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Fey

[Release] Smugglers Campaign

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Cm_blast    74
3 hours ago, Fey said:

Don't worry, I'm not updating again. As far as I know of. :D

*Starts to get worried*

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Yeah. They have 10250 Solaris, the first 1250 of which is meant to go towards the upgrade, but they only had a tech level of 1 and never got it

I would like to test the min base /max base lines (or a name like that). Would be interesting having an Ai to build 10 trikes defending his base but, until another player don't kill a few of those units, they don't build more.

Or simply having X units defending, starts building 20 units to attack (from infantry to tanks) but then stopping, so only when the proper time has arrive, the AI attack with those 20 units.

Let's say, like having an ally that builds very fast (so he will always had units near the factory entrances just in case an enemy attack), but not amassing too many units until the time to attack arrive or not attacking too many times because low intervals of attacks.

The original campaigns has some values here and there; I tried in the past, but no so much. I'll try to do something more when I feel better and safe.

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Fey    4
6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

*Starts to get worried*

I would like to test the min base /max base lines (or a name like that). Would be interesting having an Ai to build 10 trikes defending his base but, until another player don't kill a few of those units, they don't build more.

Or simply having X units defending, starts building 20 units to attack (from infantry to tanks) but then stopping, so only when the proper time has arrive, the AI attack with those 20 units.

Let's say, like having an ally that builds very fast (so he will always had units near the factory entrances just in case an enemy attack), but not amassing too many units until the time to attack arrive or not attacking too many times because low intervals of attacks.

The original campaigns has some values here and there; I tried in the past, but no so much. I'll try to do something more when I feel better and safe.

That'd be cool. I hope your computer gets all fixed up ASAP!

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Cm_blast    74
12 hours ago, Fey said:

That'd be cool. I hope your computer gets all fixed up ASAP!

Probably doing that it's impossible, but I still want to do the test with the unknown byte.

Well, with the new hard drive is going fine, at least for know, but I am still too paranoic.

Anyway; I can't recover most the stuff, I even forgot one savegame for a game :(.
I am already getting gruntmods, and fortunatelly I did a copy of the whole mission folder, so I think I have everything, maybe except the final fix you talk about the last two post or so.

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Fey    4
4 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Probably doing that it's impossible, but I still want to do the test with the unknown byte.

Well, with the new hard drive is going fine, at least for know, but I am still too paranoic.

Anyway; I can't recover most the stuff, I even forgot one savegame for a game :(.
I am already getting gruntmods, and fortunatelly I did a copy of the whole mission folder, so I think I have everything, maybe except the final fix you talk about the last two post or so.

>.> I noticed a grammatical error in the briefing of S1V1. A couple of unit names, two instances of the word "Silo," are meant to be capitalized.

I won't update just for that though. :D

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Cm_blast    74
5 hours ago, Fey said:

>.> I noticed a grammatical error in the briefing of S1V1. A couple of unit names, two instances of the word "Silo," are meant to be capitalized.

I won't update just for that though. :D

Do it, I'll not download it until tomorrow :P.

Being serious I'm going to do that. Tomorrow will download the file you got here, and with a bit of luck start playing the remakes from Doma and trying the min-max base; but probably don't do too much since all the AIs that have a number has the same (although is not even present in the Atreides final level but in the other two yes).

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Fey    4
50 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Do it, I'll not download it until tomorrow :P.

Being serious I'm going to do that. Tomorrow will download the file you got here, and with a bit of luck start playing the remakes from Doma and trying the min-max base; but probably don't do too much since all the AIs that have a number has the same (although is not even present in the Atreides final level but in the other two yes).

I plan to review a few more things on the final three levels, so if I find anything more substantial, I'll update it then. If you plan on playing through this ol' campaign again, perhaps you'd consider offering some advice. Do you suppose there might be some other issue you may find?

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Cm_blast    74
2 hours ago, Fey said:

I plan to review a few more things on the final three levels, so if I find anything more substantial, I'll update it then. If you plan on playing through this ol' campaign again, perhaps you'd consider offering some advice. Do you suppose there might be some other issue you may find?

I don't remember anything besides the few things I said early like the limit of spice blooms, making the blooms near the player not re-appearing (mission 9 I think it was), but you probably already changed that.

