Interstellar travel before the melange

[Aldebaran]

So far I know that in the era of Dune the melange is vital for space travel. It's actually the fuel of the highliners as the navigators are using it to fold space, and it is often mentioned that without it there would be no space travel.

But which was the way of interstellar travel before the melange was discovered?

Since Arrakis is the only place of the Universe that has melange deposits, melange couldn't be known before its colonization.

[Dante]

Melange wasn't a fuel per se, it was a tool that allowed safe use of Holtzmann engines. The engines could be used without navigation, but it would be fraught with peril. The very earliest space transport, as far as I remember, was simply very time-consuming and didn't involve folding space at all.

[MrFlibble]

So far I know that in the era of Dune the melange is vital for space travel. It's actually the fuel of the highliners as the navigators are using it to fold space, and it is often mentioned that without it there would be no space travel.

This is a misconception popularized by the Lynch movie and the Dune games. As Dante pointed out, the Holzmann engines were used to fold space.

Pre-foldspace space travel supposedly involved engines that propelled the craft forward akin to how it is accomplished nowadays, although I don't remember if there are any specifics in the books regarding the pre-foldspace era (expect mentioning the Ampoliros).

[Aldebaran]

Thank you for your replies, as it looks like there is no clear reference about the pre-foldspace way of travel.

The reason I asked is that I found it extremely difficult to colonize extrasolar planets with a conventional way of travel, and many worlds were already colonized before Holzmann engines or the melange were founded.

[SandChigger]

From <i>Dune</i>, Appendix II: The Religion of Dune:

...early space travel, although widespread, was largely unregulated, slow, and uncertain, and, before the Guild monopoly, was accomplished by a hodgepodge of methods.

FH provided no clearer explanation than this. He neither admitted nor ruled out FTL. (I personally prefer to rule it out.)

We know from this same Appendix (if we accept its accuracy) that the Landsraad was established sometime around 2,000 years before the Butlerian Jihad. We also know that there were only a little over 13,000 worlds represented in that organization following the Jihad and the anti-ecumenical riots during the C.E.T. period.

I interpret this to mean that there was a long diaspora period (something like 7,000~9,000 years, perhaps) of slow expansion followed by 2,000~4,000 years of more rapid expansion after a consolidation period (leading to the first empire and eventual development of the Landsraad) following the discovery of a much more efficient means of travel, most likely space-folding or some more "conventional" FTL method. To me this seems like one way of explaining why there aren't more planets settled after 11,000 years of interstellar travel.

There is no clear statement in the originals concerning when Holtzmann lived or who actually discovered/invented space-folding and when, nor anything explicitly stating that the Guild was the first to use it, although the quote above would seem to preclude a "fast method" like space-folding before the Guild monopoly. (Norma Cenva is only described by Leto II as having designed the first Guildship, remember. That need not mean the first foldship.)

So, in answer to the question of how humankind travelled before m

[Aldebaran]

From <i>Dune</i>, Appendix II: The Religion of Dune:

FH provided no clearer explanation than this. He neither admitted nor ruled out FTL. (I personally prefer to rule it out.)

We know from this same Appendix (if we accept its accuracy) that the Landsraad was established sometime around 2,000 years before the Butlerian Jihad. We also know that there were only a little over 13,000 worlds represented in that organization following the Jihad and the anti-ecumenical riots during the C.E.T. period.

I interpret this to mean that there was a long diaspora period (something like 7,000~9,000 years, perhaps) of slow expansion followed by 2,000~4,000 years of more rapid expansion after a consolidation period (leading to the first empire and eventual development of the Landsraad) following the discovery of a much more efficient means of travel, most likely space-folding or some more "conventional" FTL method. To me this seems like one way of explaining why there aren't more planets settled after 11,000 years of interstellar travel.

