No same-sex hugs allowed

[Edric O]

We have deviated from the belief system that sex is for reproduction. But this train of thought that sex is solely for pleasure is only around 100 years old.

Actually, people have been having sex for pleasure since the beginning of our species. Reproduction was often just an unwanted side effect. This was as true in 1710 as in 2010. The only difference is that now, in 2010, we have reliable methods of preventing the side effect.

Couples only having one child.

Considering the fact that population growth is a serious problem, it is a good thing that we are having fewer children.

[ErasOmnius]

Don't even get me started on the topic of abortion!

[ErasOmnius]

Frank, you had it right. The character of the Baron says it all when it comes to the topic of this thread.

[Edric O]

Don't even get me started on the topic of abortion!

I was not talking about abortion. Abortion is actually a very old practice. I was talking about modern inventions, like condoms or the contraceptive pill. You are aware of their existence, I assume?

[ErasOmnius]

I think that the philosophy of sex almost solely as a recreational activity, and that belief being nation-state wide is a newer concept. It seems that the belief system of Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood, Int'l, which she extensively wrote about in the 1920s has succeeded beyond her wildest dreams.

In a supra-national state [such as the EU, or the USA], or any culture, it takes well-raised, hard-working, tax-paying people; to support the elderly and the truly infirmed. As the Birth Rate plummets in North America and Europe, it is becoming harder and harder to maintain the standard of living for everyone, as people age and retire out of the workforce.

If couples had 3-5 children as has occurred in the past; and the children were raised with healthy, productive outlooks, then our aging populations could be sustained.

As it is now, countries like Greece, Italy, Spain, the UK, the US, are running record deficits trying to keep the standard of licing up for the elderly.

[Caid Ivik]

Actually, people have been having sex for pleasure since the beginning of our species. Reproduction was often just an unwanted side effect. This was as true in 1710 as in 2010. The only difference is that now, in 2010, we have reliable methods of preventing the side effect.

The ancients didn't ever seem to mention the "side effect" - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3001.htm

[MrFlibble]

modern inventions, like condoms

The invention itself isn't that modern at all.

The ancients didn't ever seem to mention the "side effect" - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3001.htm

I've heard there's still a tribal culture somewhere whose members are completely oblivious to the real cause of pregnancy. Don't know if it's true or not, but anyway.

[Edric O]

I think that the philosophy of sex almost solely as a recreational activity, and that belief being nation-state wide is a newer concept.

Ok, fair enough. People have always had sex for fun, but it's only recently that popular culture began talking about sex as a recreational activity. It used to be more hidden in the past.

If couples had 3-5 children as has occurred in the past; and the children were raised with healthy, productive outlooks, then our aging populations could be sustained.

If it takes ever-increasing numbers of young workers to support the elderly, that is absolutely not sustainable. It's a pyramid scheme, and a disaster waiting to happen.

Sooner or later, population growth must end. It might as well be sooner. We just have to adapt to a society with a constant (rather than growing) number of people. This means raising the retirement age, and expecting young people - especially rich young people - to pay more money than before in order to support the elderly.

As it is now, countries like Greece, Italy, Spain, the UK, the US, are running record deficits trying to keep the standard of living up for the elderly.

No, they are running record deficits because they stupidly insist on keeping taxes so low. If they raised taxes, they could pay their deficits and the problem would be solved.

The invention itself isn't that modern at all.

Heh. Leave it to Wikipedia to have a long article about the history of condoms. ;D But yes, you're right, condoms as such are not a modern invention. But it was only in modern times that we got reliable and widely available condoms.

[chatfsh]

Consuming food may also be done for pleasure, but it doesn't change the fact that the primary purpose of eating is for the nourishment of our bodies so that we might continue living. Sure,  something as natural as eating can be abused or perverted into something unnatural but even that fact does not alter the fundamental and natural purpose of eating.

[SandChigger]

The same can of course be said for the other end of the process. And that does nothing to change the fact that the primary purpose of defecation is the purging of our bodies (God's Holy Temple in Flesh!) of waste so that we might continue doing the Lord's work here on Earth! (Things like worrying about what the couple next door was doing the other night...was that really a goat they had in there with them?! Think of the children! ... I mean the child, since there's only one of them now ... that might be adversely influenced by exposure to such deviancy! The couple's existing human child, of course. People can't have children with goats!) Sure, something as natural and necessary as pooping (Everybody does it...there's even a Japanese children's book to that effect! And if we didn't, we'd explode before age one!) can be abused or perverted into something unnatural and quite pleasurable, but even that wonderful fact does not alter the fundamental and natural purpose of voiding the bowels! The Lord moves in mysterious (and often quite pungent!) ways. Praise Jesus and pass me some paper!

