Dunenewt Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 Was it Farad'n, Hasimir Fenring, Leto II, or someone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard3000 Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 I believe it was Farad'n Corrino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 20, 2008 Author Share Posted May 20, 2008 There was no definite answer, although Farad'n was the most likely suspect. I was just going on what the DE had on the topic when I mentioned the possibles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard3000 Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 Well, Ghanima and Farad'n were to continue the Atreides (and, to a lesser extent, Corrino) line, and Farad'n especially was given the task of recording history, much like his aunt, Irulan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 20, 2008 Author Share Posted May 20, 2008 Yes, I guess it does make sense. According to the DE, the Harq al-Harba was 'born' in 10246, by which I guess they mention the first mention of him.Here's what we're on about for those who don't know:Born Yorba (Cygni Alpha-3)10246, died Fides (Luytens-2) 10317;married Vela Cinoli 10286(7), fourchildren. The "Dramatist Laureate" ofthe Atreidean period.In a period noted for the richnessand variety of its dramaticaccomplishments, Harq al-Harba wascounted among the first rank ofplaywrights of his day. Since his death,his reputation has grown and today heis recognized as the absolute master ofhis time. Prior to the discovery of theRakis Hoard, his plays were the bestknown account of the turbulent erafrom 10150 to 10219.Here's the part on the question of his identity:If Harq al-Harba the playwrighthad not been such a supremeembodiment of the dramatist's art, ifwhat we know of the biography ofHarq al-Harba the minifilm salesmanhad not been so little, and if what wedo know had not seemed at odds withthe qualities we associate with genius,there probably would never have beenan al-Harba Question. Other humblepeople have risen to greatness, andeven less is known about some of thegreat Atreideans than is known aboutthe Yorban dramatist. But the interplayof these three factors was certainsooner or later to lead astray mindswith a peculiar cast of thought. How,they asked, could the salesman and thepoet have been the same man?It was not until 10630, more thanthree hundred years after al-Harba'sdeath, that anyone challenged hisauthorship of the plays that bore hisname. The controversy began withAvelarad Svif-Josif, a minor noble ofHouse Rembo, who expressed doubtsthat a salesman could have possessedthe ability to write the plays credited tohim. This reservation was expounded atlength by Kurt Zhuurazh, who asserted,in his Al-Ada and al-Harba (10635)that Harq al-Ada (Farad'n Corrino) wasthe true author of the plays. Admirersof the Royal Scribe have attributedvarious other Atreidean works to him,and the most liberal adherents of thetheory credit him with (besides al-Harba's plays) Pander Oulson's St.Alia: Huntress of a Billion Worlds,Duncan Idaho's The 'Ghola Speaks andThe Hayt Chronicle, and all the worksof Princess Irulan; to this considerabletotal, Cybele Harik (The Prince/ThePlaywright) adds the authorizedtranslation of the O.C. Bible and evenStilgar's Chronicle in Fremen.Thirty years passed (10666)before another contender wasproposed: J. T. Duub nominated CountHasimir Fenring in Half-a-DozenHarbas. Duub's chief obstacle wasFenring's death in 10225, twenty-oneyears before Harq al-Harba was born,but as we shall see, this proved noinsuperable obstacle to Fenring'sproponents.A third powerful contingententered the field in 10710, when A. J.Kiilwan claimed (in The Man WhoWas al-Harba) that the plays wereactually written by the emperor Leto II. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahdi Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 Doesn't it say in CoD and GEOD that it is Farad'n's Fremen name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 20, 2008 Author Share Posted May 20, 2008 He is given a very similar name, good spot."What will be the outcome of your peace?""It's opposite' date='" Leto said, his voice calmly mocking.Farad'n shook his head. "I find the price for my Sardaukar very high. Must Iremain Scribe, the secret father of your royal line?""You must.""Will you try to force me into your habit of peace?""I will.""I'll resist you every day of my life.""But that's the function I expect of you, cousin. It's why I chose you. I'llmake it official. I will give you a new name. From this moment, you'll be calledBreaking of the Habit, which in our tongue is Harq al-Ada. Come, cousin, don'tbe obtuse. My mother taught you well. Give me your Sardaukar."[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFlibble Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 This is kinda misleading. Harq al-Ada is Farad'n's name, while Harq al-Harba is a completely different personality. The only thing they have in common is their Arabic names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 It is possible that over the years, the name was corrupted, to become Harq al-Harba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFlibble Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 As a linguist, I find Harq al-Ada becoming Harq al-Harba highly improbable. Besides, I believe al-Harba's bound to mean something in Arabic, but my knowledge of that language is insufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 I myself am also a linguist, and words are prone to change, especially over that amount of time, although as such an important figure, I'd expect it wouldn't change, I was just throwing around possibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahdi Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 I was simply speaking from memory, thinking that Farad'ns Fremen name was something like that. I've never read the DE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard3000 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 That's actualyl the name I was thinking of. In the case, I have no idea who the hell Harq al-Harba is. I suppose he was just a