trikes and Quads has taken out my escort and the Engineer. Engineers are very delicate units, it's a good thing to have a backup plan when it comes to them but we only get one on this map.

Unfortunately, we can't train any more Engineers until we get a Heavy Factory. So, the Engineer becomes kind of useless since I got that Heavy Factory after taking out nearly the entirety of the base up northeast. And those Combat Tanks would have been really helpful. That's why if the area could just be cleared out with light vehicles or something and then an Engineer is dropped in, it'd reduce map complexity and be a lot fairer in the process.

Aye, I think that'd be best. A strong, slow attack on the left, and a weak, rapid attack on the right.

Oh, I was attacking quite freely by like ten or fifteen minutes in, but... tough exterior for light vehicles to handle alone. I sincerely believe scattering infantry rock around would work wonders in helping keep the turrets and light vehicles operational, but the other suggestions aside from infantry rock are also advisable.

M5:

Spoiler

Sure thing! Lemme write them up for S5-S7 here:
Atreides Mentat: Without that supply depot, the Emperor will have a hard time in our territories. Thank you. We have transferred the payment to your account. Good luck Commander.

Subordinate: Commander, we have a transmission coming from House Ordos.

You: (House Ordos... a mercantile house. They are willing to do everything for profit, illegal or not. Efficiency is their most important factor towards that goal, and harsh punishment awaits those who go against that principle. That's the reason why my mates once told me that dealing with House Ordos is a double-edged sword. You either get rich, or die trying.)

You: Receive it.

Subordinate: Yes sir!

Ordos Mentat: We have analyzed your battle. You outperformed our prediction by 50%. That is unusual. We request your service.

You: I'd prefer some details before we proceed.

Ordos Mentat: I'm the mentat of House Ordos. I'll brief your contract. This area was once our Spice field. Spice is invaluable for us, but the Spacing Guild and the Emperor are harvesting them now. That is the problem. Take it back. That is your mission. Do you accept it or not? Here, we show you our proposed payment...

You: (That's a lot!) I accept. However, there is a Sonic Tank production facility here. We are not equipped to deal with this tank.

Ordos Mentat: We know. We will send our troops to destroy it ourselves. Remove all buildings in the area. That is the directive. The most efficient way is capturing one of Imperial bases. Their commanders are weak, take advantage of that. That is advice.

Objective: Raze all hostile buildings.

Intels:
- Always be prepared for Sonic Tank attacks.
- Try to destroy their bases as fast as possible. They can snowball you quickly.


I assume you meant any one of the three Imperial bases that look viable to capture. In that case, would their singular commander be weak, or plural? If singular, Their commander is weak, but keep bases, as there are plenty of those. :P

There were, like... I'm gonna say like 30-40 Sonic Tanks at the Guild base when I went to blow it up. Just lines and lines of sound-blasting siege weapons tearing through everything. I managed to brute force it but woooow there were so many. It's a very good thing I'd set up in the northeastern Imperial base after taking it since I could just reinforce the attack very easily.

Well, yeah, but I had a huge Spice field on S9V2 and that needed to get fixed! It looks a lot prettier with some breaks in the field, no? 😮

Sure. I'll try that right now, actually:

Spoiler

Wow, I had a lucky draw. Going southwest had me run out of units. Not too early, just, there were turrets all over and it was hard to find them all before they had so many units. I wound up only with the Engineer capturing that ConYard. Maybe I'm simply tired; I just had a nap.

Here're some ideas: You could either reduce the amount of turrets, put reveal map triggers on all the turrets when the ConYard at any given base is discovered (before the player has a base, himself), and/or make it so that only the turrets around the ConYard need to be destroyed. That should be easy enough to do if you make it only one sort of turret, like those rocket turrets or something, but it would make the start of the map shorter, so I think the first two suggestions are more reasonable than the third.

Some more dialogue couldn't hurt either. I figured I needed to clear defenses out, but someone else might get to a base like "wait but I don't have any engineers, glitch?" or something. If you do the reveal-maps on ConYard reveal, the commander could say, "Clear out the defenses!" or something and then all those turrets are shown on the map. Eh?

Heh, sorry. XD Take it one thing at a time! Considering everything you need to do or fix at once will weigh a man down.

M6:

Spoiler

Ordos Mentat: Despite it being unexpected, you have completed your part. You've made a lot of profit for the Ordos. Therefore, we've decided to double your payment for this mission. However, only if you accept your next contract.

You: Screw you! We almost died out there.

Ordos: Our simulation showed otherwise, and your existence here is evidence. We'll be waiting.

You: *forcefully turn off transmission*

Subordinate: Commander, a Fremen Warrior would like to meet you!

Fremen: Greeting commander. Our kin with the Atreides said you fought like real men; they recommended you for our problem.

Fremen Leader: I'm the leader of a Sietch nearby. The Imperial forces has been testing their own improvement of Death Hand Missiles close to our Sietch. They makes Shai-Hulud angry, our women and children unable to sleep. This needs to be stopped! Show me your worth.

You: (It's always beneficial to have a favor with Fremen. Might come useful later.) We will do what we can.

Fremen Leader: Our warriors are hidden in an abandoned Ordos Outpost, observing the situation. They're eager to fight. Use them however you like, but if you waste their lives, you know the drill.

You: (Let's scout the area first, then meet up with the Fremen later. There is a hidden Carryall at the Ordos Starport that could be used for our escape.)

Objective: Find 4 Construction Yards, the Missile Silo, and the Research Centre. Then, make contact with Fremen and proceed to destroy those structures. Your Stealth Raider, the Ordos Outpost, and the Ordos Starport must survive.