[athanasios]

No, they are running record deficits because they stupidly insist on keeping taxes so low. If they raised taxes, they could pay their deficits and the problem would be solved.

Stupidity is believing and adopting solutions like the above, unless it is done intentionally. No we never had an economic crisis in Greece. It is all fake, made-up. We are one of the richest countries in the world. Of course low birth rate will cause us trouble in the near future, and the government is taking measures to worsen that.

The man of lawlessness is around. Beware brothers because the end of the days has arrived.

[SandChigger]

Beware brothers because the end of the days has arrived.

But sisters (especially twisted ones!), as you were! :D

Yeah yeah yeah, here come da Butt of Time! Someone's been tooting that pooter for twenty centuries now. ::)

[Edric O]

Stupidity is believing and adopting solutions like the above...

Well, actually, in the case of Greece, the best solution is to simply default on the debt, eurozone be damned.

But do you mind explaining what were your actual objections to my earlier statement, other than the fact that the end is near due to a chronic lack of babies?

[ErasOmnius]

Well, actually, in the case of Greece, the best solution is to simply default on the debt, eurozone be damned.

But do you mind explaining what were your actual objections to my earlier statement, other than the fact that the end is near due to a chronic lack of babies?

Countries that are in severe debt crisis cannot simply default on their bond loans -- because then no bank, credit, or governmental agency would loan them any money.

If no entity loans them any money, then each country would have to balance its' budget -- immediately! The so-called good, 'enlightened' citizens of the West would never allow that.

The end is near -- and the baby shortage is just a symptom of that. It takes productive, producing people to sustain a culture -- and this simply no longer exists in the West. Hiding behind the veil of environmentalism, we have become a such a hedonistic society that is so selfish that the idea of simply reproducing ourselves, is repugnant.

More over-concerned with our unusual desires for free sex, rampant alcoholism, and dabblings in drugs -- we have become a lounging people.

Not only do we not save for the future, but order our politicians to borrow heavily into our children's lives in the form of deficits.

If there is one thing that history has shown us, is that same sex sexual hugs are the last stop for a culture.

[MrFlibble]

If there is one thing that history has shown us, is that same sex sexual hugs are the last stop for a culture.

Yeah. If it were not for them, the mighty civilizations of Ancient Greece and Rome would have been still standing by now, eh? ::)

[Dante]

I have to admit, I'm curious to see if this one can be justified (in his head at least) or if it's just a statement without even the support of a lie.

[Edric O]

Countries that are in severe debt crisis cannot simply default on their bond loans -- because then no bank, credit, or governmental agency would loan them any money.

For a few years, yes. Then they would get over it and start lending again. After all, a country that has just defaulted is a country with zero debt, so there is no risk of them having to default again any time soon.

If no entity loans them any money, then each country would have to balance its' budget -- immediately! The so-called good, 'enlightened' citizens of the West would never allow that.

Actually, interest payments on the national debt are a huge part of public expenses in most countries. For example, nearly 20% of all government spending in the US goes to pay the interest on the national debt - and I expect the proportion to be even higher in Greece. In other words, defaulting on the debt would be equivalent to a massive cut in government spending. Which would make it very easy to balance the budget afterwards.

Yes, there are big downsides to defaulting. But once your debt gets to be as large as that of Greece, the downsides of defaulting are not as bad as the downsides of actually paying the debt. So you should default.

[ErasOmnius]

Yeah. If it were not for them, the mighty civilizations of Ancient Greece and Rome would have been still standing by now, eh? ::)

Well, to start, the Eastern Roman Empire lasted well into the theirteenth century as a strong entity. The peoples and citizen groups of the Byzantine Empire had one of the highest birth rates of the Early Middle Ages, and were able to sustain themselves. They were only 'done in' by a group of people who had a higher birth rate than they did -- the Moslem Turks.

The West is living on borrowed time -- and borrowed bonds [to the combined tune of 26 trillion dollars] -- because we simply cannot reproduce ourselves. Can't fund our health care, can't fund our pension programs, can't fund our state-run disability programs, etc.

Serious stuff, this is.

[This isn't exactly debating whether or not KJA should have had Paul Atreides participate in the War on Grumman, is it?]

[ErasOmnius]

For a few years, yes. Then they would get over it and start lending again. After all, a country that has just defaulted is a country with zero debt, so there is no risk of them having to default again any time soon.

Actually, interest payments on the national debt are a huge part of public expenses in most countries. For example, nearly 20% of all government spending in the US goes to pay the interest on the national debt - and I expect the proportion to be even higher in Greece. In other words, defaulting on the debt would be equivalent to a massive cut in government spending. Which would make it very easy to balance the budget afterwards.

Yes, there are big downsides to defaulting. But once your debt gets to be as large as that of Greece, the downsides of defaulting are not as bad as the downsides of actually paying the debt. So you should default.

