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Creating a board game based on RTS games.


X3M

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As said before, nvm the previous post.

Abusing should not be allowed to the max. Thus it is choice 1. The attacker chooses, it can be one victim to the death or several for weakening health in general.

And new strategies are born as well :).

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  • 3 weeks later...

Working on the maps constantly.

Since Art is my worst aspect of game designing, I have decided to watch video's etc. on this matter.

 

2 steps forward, one step back.

 

It is soooo hard to get the right set of textures. But my Grass/Forest combination has showed me that the technique that I am using is well worth the effort. The biggest problem is the right set of pictures where the 5 main textures are needed. Water/Grass/Sand/Rocks or Mountain/Forest terrain is what I need. (I will make my own mixes ;) )

Of course if the set of textures has some other terrain as well, this will be welcomed. But those 5 are the basis.

Then again, if only 3 or 4 are in the set. I can leap further. For each additional terrain texture, I need to search for one that fits all the ones that are being used.

 

3.44 MB + 3.88 MB for the 2 pictures. This one is going into the bin once I reach my quota that is allowed on this forum. So I guess I keep it up here for about a year?... Maybe?...

 

post-2682-0-99812300-1416093544_thumb.pn

post-2682-0-57342200-1416093998_thumb.pn

 

Please, flame/comment/advice/suggest

or whatsoever on these pictures.

 

It will help me getting better in designing.

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  • 8 months later...

Updates? Well yes. Although, life/work has really taken a lot of time from me.

 

These are the Events of the last 9 months:

 

Cutting every where in the rules when possible. Trying to make the game as easy as possible.

 

- Changed the map making technique in the last posts. Hexagons have only 1 terrain type. Mixes are used as well. With 7 types of terrain, I can make 28 in total. The basic terrains are now: Water/Desert/Grass/Hard ground/Snow/Forrest/Rock. Still with 1/6th as a minimum of space. The centre only contains numbers for terrain height, no more indication colours. The ridges(walls/rivers) are also still there. First I make a basic map with the 28 basic colours. These colours are mapped by me in what numbers they contain. 128 red/128 blue/0 green/ and those other value's. Then I replace them one by one with a texture. This takes time if a lot of different colours are used. Of course I still have the 19 hexagons/A4. However, I also plan on big maps and simply get the 19Hex pieces ready. I can simply copy existing maps and use my own textures.

 

- Changed the rule for experience put in damage. Instead of increased value's for 1D6. You now roll 1D6 to determine if you may roll an extra D6 for damage. This means that there is one table less for players to remember.

 

- Players that I know like to design their own armies. For the pieces however, I have decided to use black/white symbols for basics. This happened recently, so I am still searching for usable pictures. Google is once again not a good friend. Most are to small. Others have anti copy all over the place. These symbols are 20 x 20 mm. And one of them is placed on an unit statistics card. All players have the same symbols. Some players share a card. Other players might have an unique unit. No more tables for reference. Actually, you place the cards on a table as reference. To separate the symbols by player however, I also introduced colour references. This will limit players in the number of squads on the board. They are 25 x 25 mm.

 

- I got my hands on unused plastic white bucket lids and permanent markers. The combination is superb! You can easily whipe off the information with a piece of cloth. I cut out pieces of 20 x 20 mm. They are like little whiteboard cards. Now health, experience, upgrades and number of units can be tracked. H, X, H+, S, R, D, N. It rarely happens that all 7 are on the little cards.

 

- I got more plastification news. I got my hands on a plastification machine.

plastifieuse.gif?template=generic

This means that I don't only have paper pieces any more. That normally would be pasted on card board. No, this time I plastificate a print. And then I cut out the pieces. Yes! I can cut them with ease, and the plastic remains in place. The weight is now less than 1/4th. But the thickness is only 1/8th. This means that the density is somewhat 2 times higher. Somehow, wind has way less effect in blowing them away. It also requires way less work for the making, my cutting is in half and less trouble some. No more drawing lines on cardboard. No more pre cutting the cardboard.

