Superheroes and Übermenschen

[Edric O]

While I'm on the topic of criticizing popular culture... here is a great analysis of recent superhero movies that I've recently run across:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-ugly-lessons-hiding-in-every-superhero-movie/

It really seems to me that much of the superhero genre essentially promotes a fascist ethic: The superior individual, breaking the constraints of the rule of law that only exist to keep him down, uses extreme violence to smack down unworthy upstarts. Things like democratic government or human rights - not to mention due process - are just bureaucratic barriers to be overcome in order to crush the bad guys. And superheroes aren't just super-strong, they are also super-correct about everything. They never make a wrong decision (or if they do, they always fix it later). One wonders why they don't simply take over the world and rule as benevolent dictators.

Most important of all, recent superhero movies tend to feature protagonists that were born with great power and/or destined to greatness, and they are destroying enemies who were trying to rise above their proper place. It's a very elitist and aristocratic message.

[Spectral Paladin]

Lol. I 'm sorry I 'm not going to read the link but your post seems out of touch with the superhero genre. And I 'm not even a big fan, I 've just been watching the blockbusters that come out every year. Not reading comics or anything though.

Super-correct? Quite the contrary, I think the whole genre has been shifting towards a more mature view of the whole thing, where it's not always clear what's right and what isn't.
Take over as dictators? Pretty sure that's been done in the Justice League anime (can find clips on youtube).

Yes Batman's immense drive is pretty inspiring. Just imagine if he only worked 8 hours per day and spent the rest on the internet blaming the powers that be for all the wrongs in the world...he 'd almost be a leftie! :P

[X3M]

Nice topic.

 

One of the best examples in this would be Xavier.

He is so goody goody. And you are sure he is always right.

Or does he make you think that he is goody goody and always right?

 

This is how I see him:

He keeps the weak minded close to himself. The X-men are people with trauma's and thus where easily persuaded. They all think that Xavier has saved them. But did he really do that? They swear loyalty to him. And are willing to do anything for him. So in short, the X-men are his personal puppets.

 

link to the wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_X

[MrFlibble]

While I'm on the topic of criticizing popular culture... here is a great analysis of recent superhero movies that I've recently run across:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-ugly-lessons-hiding-in-every-superhero-movie/

That article has some more or less interesting observations but nothing special on the whole.

It really seems to me that much of the superhero genre essentially promotes a fascist ethic: The superior individual, breaking the constraints of the rule of law that only exist to keep him down, uses extreme violence to smack down unworthy upstarts. Things like democratic government or human rights - not to mention due process - are just bureaucratic barriers to be overcome in order to crush the bad guys. And superheroes aren't just super-strong, they are also super-correct about everything. They never make a wrong decision (or if they do, they always fix it later). One wonders why they don't simply take over the world and rule as benevolent dictators.

Hmm, I don't think that someone consciously promotes some ethic or other in this type of films - rather, the companies just serve the audience what they think the audience wants, and I guess that this is really what the average movie theatre goer wants to spend their time watching.

BTW, I'm not sure if you read TVTropes, but there's a pretty huge category of Superhero tropes that covers most of the typical story/plot/setting/conflict/moral etc. things this genre has.

My personal opinion here is that most of entertainment films today (not that I watch many but I read reviews) are just nonsense this way or another, and mostly recycle old ideas from previous epochs. If they took something from totalitarian propaganda films then it was probably done unconsciously, and not directly from the source material, but distorted by numerous citations and "cultural references" in other works.

[Davidu]

I see the whole superhero idea is more like a Deus ex Machina and less than a conspiracy/terrorist group. Mentally it would persuade the readers to ACT instead of WITNESS things by presenting them repectable vigilates. I don't think it goes to present some cathegories as better than others.

 

On the other hand it would work like that because most, well, ALL superheros are american-based as this genre originated there. So the american public must have a subconcious superiority feeling when it comes to this... don't get me wrong, I mean I don't see any other country having superheroes that would cooperate with the ones depicted in the american comics.

 

This must partly be because the heroes of the day were of different types: Robin Hood is a generous highway robber for example, and most out of the ordinary heroes in europe were rebels and robbers or at least outlaws for some reason or another. I mean the american hero seems more like a cowboy banding up with other cowboys, taking law in their own hands and doing the right thing because state's rule of law is ... faaaaar faaaar away. Now, if we'd depict an european superhero he'd probably be a super con artist or a super highway robber constantly evading the police. or that's how i see it. i mean i seriously doubt european, middle eastern or asian governments would feel good about having a hypothetical character, highly uncontrollable, doing their job and exposing their weaknesses to the public. also all around the world each country might have heroes from wars with their neighbors, while the US, lacking many neighbors concentrated it's heros on fighting the crime.