Firts I want to play the remake one, so you have plenty of time to do updates until I replay yours.

Edit:
The editor works now.

Edited by Cm_blast

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OK, I've got my write up of the first 4 missions ready.

 

Spoiler

S1V1
This was a good first mission for players who already know the game. I liked the use of a separate AI to give the player a nice, pretty base to look at, and give the feeling of a proper set-up, while avoiding derailing the mission premise with too much stuff.


The inclusion of the repair pad was a nice touch, allowing the player to strike out at full strength every time, and avoiding having to give the player too many units. It kept each assault to precision attacks, and encouraged hit-and-run type tactics, which a) fit with the Ordos style units the Smugglers use, and b) fits plot-wise with the underdog Smuggler theme of the campaign.


I did find I had some trouble after taking out the silos in the Eastern base, as I hadn’t noticed the second base tucked away to the North, and proceeded to waste time and units assaulting up the bridge, trying to find what I’d missed. Some of the problem was not being able to review the briefing in-game (obviously, no fault of yours), so I couldn’t make sure I hadn’t missed anything there without minimising the game. As such, I levelled the entire base, just to be sure, and started scouring the map before I found the silo’s in the northern base, much to my relief.
When the message popped up about being halfway, I was distracted by the bridge, leading to more Eastern base, which also contributed to my confusion.
Perhaps a map reveal, or pop-up message hinting to the location of the second base would help?

The briefing was very nicely done, with immersive story, and character development – not usually something I would expect from this kind of mod. To give the player a character to play was an interesting, and cool decision.

All in all, a very good start.

 

S1V2

I was a little surprised to find this one as V2, rather than V1. Much more of a tutorial type mission. I very much approve of the decision to have one first mission for experienced players, and one for beginners, but shouldn’t they be other way around? Hardly a huge issue, but seemed a little odd to me.
The timer surprised me. I wonder if it could panic beginners, who are just getting to grips with the tutorial aspect of this mission. Then again, I may be biased here, as I hate timers I have to beat. You did, however, put plenty of time on the clock, so it’s hardly difficult to beat.
It was a cool turn of events when the Imperial forces showed up, giving the player a practice enabled AI to beat.
Prompts, and messages were all appropriately placed, and well worked into the plot.

 

S2V1

I noticed the briefing flicked from present tense, to past tense, and back again at one point. It’s only brief, but it’s not great for consistency.

The rest of the briefing was, again, very nicely done – interesting, immersive, and still easy to follow as to what you have to do.
The mission started well enough. Nice little base, single turret – came in very useful for a mission of this type – end looked to be well within reach… and then my base building OCD kicked in, and I kept delaying the last funds, buying more and more units I didn’t need – or so I thought – couldn’t leave this unfinished…

1.thumb.png.ed0f0f6814a6953f295e4745d73b3f94.png

Then I let the funds come in. Ahh, message. Sounds serious. Good thing I delayed winning – oh.
After reloading, and delaying the start by even more, I started to get the feeling I wasn’t supposed to survive here…

3.thumb.png.b8b7622e2e09e88d23ff4cbf0a9f691e.png

This was a fraction of my force. I couldn’t move it all at once. Still, it wasn’t enough.
Realising my being overwhelmed was most likely meant to happen, I still wasn’t OK with taking the chance of getting one of those hated ‘mission failed’ messages should I be wrong, so I reloaded…

5.thumb.png.3112fd7101b7ec20b7ba3723558b565b.png

Much better. Glad that was an option.

I couldn’t help but notice you switched a standard Ordos style Starport in for the Smuggler one. Was that because of the build icon? Seems a shame, as I love the aesthetic of the Smuggler Starport.

 

S2V2

Again, there’s the same problem with past and present tense in the briefing – it’s the same part. Have a look:
“ The monitor flickers to life. Though its display is choked by static, you can make out threads of black where Sumadi's hair should be and a mug of Spice coffee in his hairy hand. His collared wrist was steady as he raised the mug, and the static cleared, revealing his dark skin. When he sighed and set the mug down in front of him, his eyes snapped open, staring into the camera. They were an awe-inspiring deep blue that seared color into your sand- and rock-painted mind.”