But immediately...immediately. The Budget would have to be balanced...or the currency devalued.

The US has not had a balanced budget in over 10 years.

13 trillion dollars we owe to bondholders. 2 trillion to the Chinese government alone. 2 trillion to the Japanese. Do you think that China and Japan are just going to sit there while half of their profits, their savings, from the last 20 years, just evaporates?

That money that China bought those bonds with, it represents the hopes and dreams of countless Asian families. Instead of investing that money in their own countries -- they bought our government bonds!

When that day comes, look for some sort of EastAsian Union to be born, and China and Japan will not be happy.

[Dante]

How did we get from same-sex hugs to the downfall of western civilisation?

Oh, right, silly of me to ask. But seriously, saying that western civilisation is declining implies that it used to be better. When was it better, exactly? 1900? 1950? I can think of some rather convincing reasons why not.

And though I realise we've wandered off topic a bit, I feel this bears repeating for those who might not have considered it thus before: Being gay is not like being a dancer or a blacksmith. It's not something you do, it's something you are. Food for thought. I hope it is well digested.

[Wolf]

Well, to start, the Eastern Roman Empire lasted well into the theirteenth century as a strong entity. The peoples and citizen groups of the Byzantine Empire had one of the highest birth rates of the Early Middle Ages, and were able to sustain themselves. They were only 'done in' by a group of people who had a higher birth rate than they did -- the Moslem Turks.

I disagree... the final nail in the coffin of the Byzantine Empire came with the sack of 1204. They had only the barest of control over Asia Minor, having had already lost the territory to Easterners as far back as 1100, and battle constantly for dominion over those provinces. But with the destruction of the capital by Western Crusaders, the Byzantine Empire as a functioning state ceased to exist, and never really commanded any power or authority in the Balkans or the Med ever again.

EDIT: And what the hell, this was in the "same-sex hugs" thread? Isn't this the most ridiculous topic ever started? Who here reasonably thinks its inappropriate for one to hug one's good friend or sibling of the same sex? If we're going to debate the absurd point "gay sex destroys nations," let's at least be honest about it.

Oh, and as for this gem:

The West is living on borrowed time -- and borrowed bonds [to the combined tune of 26 trillion dollars] -- because we simply cannot reproduce ourselves. Can't fund our health care, can't fund our pension programs, can't fund our state-run disability programs, etc.

Norway, a country with less than 1/60 the population and slightly more than 1/48 the GDP of the United States, can fully fund education through graduate school as well as universal health care for all citizens. Fact. It's not that we can't do it, it's that we refuse to do it: spending the money frivolously on random projects and losing huge overheads to governmental waste. I don't think it's the people that are the problem...

[athanasios]

Increasing taxes is the coffin of the family. No! Greece does not need to borrow money from any b****, and can cut its own money-as much as needed. If Europe wants to follow, it is good for them, if not they will regret it. The present government/political system will not do this, but soon it will be flashed. And gone will be the 'economic crisis' scheme in a snap.

[Anathema]

ErasOmnius, despite what you seem to think, people have engaged in homosexual acts for most of human history. It was entirely due to christianity that homosexuals were shunned, before that the attitudes toward it were generally tolerant or at worst ambiguous.

And secondly, despite what you seem to think unwanted pregnancy is a thing of all ages too. New contraceptives have changed things somewhat, but if you think that every child before the 20th century was a the result of a conscious choice to engage in reproductive activity, well.... ::)

And thirdly, if we take "homosexual" to mean people who exclusively engage in sexual activity with partners of their own gender, it's been established and widely accepted among biologists and neurologists that sexual preference is deterministic (not necessarily genetically, but because of conditions in the womb during the growth of the fetus) and it has nothing to do with changing attitutdes towards sex.

Fourthly, the idea that the Byzantine empire fell because the Turks had more babies  is incredibly stupid.

Well, actually, in the case of Greece, the best solution is to simply default on the debt, eurozone be damned.

The best solution for Greece would be to (perhaps) raise some taxes and cut costs, especially on their bloated defense spending. They have this awkward idea that they absolutely have to be prepared for a war with Turkey, but even with the current state of their militairy they wouldn

[chatfsh]

ErasOmnius, despite what you seem to think, people have engaged in homosexual acts for most of human history. It was entirely due to christianity that homosexuals were shunned...

Wrong.  I believe that this little gem is part of the Jewish Torah:

[Wolf]

Just because the prohibition appeared in scripture does not necessarily mean that classical Judaic society was intolerant of homosexuality. Because most Catholics don't have hamburgers on Friday and Muslims never, ever drink, right? And China is still a state fully practicing Marxism-Leninism? I'm sure classical Jews also murdered their brothers for failing to avoid planting different crops in the same plot.