 

ok. i dunno if it made much sense but i guess superheroes are more of a more american variety of heroes. and that's why the american exceptionalism is also depicted there (i mean the observations Edric made). 

 

 

Now, it would be interesting to research why didn't other nations feel they need a superhero...

[Edric O]

Super-correct? Quite the contrary, I think the whole genre has been shifting towards a more mature view of the whole thing, where it's not always clear what's right and what isn't.

Really? Can you name just one recent superhero movie in which a superhero beats up, arrests, or otherwise commits injustice against an innocent person? I certainly can't think of any. Yes, superhero movies today are more "mature" in the sense that superheroes are shown to be real human beings with real emotions and character flaws, but they are character flaws, not mistakes in believing that an innocent person is guilty.

The whole reason why we have a judiciary system at all, with courts, judges, prosecutors, lawyers and so on, is because in the real world it is not at all easy to determine who is innocent and who is guilty. Superheroes don't have that problem - except sometimes they accidentally think someone is innocent when that person is in fact guilty (i.e. they are too trusting or too leninent). They never make the opposite mistake, they never punish an innocent person by accident.

Take over as dictators? Pretty sure that's been done in the Justice League anime (can find clips on youtube).

Right. That's why this is only about movies, not other media.

Yes Batman's immense drive is pretty inspiring. Just imagine if he only worked 8 hours per day and spent the rest on the internet blaming the powers that be for all the wrongs in the world...he 'd almost be a leftie! :P

I'm pretty sure the last Batman movie established the fact that Bruce Wayne spent 8 years (the time between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises) just being angsty and sulking in his manor, never going outside, because he was too depressed. So much for his immense drive. :P

Hmm, I don't think that someone consciously promotes some ethic or other in this type of films - rather, the companies just serve the audience what they think the audience wants, and I guess that this is really what the average movie theatre goer wants to spend their time watching.

Oh, I did not mean to suggest that any of this is conscious or intentional. Of course it isn't. The film companies are just trying to make simple-minded action movies without much plot or characterization, because this is the sort of light escapist fun that audiences appreciate (and there's nothing wrong with that; I watch a lot of these movies myself).

I'm just saying that precisely because they don't really stop to think about the plot, they have unintentionally ended up with movies that promote a fascist ethic. Fortunately, audiences don't pay much attention to these plots either, so the bad message doesn't really spread.

Still, it's something interesting to think about.

Nice topic.

One of the best examples in this would be Xavier.

He is so goody goody. And you are sure he is always right.

Or does he make you think that he is goody goody and always right?

This is how I see him:

He keeps the weak minded close to himself. The X-men are people with trauma's and thus where easily persuaded. They all think that Xavier has saved them. But did he really do that? They swear loyalty to him. And are willing to do anything for him. So in short, the X-men are his personal puppets.

X-Men is one of the worst offenders in terms of having a crypto-fascist message. You have this master race of super-humans (the mutants) who hold the fate of the world in their hands. The only conflict that matters is the one between two different mutant factions, and ultimately between Xavier and Magneto. Ordinary human beings are just puppets and victims. They are incapable of defending themselves from the evil mutants, and need to good mutants to save them. Ordinary humans continue to have their lives and freedom only because the mutants allow it - only because Xavier disagrees with Magneto. If Xavier decided to join Magneto, Homo sapiens could easily be reduced to the status of a slave race.

[Spectral Paladin]

You 'd probably like Megamind, it toys with the whole 'destined for' idea.

[Davidu]

I still say that each society creates its own movies (and art, to be wholistic). Look at scandinavian movies: unbearingbly psychological. Italian movies: about savoir vivre fights and sex. French movies close by... Though all societies have their heroes, USA has super-heroes. I think it's a subconscious way of dealing with their doctrine of exceptionalism.

 

On the same thread of ideas romanian movies of today are all bleak, surreal, about corruption and hoplessness (very widespread themes in the former communist block). And yet no one invents a superhero, or even a hero...

 

I think we need a sociologist in this discution :)

[Spectral Paladin]

By the way, Edric sorry for a one line response to your post, but I can't get myself to start analysing why movies are fine as they are. I could argue the nolan movies already make a good job of questioning whether the batman's presence does more harm than good, but yea it sounds wrong already. It's entertainment. What would you ask of a two hour movie? That it shows a hero abusing his power and not correcting his mistake by the end either - so as to teach the public the dangers of such a suberbeing? That seems a lot more like propaganda than what they are at the moment.