 

The next paragraph returns to present tense again.

 

Mission premise looks very cool. Definitely feels right for Smugglers. Let’s get salvaging shall we?
The start of this mission looks very cool, though I was weary from the start of having a unit representing me that I couldn’t control. I feel like there’s too much that can wrong there. It certainly did for me. Be it standing around in the middle of a swarm of Sardaukar getting shot when I’m supposed to be running away, turning around and picking a fight with a hoard of trikes, or just getting run over while retreating by faster moving tanks. Every step of the way, this unit is annoying the hell out of me.
Anyways, after sacrificing stupid numbers of units as straight up meat-shields to protect this suicidal representation of me, I got to the Fremen. Some nice dialogue. Definitely getting the feel for this obsessive Imperial commander.
7.thumb.png.85ff40f8c8c707167303f68c5fc01700.png

However, once I overpowered the Imperial base… nothing. Just continued reinforcements, with no clear objective. Not really sure what I’m supposed to do, unless it’s just sit here until I run out of money, and try to survive. It all feels very vague.
I have to be honest, I got frustrated with this mission and quit. I’ve got it saved after taking out the Imperial base, so I may go back at some point, but for now, I think I’m gonna move on.

That's all I've had time to write up so far, but I'll be sure to post more in the near future.  Hoe you found it useful.

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Cm_blast    74
1 hour ago, Domaithianus said:

This was a fraction of my force. I couldn’t move it all at once. Still, it wasn’t enough.
Realising my being overwhelmed was most likely meant to happen, I still wasn’t OK with taking the chance of getting one of those hated ‘mission failed’ messages should I be wrong, so I reloaded…

I am laughing right now. You were thinking "well, this is not right, I should win by destroying the enemy, but I can't do it after reaching the money, so I'll reload before failing the mission", and I was "I have the money needed. What now? wait... they are coming too much! it's impossible!

And then loosing all my units and some buildings and just give up the map withouth waiting for the "mission failed" text.

Spoiler
1 hour ago, Domaithianus said:

I started to get the feeling I wasn’t supposed to survive here…

And you were right xD. search the mission win trigger and look one of the ways to win.

 

Edited by Cm_blast

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Fey    4
3 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

OK, I've got my write up of the first 4 missions ready.

  Hide contents

S1V1
This was a good first mission for players who already know the game. I liked the use of a separate AI to give the player a nice, pretty base to look at, and give the feeling of a proper set-up, while avoiding derailing the mission premise with too much stuff.


The inclusion of the repair pad was a nice touch, allowing the player to strike out at full strength every time, and avoiding having to give the player too many units. It kept each assault to precision attacks, and encouraged hit-and-run type tactics, which a) fit with the Ordos style units the Smugglers use, and b) fits plot-wise with the underdog Smuggler theme of the campaign.


I did find I had some trouble after taking out the silos in the Eastern base, as I hadn’t noticed the second base tucked away to the North, and proceeded to waste time and units assaulting up the bridge, trying to find what I’d missed. Some of the problem was not being able to review the briefing in-game (obviously, no fault of yours), so I couldn’t make sure I hadn’t missed anything there without minimising the game. As such, I levelled the entire base, just to be sure, and started scouring the map before I found the silo’s in the northern base, much to my relief.
When the message popped up about being halfway, I was distracted by the bridge, leading to more Eastern base, which also contributed to my confusion.
Perhaps a map reveal, or pop-up message hinting to the location of the second base would help?

The briefing was very nicely done, with immersive story, and character development – not usually something I would expect from this kind of mod. To give the player a character to play was an interesting, and cool decision.

All in all, a very good start.

 

S1V2

I was a little surprised to find this one as V2, rather than V1. Much more of a tutorial type mission. I very much approve of the decision to have one first mission for experienced players, and one for beginners, but shouldn’t they be other way around? Hardly a huge issue, but seemed a little odd to me.
The timer surprised me. I wonder if it could panic beginners, who are just getting to grips with the tutorial aspect of this mission. Then again, I may be biased here, as I hate timers I have to beat. You did, however, put plenty of time on the clock, so it’s hardly difficult to beat.
It was a cool turn of events when the Imperial forces showed up, giving the player a practice enabled AI to beat.
Prompts, and messages were all appropriately placed, and well worked into the plot.

 

S2V1

I noticed the briefing flicked from present tense, to past tense, and back again at one point. It’s only brief, but it’s not great for consistency.

The rest of the briefing was, again, very nicely done – interesting, immersive, and still easy to follow as to what you have to do.
The mission started well enough. Nice little base, single turret – came in very useful for a mission of this type – end looked to be well within reach… and then my base building OCD kicked in, and I kept delaying the last funds, buying more and more units I didn’t need – or so I thought – couldn’t leave this unfinished…

1.thumb.png.ed0f0f6814a6953f295e4745d73b3f94.png

Then I let the funds come in. Ahh, message. Sounds serious. Good thing I delayed winning – oh.
After reloading, and delaying the start by even more, I started to get the feeling I wasn’t supposed to survive here…

3.thumb.png.b8b7622e2e09e88d23ff4cbf0a9f691e.png

This was a fraction of my force. I couldn’t move it all at once. Still, it wasn’t enough.
Realising my being overwhelmed was most likely meant to happen, I still wasn’t OK with taking the chance of getting one of those hated ‘mission failed’ messages should I be wrong, so I reloaded…

5.thumb.png.3112fd7101b7ec20b7ba3723558b565b.png

Much better. Glad that was an option.

I couldn’t help but notice you switched a standard Ordos style Starport in for the Smuggler one. Was that because of the build icon? Seems a shame, as I love the aesthetic of the Smuggler Starport.

 

S2V2

Again, there’s the same problem with past and present tense in the briefing – it’s the same part. Have a look:
“ The monitor flickers to life. Though its display is choked by static, you can make out threads of black where Sumadi's hair should be and a mug of Spice coffee in his hairy hand. His collared wrist was steady as he raised the mug, and the static cleared, revealing his dark skin. When he sighed and set the mug down in front of him, his eyes snapped open, staring into the camera. They were an awe-inspiring deep blue that seared color into your sand- and rock-painted mind.”

 

The next paragraph returns to present tense again.

 

Mission premise looks very cool. Definitely feels right for Smugglers. Let’s get salvaging shall we?
The start of this mission looks very cool, though I was weary from the start of having a unit representing me that I couldn’t control. I feel like there’s too much that can wrong there. It certainly did for me. Be it standing around in the middle of a swarm of Sardaukar getting shot when I’m supposed to be running away, turning around and picking a fight with a hoard of trikes, or just getting run over while retreating by faster moving tanks. Every step of the way, this unit is annoying the hell out of me.
Anyways, after sacrificing stupid numbers of units as straight up meat-shields to protect this suicidal representation of me, I got to the Fremen. Some nice dialogue. Definitely getting the feel for this obsessive Imperial commander.
7.thumb.png.85ff40f8c8c707167303f68c5fc01700.png

However, once I overpowered the Imperial base… nothing. Just continued reinforcements, with no clear objective. Not really sure what I’m supposed to do, unless it’s just sit here until I run out of money, and try to survive. It all feels very vague.
I have to be honest, I got frustrated with this mission and quit. I’ve got it saved after taking out the Imperial base, so I may go back at some point, but for now, I think I’m gonna move on.

That's all I've had time to write up so far, but I'll be sure to post more in the near future.  Hoe you found it useful.

That's all very helpful, thank you!

Spoiler

S1V1's only the first version because it was the first one I designed. I agree that I should swap it around, so... I will :P Next update!

If you were able to review the briefing, perhaps seeing "Halfway done!" and knowing that there are two bases, one north and one east, might make it clearer. Then again, the base you razed was... northeast... so...

I did insert some reveal map triggers for when you approach either base, but I have an idea: Reveal the other base after you find one base. Eh?
-----------------------------------
The timer at the beginning of S1V2 is meant to prevent the player from cheesing the map, since one could just build up nonstop and then flatten the Imperials as soon as they arrive. I worked it into the test so that if the timer does run out, Sumadi says you failed the evaluation because you're 'simply not efficient enough.' Some players still manage to beat up the Imperials ASAP, but the timer helps prevent overkill, at least.