There is no clear statement in the originals concerning when Holtzmann lived or who actually discovered/invented space-folding and when, nor anything explicitly stating that the Guild was the first to use it, although the quote above would seem to preclude a "fast method" like space-folding before the Guild monopoly. (Norma Cenva is only described by Leto II as having designed the first Guildship, remember. That need not mean the first foldship.)

So, in answer to the question of how humankind travelled before m

[SandChigger]

As for when Holtzmann lived, if I remember well it was mentioned in Dune Encyclopedia and it was after the Empire of a thousand worlds.

It also says Holtzmann was a cyborg who flew by every few millennia on an asteroid (or satellite? I forget) until the Butlerians blasted him.

<i>The Dune Encyclopedia</i> has some interesting things scattered through it but it wasn't written by Frank Herbert and it's not canon. It was written before the last two Dune books were published and also contradicts details from the first three. (No pre-Jihad empire, sandworms native to Arrakis, etc.)

[TMA_1]

Personally, I always felt that there had to be some sort of pre jihad foldspace travel. They had thinking machines capable of some sort of prescience, and it just makes the most sense, at least to me.

Even if you are talking about ships that go near half the speed of light... It would take years to gain the safe momentum in order to attain those kinds of speeds, and it again would take years for ships to slow themselves down without the crew being terribly effected by the forces inside these ships. To get past this, they would need some sort of g-force dampeners, for teh sake of the crew.

Even at high near-light-speed travel, it would still take years upon years to get from one star system to another. At these kinds of speeds, the empire would only be one in name only, with pockets of star systems holding individual autonomy amongst themselves. It does not seem to indicate this kind of existance in the dune prequels (though does indicate this kind of existance in the DE).

 

[Anathema]

From the sparse details mentioned in the appendix, it's clear that FH didn't think it was very important to the story.

In Isaac Asimov's Foundation universe, space travel is done by so called "hyperspace jumps" wich become unpredictable when done over long distances or if a great gravitational force is near (i.e. planets or other massive objects) so jumps have to be short, and after a jump a ship would have to travel a considerable time towards its actual destination with sub-light engines because it would be dangerous to "jump out" near a planetary mass.

Like Sandchigger I'd prefer to leave out faster-than-light travel. I imagine that pre-guild space travel was also done by folding space but that it was unpredictable and less efficient for the same reasons that plague space travel in the Foundation books.

They had thinking machines capable of some sort of prescience' date=' and it just makes the most sense, at least to me.[/quote']

That would mean that this technology was lost during the Jihad, and reinvented by the Ixians at the end of LetoII's reign. If these devices had existed before, it would be odd that none of the characters mention this anywhere.

[MrFlibble]

That would mean that this technology was lost during the Jihad, and reinvented by the Ixians at the end of LetoII's reign.

This sounds suspiciously like the "All of this had already happened before" plot device much loved by KJA that is supposed to make the readers go "What a twist!"

[Wolf]

I like to think that it just took a long, long time to get anywhere, and when you got there, you were with a whole different group of people than when you started--provided you even survived. Wild west-style, or early Medieval, take your pick.

[TMA_1]

The Ixians were refugees from the pogroms that killed all of the programmites... I dont believe they the navigation machines LetoII mentioned near the end of GEOD were newly invented.

[MrFlibble]

The Ixians were refugees from the pogroms that killed all of the programmites...

I don't remember that. Where is it mentioned? ???

[SandChigger]

Ditto. ???

There's mention of Ix and Richese escaping the worst ravages of the Butlerian Jihad thanks to their being on the periphery of things, but I don't remember anything about refugees, either. :(

And I believe the INMs supposedly involved some form of machine simulation of human prescience. ??? I assume the pre-Jihad ones would not have....

[TMA_1]

It mentions in the books that the ixians were refugees from the jihad, and the DE lists the sect that controlled said machines as programmites, probably a pejorative term created by the jihadists.

[SandChigger]

It mentions in the books that the ixians were refugees from the jihad, and the DE lists the sect that controlled said machines as programmites, probably a pejorative term created by the jihadists.