And the durability is increased about a ten fold. Huray for this!. I started with the pieces. However, maps will follow. I expect here even a faster job, once again, no cardboard needed. But perhaps I will paste the plastic on the cardboard for a very nice GameBoard. :)

 

Should I post photo's?

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I bought a while ago a Silhouette Portrait and it accepts vectors images from inkscape after I save them to .dxf format. Works quite nice and not so expensive. I think it can also cut the plastic coating (0.8mm max thickness) (A4 size). Silhouette also has a newer model which can cut even more and emboss. With this machine you can cut out a lot of cards in no time. It also has printed paper alignment feature to cut out paper with printed stuff on it. Perhaps you can check it out? I can also do some preview-cuts if you would like to.

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Ah, Hell Yeah!!

I mean, that looks nice. :)

You could try it out on one of the old map segments from post 211.

I found them to much work. But they are sure work that I kept.

Now, the big question here is, what happens when you cut them?

I mean, with plastification, there is a risk that the sheet starts to curl/bend due to fast cooling down or not paying attention to when and where to support the plastic. Even with 20 x 20 mm, I had 4 pieces that where a fail due to bending.

In the given video, you also see the paper curling with the flower. I can't have that with things that have to remain as flat as possible.

Will this curling be worse or less with a plastic layer?

 

Not to mention, will it cut in the right place?

 

To bad that it is 0,8 mm. The bucket lids are of harder material and 0,9 mm.

It is those for that I truly seek a faster and better way. And it is those that don't contain pictures. However, I don't need much, they are to be recycled :)

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A newer version should be able to cut thicker stuff, but it's also more expensive.

 

Kinda funny is that 99% of the users of the machine are craft and paper type of woman. :P

 

How large should the tiles be? Do you have the vector file?  Some tiles look like they won´t fit properly with other tiles, I presume the tiles are played out randomly each game round?

 

Edit: And to be totally honest. I think it's great that you are designing your own game and sharing it, but I don't think this is the right place. You deserve more feedback which you don't get here. Do you also share the progress on a more boardgames focused forum?

Edited by D2k Sardaukar
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I post here since I consider this is to be my "home".

 

Well, I could go ask on BGDF if any one there knows a good cutter. Most people over there are men. And they do make a lot of games.

It is also the place where I had "more" feedback. However, the posting of pictures is super limited. You can only do so much... and you cannot delete them any more. I had a big leap when I started posting there. But it had a sudden stop.

 

Those tiles in #211 are the ones that are still used in a way. However, the nice curves of the terrain that you see was discarded last year. The several levels of mixture where discarded as well. (Right before my big pause called life)

The newer generation of tiles clearly will fit together in a way like how they are build up them selves.

In a way, I have returned to maps like those in #130, #139 and #140. However, I still use the tiles of 19 hexagons. And I even am planning in rebuilding these maps with segments. The edges are going to be rocks.

The plus side, there is going to be altitude this time :) .

Yes, some times the tiles are played out randomly. But mostly, we plan on big maps to be build with the tiles.

 

I am happy that at least 1 reacts. You can find me on BGDF. Same picture, same crappy TLDR posts :D

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Plastification.

 

20 x 20 mm, ok.

25 x 25 mm, ok.

 

A tile of 19 hexagons that has a diameter of 210 mm, not ok, not ok at all !!! It bends not matter how hard I try to get it flat. And after cutting it out, the bending can get worse too.

I also tried cutting out the tile. Then plastificate it, then cut it out again. I do not recommend this either. There is still a bend.

 

Thus map tiles, no plastification. Which is a bummer.

 


 

I tried stuff with the bucket lids on big scale too.

 

The bucket lids are just a tad too small as basis for my tiles as well. Cutting out at the edges is proven to be problematic immediately. I could cut out 2 halves or 3 thirds and put them together. But seeing as how the 20 x 20 mm pieces are a problem to putting together, I decided to not even try this out. Further more, the cut out bucket lid also bends. Less though, but it bends. My best chances with the board itself will be cardboard. I simply have to paste the tiles on cardboard and cut them out again. 'In the process I sacrificed one of my blank tiles, he will be missed'.

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Most boardgames have carton map tiles, perhaps because of this reason or perhaps just the cheapest.