Did the worm give you much trouble on S1V2, by any chance?
-----------------------------------
Thanks for the grammar heads up on S2V1. I missed that, obviously, and I would rather completely avoid grammatical errors. I'm kiiinda a nazi when it comes to grammar, but I'm also kinda absent-minded. :) There's also an error on S1V1 where "Silo" is not capitalized, as with any other unit or structure mentioned in-game or briefing.

S2V1 is one of my proudest maps. I offered the player tremendous flexibility against the superior Imperial units with the rock formation in the middle of the map, which I see from a screenshot you uncovered... the one turret at the base, and the Starport, for a second line of defense (or first, I guess, depending on where you set up. potent defense nonetheless!)... and one-time reinforcements that show up if you lose all of either your Quads or Raiders. At the same time, I discourage the player from immediately rushing to 10k credits by giving the Imperials two sets of reinforcements depending on how many credits you accrue, making it extremely difficult to reach that quota without devoting some resources to defenses. Furthermore, I'm quite happy with the way the AIs are set up, and with the Imperial base itself, which is extremely difficult to penetrate. As it should be, on this map! The player is not meant to go and blow them up. :P

No doubt, you witnessed how powerful their defenses are when you poked at their base. "Bold, and stupid," Giraud asserted, and yet you showed him otherwise. Still... how many people died in your insane quest to raze that base? :O Congratulations on beating it that way, by the way, that's not easy in the slightest lol

Yes, the ending of both versions of level 2 results in the player's defeat. As Cm said. Despite that, it still says "Mission Accomplished" after the Imperials crush most of your base, since you did complete the objective and the map was "beaten" in the way it was meant to be. Have you played Starcraft at all? Or Freespace? Freespace isn't an RTS, but both games have twists of various sorts, and I drew inspiration from that sort of design. In S2V1 in particular, the map is beaten canonically after you get 10,000 Solaris, and everything after that is just the cinematic ending.

Since the smugglers are not a Great House, and they're often picked on by the Great Houses, I wanted to establish a weakness the original game didn't really get across, naturally because you are on a mission to conquer the entire planet. The smugglers are only miners intermixed with mercenaries, they cannot possibly survive on their own, and that's what I wanted to convey with how often the campaign screws the player over. Of course, in the LATER missions, you have allies! And that's the only plausible way to achieve final victory over your enemies. In fact, you'll get the option to group up with allies on either version of level 3, so... have fun. :D

Did you bother the Fremen? They're the mission's official "hard mode." If you destroy them, more will come for revenge before your quota is fulfilled. Several missions have an optional hard mode you can enable by your own actions as the battle progresses.

Yes, the Starport was changed because of the thumbnail. Very unfortunate, I know, but it broke my immersion seeing a screwy icon on the sidebar, so I changed it for the sake of that. You may be happy to know that the mercenaries' Heavy Factory has remained in, and it even allows one to produce Missile Tanks. Durant favors them over Deviators, obviously.

Edit: Here's the vid run for S2V1, in case you wanna check out the canonical ending or whatever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVDqwYDRxx0

Their final reinforcements show up around 11:40 and the end begins a little after that.
-----------------------------------
Ah, I'm sorry S2V2 gave you so much trouble. Let's see here...

Okay, about Summers, I wanted to include an escort of some sort but Summers is a female character. If you were able to control her, the unit voices are still male, and that'd break immersion 'n' stuff. Escorting an NPC is weird for Dune 2000, but there are ways to do it safely:
 - Don't let Summers take point. She'll heal up to half HP, as all infantry with my mod do, but too much focus from the enemy and she'll go down quick.
 - Focus fire on anything at all that comes in close to her (i.e. - the Carryalls after the trap is sprung) so it dies quick.
 - If Summers is being pursued, cover her with any units available, at any cost. If she dies, it's over.

The way I did the escort is like this: Summers is hostile to side 1 500 tics into the game. Side 1 has two Grenadiers and three Light Infantry, along with a bunch of Saboteurs you may catch a glimpse of if you're quick in wandering into the captured smuggler base. Summers will kill the closest units every time, so she'll go after the Grenadiers, then the Light Infantry, and then go into the base.