 

On the same thread of ideas romanian movies of today are all bleak, surreal, about corruption and hoplessness (very widespread themes in the former communist block). And yet no one invents a superhero, or even a hero...

 

I digress from movies again but this reminds me of the witcher games and is pretty why I love them. A very bleak world, though Geralt makes a good hero. (they 're based on books by a Polish writer).

 

That said, I fail to see how you can consider the movies on their own. They did not spring out of thin air, they 're based on comics and if we have several superhero blockbusters every year now, it's just because nerds have taken over the world :D

What about Japan and their mangas, what does say about them? In dragonball z the characters could destroy a planet on a whim and humans are portrayed as stupid and helpless. Oh the horror...

[Davidu]

Well that's the asian philosophy of life :D The people are sh*t and have to obey the establishment. In the meantime they try to be happy trying not to think of their condition by working hard (aka spending all day long at work, not necessarily working), shopping (hard) aaaand... the eventual nationalistic outcry every now and then. So it's interesting that Japan and Korea have this kind of superhero symbols. But that's asia. 

[MrFlibble]

Oh, I did not mean to suggest that any of this is conscious or intentional. Of course it isn't. The film companies are just trying to make simple-minded action movies without much plot or characterization, because this is the sort of light escapist fun that audiences appreciate (and there's nothing wrong with that; I watch a lot of these movies myself).

I'm just saying that precisely because they don't really stop to think about the plot, they have unintentionally ended up with movies that promote a fascist ethic. Fortunately, audiences don't pay much attention to these plots either, so the bad message doesn't really spread.

Still, it's something interesting to think about.

Well, I guess one could say that this is your "lite" version of the Milgram experiment.

[Spectral Paladin]

You 're bonkers.

[X3M]

Well that's the asian philosophy of life :D The people are sh*t and have to obey the establishment. In the meantime they try to be happy trying not to think of their condition by working hard (aka spending all day long at work, not necessarily working), shopping (hard) aaaand... the eventual nationalistic outcry every now and then. So it's interesting that Japan and Korea have this kind of superhero symbols. But that's asia. 

Strange how the Asians have the best economic progress when they don't work hard. If anyone can provide with a more recent picture?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Gdp_accumulated_change.png

 

What I quoted applies more to us, the western people. Than them, the eastern people.

 

Manga come from all those countries in the east. Not just korea and japan. Well, india is an exemption, they are not part, and I wonder how they have such good progress. Perhaps the cow is a good god. (Lucky for us Dutches) :D

 

What about Japan and their mangas, what does say about them? In dragonball z the characters could destroy a planet on a whim and humans are portrayed as stupid and helpless. Oh the horror...

 

DBZ is a bad example how they portrait people, since the creator tried to get to the whole world. And succeeded. His aim was to let DBZ look a bit like those of the Marvel universe. (Superman can disrupt the solar system too you know)

Most manga in general don't have "useless" people. They often have key roles too.

And the number of "hero's" is actually far greater in manga if you compare. The best thing in my opinion about manga is that they keep it check in 1 story line. Where everyone is linked. While the marvel universe has separate story lines for each hero and or villain. They only come together in specials.

[Davidu]

Spending a lot of time at work, is very different from working hard. You cannot say you're working hard and doing so much overtime if you use that overtime to watch movies at work. You cannot say you're such a hard worker if you spend your weekend at the office but you play computer games with your collegues those 2 days. It's not only China, where I work, but as far as my friends that worked in Japan have seen, there it's the same.

 

They have economic growth due to guvernment policies, currency devaluation and guvernment funding. Also due to copying a the original product, rebranding it and then competeing with the original product on the world market, at 1/10 the cost. With zero investment in research and development. 

 

The "Japanese miracle" of the '80s was build on cheap labour and a cheap currency. The bubble burst in the '90s.

The "Chinese miracle" is the same. And both factors are being kept artificially down by the guvenrment. The bubble will burst, and I hope I will be far away from here when it does. 4 months to go :D

[X3M]

Hmm, well, if you have personal experience.

I wonder how it is in north/south Korea then. All I know is that in the Netherlands, we work when provided. And try not to do overtime. But it is going off topic now.

 

---

 

I would like to know what this milgram experiment is.

[MrFlibble]

I would like to know what this milgram experiment is.

Well, here you go:

Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures

Also related is Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment