Abortion debate!

[Dante]

This topic was only resurrected to troll non-conservatives. That says more to me than any arguments put forth so far.

[SandChigger]

My wife is always asking me, "Let's play Rummy. Let's play Tripoley. Let's play Canasta." I hate playing Rummy, Tripoley, and Canasta.

She ever ask you to play doctor? ;)

[athanasios]

::)

No, this is not a game for me. ;)

[MrFlibble]

There is no greater 'teller' of who we are as human beings, than our sexual behavior.

Oh really? I've always thought that our mental, cognitive capacities are generally telling of who we are as humans. The attitude towards other human beings also seems important. Our sexual behaviour, on the other hand, is not very much different from that of other Hominidae.

[ErasOmnius]

She ever ask you to play doctor? ;)

I do have 4 kids, [and they look like me].

;D

[MrFlibble]

I do have 4 kids, [and they look like me].

;D

I kinda expected a reply to my comment. Why do you believe sexual behaviour is the most demonstrative thing when it comes to humanity?

[ErasOmnius]

I kinda expected a reply to my comment. Why do you believe sexual behaviour is the most demonstrative thing when it comes to humanity?

Believe it defines who we are, and what we really believe of the future.

Are we a person who understands vows, commitments, and the natural order and flow of the Universe. Can there be any greater restraint on the sexual urges of a male, than to commit to one woman, until the time that one of them dies? Including sexual thought processes and sexual self-gratification urges.

Then to dedicate one-self wholly and completely to the outcome of such sexual intercourse -- children. To their correct discipline, raising, education, and guidance in their own areas of sexual gratification.

Abortion is exact opposite -- and the ultimate selfish act of a pro-creating male. To have such little consideration for a human being that did not ask to be created, but instead must be killed; for life-style convenience.

Now I bring it back to DUNE. Oh, the outcry when BH & KJA introduced Leto taking upon himself sexually the character of Kailea Vernius. Why? Because the concept of a noble man taking on a 'commoner' such as Jessica, and loving her and their child, Paul -- to the exclusion of all others.

Then Paul; King of the Universe, loves a woman such as Chani; marries Irulan to make the 'Galactic Congress' happy -- but never emotes or has sex with Irulan.

Frank knew what he was doing. Frank knew what he was writing.

We have lost 'something' in the West, our concern for our Creator, whom we identified as Chris, who restrained the males of the West -- and that 'something' is never coming back.

[MrFlibble]

Then Paul; King of the Universe, loves a woman such as Chani; marries Irulan to make the 'Galactic Congress' happy -- but never emotes or has sex with Irulan.

Frank knew what he was doing. Frank knew what he was writing.

So basically you approve of Paul cheating on his spouse and denying her the right to procreate (he forbade her to have any children, from him or anyone else, so that there'd be no Corrino contender to the throne)?

[Wolf]

Are we a person who understands vows, commitments, and the natural order and flow of the Universe.

A few issues: "are" is plural, "person" is singular. Also, this sentence is phrased as a question, but ends with a period.

Now I bring it back to DUNE. Oh, the outcry when BH & KJA introduced Leto taking upon himself sexually the character of Kailea Vernius.

"Leto taking upon himself sexually" is very awkward. It's awkward for Kailea Vernius (whoever that is; I guess I must have skimmed Dune too quickly) to be "taken upon," as if she were some sort of satchel or burden. I believe what you mean is, "Oh, the outcry when Leto sexually forced himself upon Kailea Vernius!" This is a good way of avoiding use of the word "rape" when we're unsure that the audience is all adults. If you do not mean to imply rape (which is what is implied by the objectifying terminology used), then what you ought to say is, "Oh, the outcry when Leto developed a sexual relationship with Kailea Vernius!" All of these are much less awkward and grammatically consistent.

[ErasOmnius]

So basically you approve of Paul cheating on his spouse and denying her the right to procreate (he forbade her to have any children, from him or anyone else, so that there'd be no Corrino contender to the throne)?

Good point! You're right, I don't approve. I am changing.

[MrFlibble]

It's awkward for Kailea Vernius (whoever that is; I guess I must have skimmed Dune too quickly) to be "taken upon," as if she were some sort of satchel or burden.

As you might have guessed, this character is from the prequels.

[ErasOmnius]

As you might have guessed, this character is from the prequels.

That's exactly what I am trying to say. That Brian Herbert, and his bestest friend, Kevin; chose to water down the great love that Leto I had for Jessica. He gave Leto I, a concubine a decade earlier than Jessica, Kailea Vernius -- and even gave him a child, Victor.

The outcry was great long ago, when House: Harkonnen came out; and in retrospect now in 2010, I am now glad that it was. Because Brian was watering down the sacrificial nature of Leto I -- a noble man; being exclusive with a mere concubine--Jessica, that Frank Herbert had created.

[MrFlibble]

Okay, but wouldn't this be more appropriate in the Duniverse forum?

[Wolf]

At Eras' insistence I've decided to revisit this thread.

Given that I was laboring under a few misconceptions when I posted here two years ago, I've decided that I'm comfortable with the current state of abortion law, at least in the United States. Edric's objections are largely correct: if we believe that a partial-birth abortion ban is wrong for reasons of morality, proximity to independently viable human life, or other reasons, then we should take heart in the fact that abortions, if they do occur, occur very early in the gestation cycle. Additionally, while I do still feel that 1.3 million abortions is a large number in absolute terms, it is not so large considering the total female population of the United States. Assuming that only half of American women are fertile, or of child-rearing age, this would only result in 1% of women performing abortions a year. If my worry was one of underpopulation, this percentage would not be a sufficient concern. The point at which it would be... well, we would probably have bigger problems. It seems I must confess that I was originally wrong in some of my suppositions, and that I was probably railing against what I perceived to be a stereotype of the upper/middle class American female. Well, I'm enough of an adult to admit that I can be wrong.

EDIT: Indeed, if anything, this stereotype may exist partially for the reason that it is only women with financial means who often have access to abortions. The people who abortion proponents argue need to have access to legal abortion the most--mothers in poverty, or single mothers--are precisely those who do not have access to it. If anything, the moral issue present is whether, supposing that we feel the current state of laws is just, there is is equal protection of those laws across society.

As I said earlier, we should focus less on the morality surrounding abortion, and more about the practical exigencies surrounding it. Those facts support laws that permit abortions in the first two trimesters, especially in cases of rape or incest.

Satisfied, Eras?

[athanasios]

'Life for life':  Mothers who perform abortion should be put to death. Am I right Eliyyahu or not? Shouldn't we follow the Law on this?

[Eliyyahu]

'Life for life':  Mothers who perform abortion should be put to death. Am I right Eliyyahu or not? Shouldn't we follow the Law on this?

1.  You have no clue what the Torah and Halacha (Jewish Law) have to say about abortion.

2.  You do not observe the Torah, and you reject Jewish Law as obsolete, so stop appealing to its authority in these discussions.

Beside, are you ready to cast the first stone?

Shabbat Shalom,

Eliyyahu

[Wolf]

'Life for life':  Mothers who perform abortion should be put to death. Am I right Eliyyahu or not? Shouldn't we follow the Law on this?

If you're going to kill mothers who seek abortions, wouldn't the fetus go down with the ship?

[ErasOmnius]

1.  You have no clue what the Torah and Halacha (Jewish Law) have to say about abortion.

Tell us what it says.

2.  You do not observe the Torah, and you reject Jewish Law as obsolete, so stop appealing to its authority in these discussions.

Beside, are you ready to cast the first stone?

Shabbat Shalom,

Eliyyahu

Are you saying that you want to have a peaceful day of rest? Or are you wishing him a peaceful day of rest? Or both?

[SandChigger]

Are you saying that you want to have a peaceful day of rest? Or are you wishing him a peaceful day of rest? Or both?

Is it necessary for you to be a total prick like this? Do you seriously believe your god approves of you being an ass to a Jew?

[Wolf]

ErasOmnius, you asked me to post in this thread, but you have not responded. You have only made a rude reference to my response in another thread. Do you have anything to say, or were you just trolling?