After that, side 3 receives five Light Infantry, one Grenadier, and two Trikes, which Summers will attack. Given the Saboteurs she always attacks are higher-up than the Carryalls, there's room between her and the incoming enemy forces, where you can place your troops to help draw incoming fire since they also attack the closest stuff. After that wave, the Combat Tanks and Sardaukar are allied with Summers, and vice versa - she will not attack them. This is much needed because side 0 is set to enemy when the tanks arrive, so Summers' AI will send her up to the Fremen. At that point, by exploring the Fremen location, she initiates the next phase of the map. The Imperials will NEVER attack Summers for the rest of the map, but the critical target they will attack is the Sietch.

So, her AI is set to berserk and it's on rails. The units leading to the captured smuggler base are easy pickings, the first wave arriving via Carryall (which Summers attacks) is hardly a threat to your units, and the final wave is meant to send you running. Under no circumstances should she be turning around to attack the Sardaukar and Combat Tanks, nor should they attack or squish her, because they arrive when her AI is allied with their AI.

For the record, like the ending of S2V1 and for the rest of S2V2, the Imperial forces are practically guaranteed to defeat your forces at some point. Keeping your own units is not mandatory, as long as Summers survives, and the map will ALWAYS progress as long as Summers is alive so you will always have units. Remember, Giraud is trying to KILL you. He's got a vastly superior army and will pull no punches - the player is indeed meant to use units as meat-shields, because he lured you into a trap and there's no way in hell he's gonna let you go off easy. ...If that is your complaint about the, uhh... needing to use so many units to protect Summers. She should be fleeing anyway, so it shouldn't be so bad.

Speaking of which, pardon if this is the case, but did I forget to remove the objective that states the units escorting Summers must survive? I think I might have forgotten to remove that... like I said, ANY cost, as long as Summers is alive, the mission progresses.

Ah, you overpowered the Imperial base? That's no good, they're supposed to build up a bunch of stuff and go attack you. Hmm... perhaps I could... make it so that the Imperials will receive replacement MCVs (and more) if you take out their ConYard. That could be the missing piece...

They're not supposed to be the only thing, though. The Imperials receive more and more reinforcements the lower your Solaris amount, making the map more intense as it goes on. Their base is just there to help them seem more imposing and give them more stuff to throw at you. Seeing as you destroyed their means of production and had only the initial reinforcements to deal with, I see that you've managed to stall the map entirely. This is obviously a game-breaking error, so I need to fix this. Thank you :) Although I apologize for the frustration, that ain't good. I hope, if you come back to it, you enjoy it!

How did you manage to defeat the Imperials, by the way? Did their units all leave the base or something? Did you just have a ton of units left over, and beat them up when they landed?

Also here, this is the raw footage of my own vid run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV2KGsOjpAw

While it's a tad outdated, the premise and structure of the map remain the same. Here are some noteworthy events:
00:25 - Moving down the path, taking out the five Imperial infantry before the captured smuggler base.


00:50 - REALLY bad RNG with the debris wipes out nearly all of my infantry, forcing me to quickly form up my light vehicles and remaining troops. I manage to fend off the first wave with very little, and that works perfectly because the first wave is meant to be a warm-up, something you're meant to kill. Being able to do this after having lost so much means this wave works.

01:05 - Here's the second wave. Since I lost a crapload of units, I try to weaken the tanks up, but I hardly succeed. This wave is brutal, as it's meant to be, and Summers flees in the middle of it.

01:20 - I receive my own reinforcements, intended to at least stall the Imperial forces. They'll appear to chase after Summers, while you block their way. These units are quite substantial and likely to survive, especially if you managed to do more damage with your initial units to the second wave. I did crap damage to the second wave this time around, yet these reinforcements still manage to defeat them all. However, it doesn't matter if they survive or die, since as you can see, Summers progresses the map by initiating her conversation with the Fremen on her own.

02:15 - I have claimed the base and proceed to pump out units. By doing so, I cause more Imperial reinforcements to begin arriving.

07:13 - I've hit the end condition for this map. Now, when the Imperial forces overwhelm me (as they will) and destroy the Sietch, it'll be Mission Accomplished. Losing the Sietch before you can get out is, of course, Mission Failed.