 

Making the pieces goes rather fast on the machine, the biggest time consumption is designing the cut layout. My layout was not perfect some edges are not nice and perhaps adding a border for errors is also useful.

 

Here is an image of a cut test with not very thick paper. (200g it says on package... if that means something)

post-2251-0-25412600-1439045632_thumb.jp

 

Edit: If you are gonna make a lot of the same shapes, perhaps a simple cutter-press-machine is useful? Like a dough-cutter under a big press with large lever.

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That tile was meant to remain together :)

But thanks for showing.

O well, at least you now know how hard it is to get it working properly.

And having cut those hexagons, I think you know now why I switched back to simple maps.

 

Ehm, do me a favour? And could you measure up the dimensions of one of those hexagons? Is it exactly 4 cm for you as well?

 

The error that you get with cutting. It is called the bleeding zone. Most board games are printed as one big map. Then you only have 4 or 6 sides that bleed.

Even with professionals it goes wrong. Please take a look at this board and notice the difference in the red lines around the board.

parker_brothers_sorry_slide_pursuit_game

Yes, it is an official. But by the looks of it, they only screwed up some tests. But this proves that manual cutting is often better.

 

200 grams/m² means a lot to me. it is 2,5 times as heavy as normal paper. I am going to stop by to a shop in my town next week. To see if they have cardboard that is very thick. I will be searching for something that is at least 400 grams/m². Since I am going to put pieces together.

Perhaps they also have some proper cutting tools.

 


 

Meanwhile, I discovered an easy and fast way of combining 2 pictures into 1 mix. I discovered it just by accident. And am currently redoing all the mix regions.

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It was 2,5 cm. I resized the image of the map to fit A5 (the size of my paper).  :happy:  4cm sounds like better size to handle and see all the details.  Bleeding zone is a good idea.

 

Making the maps simple just because it saves you some time in production is not the greatest design philosophy.

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Unfortunately, for having a good bleeding zone, you need to have simpler designs in your pieces/board/cards.

You see it every where, most extreme example: Settlers of Catan.

Not only a simple design, where 2 regions never fit together. They also have a bleeding zone. And to make matters worse, watch the shore lines. They are all shorelines without taking into regard, the corners. Google it and you see all the pictures showing these hexagons with... brown boarders. yuk.

 

I suck at being an artist. Even though you have seen previous stuff.

Ok. Another OLD piece that is mine.

post-2682-0-36055100-1439069862_thumb.gi

 

Clearly my art skills was top notch at that moment. (Comedy Show Laughter)

But maps like these are impractical for bigger pictures. You can't combine these at all to the ones that you already printed, for a bigger play field that is.

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post-2682-0-12409800-1439124619_thumb.gi

 

Each of these are normally about 1800 x 1650. And have much more detail. However, at first glance, do you think players can tell the difference? Or should I make an explicit manual for terrain?

 

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I'm afraid that if you want this game to go big (mass production), those bleeding zones are going to be needed. Why not work them into your during design now? 

 

To be honest, again :), I have not read enough to understand how your game exactly works, but in my board game experience a map that is random is more fun. This is because people who played the game before don't have an advantage by knowing the good spots. Keeps the game more fair.

 

I think it's a better idea to keep the terrain types (and so also colours) rather simple and low. Like just 4 or 5 colours/terrains. Too much will confuse starting players. Keep in mind that most people can only remember a few things in short memory. Dune 2000 also only has 4-5 terrain types (sand, wobbly sand, rock, spice and concrete (ignoring ice))

For the real game die-hards you can make expansions packs with more colours, terrain etc. I would suggest keeping the base game simple (but challenging of course) and use expansion packs to make it harder. Of course this completely depends on your focus group. I can imagine there are also board game players out there that love massive amount of rules, but they are a minority.

 

Edit: I'm also kinda a big fan of changing map during gameplay. Kinda like in Dune 2000 you can still discover new terrain during gameplay and so also ways to attack.

Perhaps in corporate an event card that makes the map bigger or smaller by removing or adding tiles.

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Well, I am not planning on mass producing stuff. This game is more or less for elite players that rather play a game for strategy than for graphics.

