tleilaxu_spy Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 IS the baron gay?He asks for the slave with the lovely eyes.When feyd tries to kill him he talks about the needle coming out when the slave gets close.Plus he asks for the slave to be drugged because he doesn't feel like wrestling that night!Any comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Aside from a brief encounter with a BG concubine, Tanidia Nerus (said to have been in fact an artificially rejuvenated Gaius Helen Mohiam), all of the Baron's sexual liasons have been homosexual. According to the Dune Encyclopedia (written with concensus from FH), the Baron was very egotistical, and loved himself above all others. Specifically, he had a fondness for the child-self of his youth in him, and that is what he saw in the young male slaves; a reflection of his own boyish spirit. His preference towards the young boys/men is really his desire for himself.His one heterosexual affair in his life is suspected to have been curiosity brought about by his self-indulgent lifestyle, and upon hearing of the sexual techniques of the BG, wanted to experience them. When the BG presented him with a mating parter, he didn't question or argue. Some claimed that even that was not what it seemed, and that in Tanidia the Baron saw his mother, again as he had done in his youth. Either way, the relationship was turbulent and breif.Spirited away from Giedi Prime in the eighth month of pregnancy by the BG who feared for her life, Tanidia gave birth to the woman who would become Duke Leto Atreides' concubine.So whilst, yes - the Baron IS gay, I don't think his motivations are necessarily homosexual; rather, they are more narcissistic.I hope that helps answer your question :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tleilaxu_spy Posted September 29, 2004 Author Share Posted September 29, 2004 Yes that did clear things up. thank youany idea where I could find a dune encyclopedia. (don't know if thats spellt right) ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Ebay is your best bet, since I think it is out of print. I'm especially fortunate in that I managed to get a mint-condition first-edition british print copy :PHere's a similar copy to mine: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=6929473240&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW(Note that this guy is in the UK)Good luck! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectral Paladin Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Add to that that while possesing Alia the Baron wanted to have access to her senses when she had sex with Javid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 hmm that is one thing I dont agree on with the DE. suprisingly, and this may shock you, but I prefer the outlook that the prequels give.He was overwhelmingly homosexual. Not in the normal sense though, he was an extreme sadist and liked to dominate over his lovers. He is in a better term a pederist. He preferred boys over older men. I think this has to do with his control-fetish. I mean all he wants is control over everything. He even wants control after death, at first by supplanting the Royal House Corrino, and then later after death by possessing Alia.Even then though, it is also simply because well.. he likes the same sex.lol I mean there is no getting around it. Like the quotes you showed, and even when he possessed alia he wanted to be conscious of her body when she made love to one of her lovers! sheesh! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tleilaxu_spy Posted October 4, 2004 Author Share Posted October 4, 2004 Why did FH make such a cool character gay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 1) To add more depth? To diversify? To exemplify the narcism (sp) of the character? Keep thinking.2) There's something wrong with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Why did FH make such a cool character gay?IMO, FH wrote about sex in two ways; the pleasure of the experience in an induced sence (potentially like that of drug taking for example), and the process of reproduction. From what I can tell, FH's opinion of homosexuality (as it is portrayed through the books) is that it falls into the first category - pleasureable self-indulgance. Given this, it is not only fitting that the Baron be portrayed in this way, but also has other inferences. Aside from his narcissism, the Baron enjoys making others squirm with discomfort, as the accounts of his debauchery 'tell'. Doing things that others find repulsive is another of his little pleasures, and he uses it as he does his other vices; to unnerve those around him so that he can be in a more assertive and dominant position, daring to do things others do not. In this sense, it also imbues the Baron with certain ruthlessness.Speaking personally, the move to make the Baron homosexual was not only a clever move on FH's part, but makes the character all the more intriguing I think. As usual in stories, the "bad guys" always need explanations as to why they are evil, even though the "good guys" are always shallow in their background, it being assumed that audience will always identify with the latter and need no justification for their good deeds. When one considers this, the Baron naturally needs explanation. By making him homosexual in addition to other factors, FH manages to be quite subtle in revealing the Baron's personality without having to spell it out to the audience.I actually think the Baron Harkonnen is actually one of the Dune series' most interesting and well-written personalities, and it is a shame FH made no more like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Harkonnen Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Why did FH make such a cool character gay?I agree!! seems so starnge that a person like him is gay. It doesn't fit him at all I think. I find it disgusting that he is gay, and still I find him a really cool person in other ways, so I wish that Frank would rather have made him straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Charming. Personally I agree with Major_Gilbear. It's not an aspect I'd considered before, and seems to fit very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
styx Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I agree!! seems so starnge that a person like him is gay. It doesn't fit him at all I think. I find it disgusting that he is gay, and still I find him a really cool person in other ways, so I wish that Frank would rather have made him straight.please explain why you think "gays" are discusting?Also what is wrong with putting a gay in a book? as well in TV programs? If anything FH was ahead of his time by creating not only a gay charater but one in a powerful position.Also the fact that he was gay provided the storyline for why he objected the BG wanting to stud him. Look a Leto Atraidies. The sisterhood needed him and they just provided a female knowing that he would eventually have sex with her.The Baron however, if he was hetro or even Bi, teh sisterhood could also just provide him with a female to have sex with.However, since he was gay there was the whole blackmail storyline in the prequals so that the sisterhood would be able to get their child by the Baron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemafakei Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 There is certainly no reason for discriminating remarks. As the saying goes, they "will not be tolerated".But I don't think that Frank Herbert had the prequels in mind when wrote Dune - certainly not while creating the Baron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