Given the above... was anything broken on your end? Did you make a choice I did not foresee?

Thanks again. I hope you enjoy the rest of the maps. :)

Quote

I am laughing right now. You were thinking "well, this is not right, I should win by destroying the enemy, but I can't do it after reaching the money, so I'll reload before failing the mission", and I was "I have the money needed. What now? wait... they are coming too much! it's impossible!

And then loosing all my units and some buildings and just give up the map withouth waiting for the "mission failed" text.

XD If only I could hint to the player that "yes this is supposed to happen" without making it all spoilery. I mean, I'm trying to :( Got any ideas? lol

Edited by Fey
Added vid runs to reconcile tests versus intent.

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5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I am laughing right now. You were thinking "well, this is not right, I should win by destroying the enemy, but I can't do it after reaching the money, so I'll reload before failing the mission", and I was "I have the money needed. What now? wait... they are coming too much! it's impossible!

And then loosing all my units and some buildings and just give up the map withouth waiting for the "mission failed" text.

  Reveal hidden contents

And you were right xD. search the mission win trigger and look one of the ways to win.

 

By the second reload, I was fairly convinced that I was supposed to be overwhelmed, but I'm stubborn.  I also had far too pretty a base to let it get crushed.

4 hours ago, Fey said:

Have you played Starcraft at all? Or Freespace?

I have indeed played Freespace.  I wondered if you may have been inspired by some of the twist ending in that.  It is very reminiscent of that.
I would say, S2V1 is more clear as to what's supposed to happen than S2V2.  V1, I'd clearly hit the objective, and then something almost comically overpowered hit me.  In V2, the overpowering is a bit more subtle, and gives off more of a feeling that it's supposed to be beatable.  Especially after I took down the base.
 

 

4 hours ago, Fey said:

How did you manage to defeat the Imperials, by the way? Did their units all leave the base or something? Did you just have a ton of units left over, and beat them up when they landed?

I had retreated to the Fremen base before I assaulted the Imperials, but I hit them early, while they were still building.  I used a couple of trikes to coax the tanks and Sardaukar out of the base, then crept in with light infantry and grenadiers.  If you perhaps included some Siege Tanks that guard only, I don't think there's any way in hell I could have done it.  It would also have made it a little more clear that winning was not something I was supposed to be able to do, even eventually.
Given V1, I had been expecting another twist ending, but I expected to hit a clear objective first, which is what threw me.

The objectives list in S2V2 does state 'Your escort must survive'.

The twist ending isn't unprecedented in C&C type games either.  There's the Soviet mission in Red Alert in which the Chronosphere you're supposed to capture explodes, even if you do everything right.

Just to be clear, I do really love the creativity in this campaign, and aside from getting frustrated with S2V2, I've been very much enjoying it.

Aside from hitting the end trigger, the progression all seems about right.

Edited by Domaithianus

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Cm_blast    74
2 hours ago, Fey said:

XD If only I could hint to the player that "yes this is supposed to happen" without making it all spoilery. I mean, I'm trying to :( Got any ideas? lol

The only way I can think, it's making one (or more) of the reinforcements that appear when the quota is reached (If you have it, I don't have the map in front on me right now) owner by a side not present until then.

Then, some kind of message "We have the money, preparing evacuation, survive meanwhile", and here you can add the casualties event. After the player succesfully defeat 5-10-15-20-?? units from that side. "Ship ready, retreat" "mission accomplished" and let the mission end by winning even when the enemy is crearly superior to you.

Edited by Cm_blast

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Fey    4
5 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

By the second reload, I was fairly convinced that I was supposed to be overwhelmed, but I'm stubborn.  I also had far too pretty a base to let it get crushed.

Well, they don't destroy the WHOLE thing... just most of it! :)

5 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

I have indeed played Freespace.  I wondered if you may have been inspired by some of the twist ending in that.  It is very reminiscent of that.
I would say, S2V1 is more clear as to what's supposed to happen than S2V2.  V1, I'd clearly hit the objective, and then something almost comically overpowered hit me.  In V2, the overpowering is a bit more subtle, and gives off more of a feeling that it's supposed to be beatable.  Especially after I took down the base.