dude. Maybe it was Leto himself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandChigger Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 As the third linguist to weigh in, I side with MrFlibble: the proposed change would be extremely unnatural.You may find this of interest:Yet what would be the source of all of this information? I first contemplated creating an Atreidean Archive and Library on Caladan, and in fact told FH on the phone that I would handle it that way. He told me then that I need not worry - that Dune 4 included a mechanism - the No room as it turned out - which could be used by all contributors as a source. I was concerned about timing, but the almost immediate publication of "God Emperor of Dune" not only solved the "source" problem, but enabled other contributors to write entries from that book. I also encouraged contributors to suggest topics which I might have overlooked or which seemed sensible to them. And from their suggestions came such truly original materials as the literature, music, and poetry of the Imperium; <b>the Shakespeare (we called him "Harq al Harba", which is Arabic for Shakespeare) of the Imperium</b>; Fremen (Frewomen?) menstruation, and so on. I let the writers have free rein, and they most amply repaid me for it. Material in GED, for example, gave one writer the notion that brief bios of the various Duncan Idahos might be interesting; another suggested that the Great Houses had insignia - and that they might be illustrated; still another took the relatively undeveloped notion of the Dune Tarot, and wanted to expand it - again with illustrations.http://www.thestargates.com/dune/willis5.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandChigger Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Follow up:It appears <i>harq</i> means "burn"; and <i>harb</i> may mean "war".My copy of Wehr is at home, so if anything more interesting turns up later I'll let y'all know. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFlibble Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I myself am also a linguist, and words are prone to change, especially over that amount of time.Arabic words have a specific (from the Indo-European point of view) feature that the lexical meaning is expressed by the consonants (usually three of them), while grammatical meanings are conveyed by the vowels. The change from al-Ada to al-Harba would mean the change of root (I guess it'd be something like 'D for al-Ada and HRB for al-Harba), and, consequently, the whole semantics of the word. This is completely different from any phonetical/phonological processes in Indo-European languages where both vowels and consonants of a root/lexical stem can undergo significant changes over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 Yes, I've studied Arabic too, but if something was passed solely by word of mouth, then it is not unbelievable that such a change would occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I remember the name Harq al-Ada (Farad'n), but not the other one. To whom are the little bits of text attributed to in CoD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 What bits of text? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 The epigraphs preceding some of the chapters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypatia Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I think it's safe to say that Harq al-Ada (Farad'n) and Harq al-Harba (?) were not the same individuals. I also doubt that one name was corrupted into another.My reasoning is that Leto would not waste the talents of anyone capable of setting down whatever histories, stories, and dramas he might want to preserve. And even if Farad'n was the original author, I see this as a Shakespeare vs. Bacon -- who wrote which plays/poems? sort of issue. It could be a case of mistaken identity, plagiarism, or perhaps Leto himself decided to hide Farad'n's authorship of certain works behind another individual's name/identity (for whatever hypothetical reason).This is one of the interstitial mysteries of the Dune books that we will likely never solve, unless somebody wants to tackle the issue in a fanfic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 I know its quite unlikely, but I quite like the idea of Hasimir being the HaH, as he was such an interesting character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypatia Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I don't recall if Fenring was said to have literary or dramatic talents, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 No, I'm getting the information from the Dune Encyclopedia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandChigger Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 What bits of text? :OThere are 21 epigraph attributions in <i>Children</i>:-Riddles of Arrakis by Harq al-Ada-Lectures on Prescience by Harq al-Ada-Leto's Vow, After Harq al-Ada-The Leto Commentary, After Harq al-Ada-Testament of Arrakis by Harq al-Ada-The Book of Leto, After Harq al-Ada-The Book of Leto, After Harq al-Ada-Words of an ancient philosopher (Attributed by Harq al-Ada to one Louis Veuillot)-Leto II to His Memory-Lives, After Harq al-Ada-The Dune Catastrophe, After Harq al-Ada-The Words of My Father: an account of Muad'Dib reconstructed by Harq al-Ada-The Dune Catastrophe, After Harq al-Ada-Arrakis, the Transformation, After Harq al-Ada-The Story of Liet-Kynes by Harq al-Ada-The Arrakeen Catastrophe, After Harq al-Ada-The Holy Metamorphosis, by Harq al-Ada-The Mahdinate, An Analysis by Harq al-Ada-The Preacher at Arrakeen, After Harq al-Ada-The Prescient Vision, by Harq al-Ada-Leto Atreides II, The Harq al-Ada Biography-The Butlerian Jihad, by Harq al-AdaThe name appears only two other times in <i>Children</i>, and six times in <i>God Emperor</i>. Harq al-Harba, naturally, appears not at all. (And therefore never was.)It makes sense that Farad'n took up the pen. Besides dreaming of insurrection and lost glory and getting Ghani with child, what else did he have to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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