styx Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 There is certainly no reason for discriminating remarks. As the saying goes, they "will not be tolerated".But I don't think that Frank Herbert had the prequels in mind when wrote Dune - certainly not while creating the Baron.Maybe not as such, BUT he did have notes that he refered to in the writing of the 6DUNE books. It is these notes that the prequals refered to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Harkonnen Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 please explain why you think "gays" are discusting?Also what is wrong with putting a gay in a book? as well in TV programs? If anything FH was ahead of his time by creating not only a gay charater but one in a powerful position.Also the fact that he was gay provided the storyline for why he objected the BG wanting to stud him. Look a Leto Atraidies. The sisterhood needed him and they just provided a female knowing that he would eventually have sex with her.The Baron however, if he was hetro or even Bi, teh sisterhood could also just provide him with a female to have sex with.However, since he was gay there was the whole blackmail storyline in the prequals so that the sisterhood would be able to get their child by the Barondon't put words in my mouth. I did not say that gays are disgusting...I said that I find it disgusting that the baron is gay. one reason why the baron is gay could be a thought in frank's subcounsiousness that since the baron is evil he is gay. this means that frank thinks that being gay is not way okay :PI think this is more likely than that he had a higher tolerance above gay people than others.. in the 60's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
styx Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I did not say that gays are disgusting...I said that I find it disgusting that the baron is gay. Ergo.you should have worded it better. But again you are stating it!!!!Read through what you have written (a SECOND TIME) it can only be interpreted one way. Now I might be British and an Engineer so I read things as-is to do my job but that say you find gays disgusting.you find it disgusting that the baron is gay. Thus you would not find it disgusting if he wasn't. Thus what is determining the disgust at the character "Baron Harkonnen" is his sexualityAnyway back on topic.IYes the baron was gay (as in he sleped with males). BUT he never had a relationship. It was more a power thing. Most of the time it was rape. Rape is not about sex it is about power. And the Baron was all about power and intimidation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUNWOUNDS Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 one reason why the baron is gay could be a thought in frank's subcounsiousness that since the baron is evil he is gay. this means that frank thinks that being gay is not way okay :Pahhh i see where you are going with that. So you are saying that FH is demonizing gays by making one of the lead villans gay? Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinuviel Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Hmmm... It would be interesting to go through and find all the characters who were gay, and see if they are all supposed to be "evil". Can anyone think of another gay character? I can't off the top of my head...But I must add that based on the other opinions FH expresses, he seems fairly open-minded in general. So I would be inclined to reject his making characters gay delibrately to portray them as evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUNWOUNDS Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 But I must add that based on the other opinions FH expresses, he seems fairly open-minded in general. So I would be inclined to reject his making characters gay delibrately to portray them as evil.True, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 The Fish Speakers weren't evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Harkonnen Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 even though you like frank herbert as a writer you cannot always think the best of him. you have to admit that there is a great chance he did make the baron gay because he was evil. homosexuality wasn't accepted at that time he wrote the books anywaywere fish speakers gay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Some of them were gay, but definitely not all of them. GEOD small spoiler[hide]In the book it described 2 fish speakers making out. And then Leto went on about it to Duncan who was disgusted by it.[/hide] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemafakei Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Herbert wasn't making judgements of evil: later on, in the GEOD commentary on armies and so forth, it is seen just as a phenomenon that happens to be exploited by those who desire control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Well I wouldnt consider him a homosexual. He is a pederist, loves teen and preteen children. This is a whole new ballgame and speaks of his perversion, but also of something a bit deeper. See, he craves power, and because he is always on a search for it, it even involves his sex life. He wants to dominate and control all around him including his lovers. He literally gets off on power and control, and if he can somehow put that power and control in his love life than he really enjoys himself. I wouldnt call him strictly a homosexual, but rather a boy-lover. big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orlok Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 In my eyes, he just lived a hedonistic lifestyle.He is obviously also an asthetic, and prefers perfect forms (ie his sexual partnes to still be unnaffected by age), as well as his penchant for plush surroundings and objects.Think of the globe of arrakis he comments on that is in his study.I think his predelictions are more toward the homosexual side, but if it was pure and pretty, i think he'd desire it.As to making him homosexual to make him appear evil, well thats just nonsense. and if you do believ homosexuality is evil i suggest you get out more often. (And no, I'm not, i just believe in live and let live).Sorry i just think bigotry is something to stamp out as we'd all be happier people if it were.rgdsLoK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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