Ah, someone else who has played Freespace! That's wonderful. It's so bizarrely unknown. Yes, when you arrive on the scene and the objectives suddenly pull a 180 and you have an entirely different goal in the mission... that's definitely inspired by how it's been done elsewhere.

Yes, I see. Well... if I refund the Imperials' MCV each time the player blows up their base, that might prevent stagnation. Do you suppose that's a plausible solution?

5 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

I had retreated to the Fremen base before I assaulted the Imperials, but I hit them early, while they were still building.  I used a couple of trikes to coax the tanks and Sardaukar out of the base, then crept in with light infantry and grenadiers.  If you perhaps included some Siege Tanks that guard only, I don't think there's any way in hell I could have done it.  It would also have made it a little more clear that winning was not something I was supposed to be able to do, even eventually.

Given V1, I had been expecting another twist ending, but I expected to hit a clear objective first, which is what threw me.

I believe I tried using Siege Tanks on guard mode, but it didn't work out because I was able to cheese their range. That annoying limit on maximum events and conditions has prevented me from working out the kinks very cleanly, so I make do with what room I have. Perhaps I could have the Imperials build Siege Tanks, but they will send them at the player eventually. Would make Quads super useful, at least; they're rather excessive at this juncture.

Right.

5 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

The objectives list in S2V2 does state 'Your escort must survive'.

Oh, God damn it. I knew I forgot something.

Didja have a look at the S2V2 vid run? Was there something different you did (or didn't do) that caused you to have so much trouble with Summers? Or... anything else?

5 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

The twist ending isn't unprecedented in C&C type games either.  There's the Soviet mission in Red Alert in which the Chronosphere you're supposed to capture explodes, even if you do everything right.

Oh yeah, that's right. Gee, I totally forgot about that.

5 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

Just to be clear, I do really love the creativity in this campaign, and aside from getting frustrated with S2V2, I've been very much enjoying it.

Aside from hitting the end trigger, the progression all seems about right.

I'm glad about that :D I hope you continue to enjoy it. Thank you.

If you enjoy the progression segment before the survival bit, I expanded on the idea a tad in the bonus mission... it takes place after either version of level 2 and before either version of level 3. I won't spoil anything else, but I look forward to your feedback on that one!

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

The only way I can think, it's making one (or more) of the reinforcements that appear when the quota is reached (If you have it, I don't have the map in front on me right now) owner by a side not present until then.

Then, some kind of message "We have the money, preparing evacuation, survive meanwhile", and here you can add the casualties event. After the player succesfully defeat 5-10-15-20-?? units from that side. "Ship ready, retreat" "mission accomplished" and let the mission end by winning even when the enemy is crearly superior to you.

Oh, that's interesting as well. Would kinda derail SBON, though...

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On 9/13/2017 at 4:08 PM, Fey said:

XD If only I could hint to the player that "yes this is supposed to happen" without making it all spoilery. I mean, I'm trying to :( Got any ideas? lol

Just had one thought...  you could avoid coming out and saying it, but hint a lot more strongly if the player thinks there's a pick-up, or reinforcements coming at the end of a timer, or just at an undisclosed time, like 'on their way'.  Give the player a feeling that they're still working toward a clear objective.  But at the end, have swarms of Imperials come in, and a message along the lines of 'It's too hot, can't come, just run!' or something like that.  If you don't wanna put a timer in, maybe just say they'll be there soon, and trigger the end the same way as you do, when they player runs low on money.

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Fey    4
1 hour ago, Domaithianus said:

Just had one thought...  you could avoid coming out and saying it, but hint a lot more strongly if the player thinks there's a pick-up, or reinforcements coming at the end of a timer, or just at an undisclosed time, like 'on their way'.  Give the player a feeling that they're still working toward a clear objective.  But at the end, have swarms of Imperials come in, and a message along the lines of 'It's too hot, can't come, just run!' or something like that.  If you don't wanna put a timer in, maybe just say they'll be there soon, and trigger the end the same way as you do, when they player runs low on money.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll be sure to screw around with it. I think Sumadi could say he's gonna send reinforcements or something sooner, 'cause he does say at the end, "I can't reach you in time!"

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