Hmm. I always took this

(<i>Dune</i> T:R8) RICHESE: fourth planet of Eridani A, classed with Ix as supreme in machine culture. Noted for miniaturization. (For a detailed study on how Richese and lx escaped the more severe effects of the Butlerian Jihad, see <i>The Last Jihad</i> by Sumer and Kautman.)

to indicate that Ix and Richese existed from before the time of the Jihad....

[TMA_1]

exactly, they survived the pogroms! The elite of the known universe would not allow all of the greatest technological minds to be murdered by religious lunatics. The jihad was much more of a controlled revolution than I think many realize.

[1winter]

If you look to the books that Herberts son and Kevin Anderson wrote... you will find all your answers.. It just took a long.. long... time.. It was a big problem when they fought the machines.. in fact it was Norma who made the Holtzman drive (that doesn't run on spice).  The spice is for the navigators. They live off it, and it allows them to see briefly into the future so they don't hit a planet or something.. Anyway .. all of your questions and then some are in the books.. I they are supposedly wrote from outlines left behind by Frank..

The asteroid was a cymek defector and not Tio Holtzmen .. who was a hack that used slaves to make his calculations..Slaves that became the Fremen.. 

[SandChigger]

What books are those? They sound really interesting! :)

[ErasOmnius]

What books are those? They sound really interesting! :)

Go easy on him.

Hey! Let's talk about Honored Matres!! That's a concept that doesn't need refining!

[Dante]

The prequels are dumb. That's the prevailing opinion around here.

As for the Honoured Matres, I'm not sure it's fair to poke holes in a faction that was due to get its big explanation in Dune 7. An explanation that never came, I might point out.

[Edric O]

I like to think that it just took a long, long time to get anywhere, and when you got there, you were with a whole different group of people than when you started--provided you even survived. Wild west-style, or early Medieval, take your pick.

But, as TMA pointed out, if it takes years to get from one system to another, it's virtually impossible to have any kind of interstellar political entity. If there was no pre-Guild FTL, then there could not be any pre-Guild Empire.

Unless it was an "Empire" in the same vein as the Holy Roman Empire...

[Mahdi]

But, as TMA pointed out, if it takes years to get from one system to another, it's virtually impossible to have any kind of interstellar political entity. If there was no pre-Guild FTL, then there could not be any pre-Guild Empire.

Unless it was an "Empire" in the same vein as the Holy Roman Empire...

Lets not forget that it is clearly stated that the Bene Gesserit used drugs other than Melange to cause their... transition into Reverend Mothers for a very, very, very long time.  It was only after the discovery of Melange that these other drugs fell out of favour.  I'd assume that the guild also would have used these same drugs.

[Edric O]

Lets not forget that it is clearly stated that the Bene Gesserit used drugs other than Melange to cause their... transition into Reverend Mothers for a very, very, very long time. It was only after the discovery of Melange that these other drugs fell out of favour.  I'd assume that the guild also would have used these same drugs.

But if such substitutes exist, then why is Melange so vital for space travel?

[ErasOmnius]

The prequels are dumb. That's the prevailing opinion around here.

As for the Honoured Matres, I'm not sure it's fair to poke holes in a faction that was due to get its big explanation in Dune 7. An explanation that never came, I might point out.

Yes, I know. I know. Long ago in 1987, I have been debating the Honored Matres.

I don't believe the Matres were going to get their BIG EXPLAIN-O. It seems from the evidence culled that the Matres were the anti-democracy Women, and the Bene Gesserit were the pro-democracy Women. Leading up to Frank's big pro-democracy ta-dah at the end of Dune 7.

I'm sad that we never got a chance to see it.

But I like the way Brian Herbert explains in his Dune 7 [sandworms], the Universe picking plain Duncan Idaho as the Biggee One, instead of the perfect Greek/Italian/Finn family of one of the Atreides.