Intels:
- The enemy will flock in after you destroy one of the buildings. Try to destroy them all at once.
- Be patient, save often.
- Be careful of the Death Hand Missile. Stay out of its range.
- Infantry and turrets can detect you at close range.

(Things in parentheses are thoughts, right?) In that case, although usually (punctuation comes after parentheses), I'm preeetty sure it should "function like quotations and have punctuation beforehand." Also, maybe it's just me, but "you know the drill" sounds funny coming from a Fremen Naib. Couldn't he say something like, uhh... you'll pay in water!! or something? :P

For the record, even though the random units moving around on M3 can get in the way, I do enjoy them. The remedy for that is simply making the path more than one tile as much as possible.

Sorry XD You get used to spotting them eventually. I vaguely recall seeing one on the south side of the map, if that's any help.

Oh, no, nothing appeared scripted incorrectly at all. It all worked. Not confusing at all. :P

M7:

Spoiler

Ordos Mentat: I see you have come back. We knew you would come. We have made preparations beforehand. This strategic location was once our headquarters, where we deployed our first base on Arrakis. You will take our previous base, for which we have already deactivated all traps. Our commander will build a new one.  Your mission is assist our commander in his mission to reclaim what was ours. That is the directive.

Ordos Mentat: As promised, we have transferred double the payment of your last mission. Our rule dictates that this mission must be completed by any means necessary. Your failure is unacceptable. You and our commander will meet the same fate as the ones before you.

*A video is played showing what looks like living heads on electrical towers. One is supposed to be the previous Ordos Commander. He is kept alive to serve as an example.*

Ordos Mentat: One of them was the leader of another mercenary group who betrayed us. That is a threat.

Objective: Eliminate all buildings of opposite forces. The Ordos must survive.

Intel:
- Capture CY & Starport as soon as possible. They're vital to your success.
- MCV, and deploying your own CY is not allowed.
- Destroy enemy's Starport to halt their reinforcement.
- Watch your flank.
- The enemy goes heavy on vehicles. Building anti-tank units is necessary.
- It would be wise to use Deviators on enemy defensive tanks.


Those silly Ordos with their severed heads.

Oh, it's small, but there's a lot to it. I mean, I'm pumping out infantry and Combat Tanks at the north base I captured because that's where most of the attacks are at, but then halfway down the map my Wind Traps are being taken out by a Sonic Tank. Now, if I send a ton of light vehicles from one direction directly into a Sonic Tank on hunt mode... what happens? x_x

If it were a group of Sardaukar and light vehicles, or even Combat Tanks, that'd be... much better, although I still don't like those reinforcements. On a map like M1 it was a-okay to be surrounded like that, but this mission? Pleeeease don't! We're already surrounded on several sides so it's okay to leave that one side out. :(

Well, there is a no-crush zone in-between the starting position and the Imperial base you need to capture, but that goes to no use because that base is captured right away. There's another no-crush zone in the middle of the map, but that's south of the northwestern Imperial base and north of the western Spacing Guild base, so enemy units may bypass it really easily. That isn't that big an issue since you can kite units there, but it is pretty inconvenient when there's no more stable location to fall back to. There are little tank-stoppers dotted around the northeastern Imperial base facing our base, that'd be great if there were attacks from that direction, but there are no tank-stoppers facing towards the western bases. Nor infantry rock! So, same issue as M4, needs more defensible locations.

Oh, yeah. Still, umm... you could capture and defend up north, then build with the Ordos using that ConYard, hypothetically. I'd be cool with not even having a Heavy Factory for starts if I could expand with MCVs later on, and if taking the northeast base were made easier to account for the lack of a Heavy Factory. Or, if you could put even some small expansions around with, like, a Repair Pad or something, that'd be great. Proxy buildings, staging areas, they help on a crazy big map.

To make the Ordos prioritize the Spacing Guild, there are entries for AttackBuildingPriority. Simply change the Ordos' attack priorities to focus on Atreides structures and reduce the likelihood of them attacking Imperial or Harkonnen structures. Practice AIs usually have Construction Yards set at 100 priority and Wind Traps at 50.

I am so glad to hear that. I've actually adopted a similar policy on several smuggler campaign maps - S4V1, S6V2, S9V1 / V2, those all have more spread-out base defenses in the latest update aside from the checkpoints in front of each base. I'd love to know if you enjoy that better than, say, S6V1 which has combinations of Medium Gun Turrets and Large Gun Turrets at the front of each base only. So, it's certainly something I've judged about my own maps as well.

Ohhh. Wow, that explains a lot lol. Once the Spacing Guild is taken out, could the Imperials stop getting Devastators and Sonic Tanks as reinforcements? That'd be cool. Also, I'd love to have the plan outlined at least briefly in the briefing. Heck, even just a "we plan to take out the Spacing Guild first, pls do that because it's best strategy" would probably clear up a lot of confusion!

 

5 hours ago, Runtowin said:

The Ordos saga hasn't ended yet in my campaign. I believe they're way worse than the Harkonnen, and I'll expose that more in my later campaign.

Thanks a lot, Fey. You set up a new standard of feedback! I like how extremely detailed it is.

That'll be fun. They are manipulative, deceitful, treacherous... maybe Westwood put it best when they said insidious. The Harkonnen may seem more evil outright, but the Ordos' insidious tactics are probably the most haunting.

No problem! Sorry about the really harsh criticism on M7, but I reeeeally didn't like those reinforcements in the rear. XD

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