 

Why tiles?

I don't have the time nor the material to make a modular map where every hexagon is placed separately and stays in place. Therefore I decided on tiles with 19 hexagons. They still fit into each other. And I can make theme tiles (like a spire or a beach). Moreover, I needed to find a way to have altitude without trouble. Now, with a modular map, this could be done. But then again, I don't have the material for that.

 

Why 7 colours (28 including the mixes)

I used to have 5 colours. And I used to have it simple. However, I wanted to have maps where you need to cramp units through canyons and other choke-point terrain. Grass/Sand/Forest/Rocks/Water. With the rules in mind, I wanted to create places where only a few infantry would fit through. With the said rules back then, 900 was a minimum. I wanted to have at least 600 as minimum (if possible, even less)

These 5 also didn't give an complete picture. Ranging from 0 to 3600 in space and 0 to 6 accuracy. I needed to combine terrain in several stages. You have seen the crappy pictures where tree's could be turned on/off, just like rocks etc. And we started counting the rocks -.-

 

Now for having a complete set and 600 as minimum. I introduced Snow and Hard Ground. And by using altitude, I can even reduce the movement all down to 100.

 

I could go back to 5 colours though (I keep 7, but it won't be 28). There is a blue print on my computer to be using hexagons with sub hexagons. The sub hexagons also could offer ridge effects. But also a reduction in terrain. Then again, we would start counting. And accuracy is only by 1 to 6. The reason that I am not using these is because there is a lot of confusion for players. So I decided back then on having 1 hexagon to have 1 colour. And that 1 colour would be having a number of space and accuracy. For movement and altitude, ridges and numbers are used.

 

The following are some example tiles. Of course I am uncertain about some textures. But this gives you a general idea of the game map. These 3 can be combined in a sense.

 

post-2682-0-68209400-1439129818_thumb.gipost-2682-0-56872000-1439129821_thumb.gipost-2682-0-43507200-1439129824_thumb.gi

 

The Beach is part of a bigger map that fits nicely together. The other 2 are extreme examples, only to be used as a theme.

 

If you have skill with graphics. If you know of an easy way to make the ridges more natural, this would help me a lot. But I have yet not find such a way to make it "automatic". That sandy island was an attempt of mine. But clearly that didn't work.

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Automatically is kinda hard, but you could just use a 'rough' brush on the edges to clone or erase (depending on layers). There are some rough brushes in Gimp like, Acrylic, Charcoal and Sponge. Try different sizes and just erase (or clone other parts) on the edges. I tried this on some edges in the image below.

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Well, I have Gimp. But I have not really worked with it. It just so happened that I used it for that island. But it took me all day.

 

It has so many options. I lost track of where to look and how to use etc.

So, there is a tool that I can use by simply going over the sharp edge, and it blurs into each other?

I tried looking for the sponge, but it seems I am blind or something.

 


 

It's the FINGER!!! isn't it?

 

 

Well, I have tried some stuff. Need to keep doing stuff, but that is for tomorrow. Thanks, I hope there is something that I will like.

However, if it is time consuming. I might not even implement this.

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Yeah, for wiping. Apparently I needed to select a pink finger that wipes.

 


 

This evening, I will be printing 2 versions of my beach. Just to see how it looks like with the sharp edge method and the wobly method.

 

Instead of a sponge, it would be better if I use gimp with 7 layers, not just 2.

Is it possible to work with 7 layers? As if I add them like paint? I could even start with the sharp edge version and only work on the ridges.

 


 

This evening (now). Well, I printed 2 vesions of my beach, but also the spire and the canyon.

 

Canyon; doesn't look natural at all compared to the other 3. The sand is not Obvious. Somehow the printer screws up the dessert texture. (Also the water texture). Perhaps I should apply only 600 dpi instead of 1200 dpi. (On second print, nooo, that won't work)

 

Spire; looks cool. Even though the sharp edges are still sharp.

 

Beach; Sand and water textures are odd. Grass looks fine, but could be a tad bigger for detail (or a lighter print?). Rocks looks fine as well. I am starting to regret, not testing out these textures before hand just like the grass and forest. They lack detail for the small hexagons. Colour dept is also needed.

 

Beach with wobbly ridges; waste of time, waste of time. I doubt that it would get any better. I should stop spending time on these things. And let a true artist work on them. I will keep my tiles functional. I am already happy with most textures. I can keep the wobbly ridges in. But the functionality is not there. So I keep the sharp ones for the next line of work. After all, the real art should be done by an artist.

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I have decided to go with the wobbly edges any way.

Further, when the tiles have been coloured and I am happy with the tile. I remove the grey lines. They will dissappear completely.

 

I make a minimap first. A simple plan on colouring. During this plan I had to change the tiles from 19 to 27, whereas 2 will serve as doubles in the vertical placement of the lines. And 5 in the horizonal placement. This only for the planned maps.

But random maps are also possible.

The reason is that having a 19 hexagon tile map doesn't allow for symetric placement when making a big plan. I remember in the past that it didn't matter. But now it does since I create tiles instead of prints that are going to be pasted together.

The con is that I had to recreate all 28 textures again. But this was done within 30 minutes :) Wow, I remember when I needed 2 hours for just 1 texture.

 

I hope that I have one map ready for this weekend. Tommorow I need to do this in one go though. Luckily it is only a skirmish map with army units only.

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Ghehehe, reached a point where 600 and 1200 dpi show no difference any more in the printing.

 

Wobbly edges without the fine grey lines is a great sucess. Some hexagons with the same texture even look a bit different.

 

Lesson learned:

Don't cut paper when you are sweating.

 

The all regions tile shows the differences in all textures. The only 2 that look alike are the shoreline on the beach and the ice texture. The colour dept here is minimal and you can't tell the difference when the light outside is 30 minutes before sunset (Netherlands sunset).

These 2 textures aren't used yet together in one map. Perhaps a rule to them that they only occur in certain area's? Or should I add more of the "main" region to them? Meaning, one has more sand and the other has more snow. I think, I go with the latter.

The same problem is with other mixed regions. However, the tile with all of them can be used as a reference?

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Little update.

 

Which is which?

That question is one that we sometimes asked ourselves when watching the board.

We only had this with the mixed regions where the difference is sometimes very minimal.

Instead of 128/255 overlap I have applied 160/255 overlap for 6 mixed terrains.

We went drinking instead that evening.

 

You are right regarding regions, but I don't know how to do that with regions having less than 1200 space. It is already a shame that 600 is the minimum. A solution to that might change my course. We already know that adding numbers is waaaay to much work. And, I will not try things any more for colourblind people. It is a hobby game and not for distribution.

 

I want the oppinion of my cousin this friday evening.

It will be a play test with around 100 units for each player. And this time I want to add my new set of Event Cards.

There is no base building. But there will be the limit of 6 actions/round :). Including all the special moves.

 

Several tiles have been printed. But putting them together without sellotape makes them move around much more.

The combined map, facing worlds (2 tiles of the Spire). Wow, such a disaster :D. If you have Infantry only, the Snipers will always win when starting on top of the mountains. So a bigger map where the spawn points are out of range are required.

 

Even though I decided on having symbol units instead of designed unit pieces, having a colour under the pile, sure is annoying.

2 Solutions: 1; going back to own designed unit pieces. 2; keeping the symbols, but giving them colour instead. Resulting in having to print out 2 or 3 times the ammount. UghSigh. 1 sounds better then 2.

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  • 2 weeks later...

eat/work/eat/sleep/eat/work/eat/sleep/eat/work/eat/sleep etc. That has been my workweek last week and is my workweek until today. Not to mention, the little free time that I have was spend on Bloodbourne :) Which is a funny game since it is so difficult (but I grind, so meh :) )

 

However, I did have my playtest last friday. Well, to say that it was a test is not the correct word. It was an awesome game this time. Revamping the rules for an hour. 2 little skirmishes in combat. Then the bigger picture was at hand. We played for 5 hours in 1 game. 8 hours in total. And we sure had our beer with it.

 

Required adjustments:

- Terrain is still troubling visually. That is, the difference between some terrain needs adjustments. Ok then, Sand region, more YELLOWWW!!!.

And the ahem... C=hard ground. Yeah, !@#$ it, it will become concrete. That's right, a greyer region. In short, S-and and C-oncrete will be divided more in colour. And all terrain combined with sand and concrete will be more obvious too.

- Map segments, better to get 1 big map than combining tiles. However, the tile technique stays since it allows me for optimal use of paper (huray for that!!)

- Action points. I set those actions that costed 2, to 3. This because it would bring more balance. Then I thought, 6 might not be handy, so I increased this to 7 as basic.

 

post-2682-0-19220300-1440612570_thumb.pn

 

Battle report sumarized

 

Choice of units:

We decided on 4 different units for this round. Only 3 where actually used.

The basic rifle infantry and battle tank. Both range 2, speed 2 and 1 armor with 1 damage compared with 36 armor with 36 damage. Costs where 100 and 600.

The third unit that was used was the LMG infantry. Speed 1, Range 4, armor 1, durability 6/4 (150%), damage 1, number of bullets 3, accuracy 4/6 (67%=2 hits average). Costs 200.

The 4th unit was between the 2 other infantry units. But we didn't need them. I even forgot the numbers.

 

Extra starting rules:

No income, no production, 3600 to spend at the start. We decided to divide the units in the corners. Really a round that was supposed to go fast.

 

Our armies:

I bought first since I am the game designer: 3 squads of each 1 battle tank, 4 rifle infantry and 1 LMG infantry.

My cousin bought 4! battle tanks, 1 squad had 2 of them. The other 2 squads where exactly the same as mine.

 

The rounds:

My first thought was YES! Since I could start focussing on his 2 tanks.

 

We didn't know yet, but it would be a slow round since the regions didn't allow for much. Most allowed only 1200. And 3 regions only allowed 600. There has been some simple blocking. But this seems to be important when using low numbers. The roll of dice was often unlucky when needed. And both sides had mixed squads. Which is stupid, very stupid of me. Back to the stupid later.

To top it all off, we were constantly assaulting and retreating with action points. Which also reduces hits to 5/6th or even 25/36th.

 

The lowest chance that we had was 5/6 x 5/6 (his retreat with an extra speed) x 4/6  x 4/6 = 400/1296 = 31% or in other words. Combat speed was 3,24 times slower. And only 1 MLG soldier was shooting on his. It could have been 3 MLG soldiers, but noooo. I had them in 3 different squads. :( This was the stupid.

 

We used the first round for getting into position.

It already hit me, my LMG infantry where divided while I need them in one specialized group. Since they have range 4. However, I could still focus on his 2 battle tanks.

The fact that we only had infantry/anti infantry and tanks/anti tanks, makes the game about 2 times on average as slow.

I thought, no sweat, we have Event Cards. I can fire him in the back. Well. That still keeps the game about 2 times as slow. New lesson learned.

 

Since it was 1 battle tank against 2 with the squads. And further more, he got into a position where I could not really send in help from another squad. Well, my infantry where of no use, only fodder. For exactly 1 action point. His tanks managed to kill 1 infantry right in the start. Since that one infantry would block cannonballs and no longer. My tank would be dying as well now. After death, I could send in the other 2, 1 by 1. Eventually they both died in 1 action by my last battle tank. That was my luckiest shot.

Another one of him was already dead. But he had 1 full health tank while I had a damaged one. I sended in infantry for protecting my last battle tank. But he managed to kill enough infantry for his battle tank to get through. (Which was just 1 infantry unit)

 

The end result was that I completely died. I did 2 strategic failures. More unlucky rolls. AND my last 2 Event Cards where of no use.

The complete game only took 8 rounds though.

My endscore; 0%. My start was 1680 health and 1920 combat.

 

His remaining was one medium damaged tank. 57/108 health.

1 LMG infantry unit with full health.

5 rifle infantry units. 2 had only 1/3 health and 2 had 2/3 health.

His endscore:

Health; 318,3/1720=18,5%

Combat; 740/1880=39,4%

Average; 29,4%

 

He was 41% better. But this was only noticable in the last 3 rounds.

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